Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

Zebra3 · 11-12-2021 10:53am

Given how badly they’re doing in the polls, ASAP I’d say!! 😂

MyLove4Satan · 11-12-2021 7:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118302966#Comment_118302966

I had no idea - the news seemed so bleak a few weeks back. I must say I am surprised and pleased if this pans out.

Peregrine · 11-12-2021 8:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118304010#Comment_118304010

If I had to guess, I'd say January. Maybe BusConnects before Christmas. I could be wrong.

Heartbreak Hank · 13-12-2021 11:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118302966#Comment_118302966

What are they meeting with an Italian construction firm for? To assess proposed methodologies?

marno21 · 13-12-2021 1:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118313586#Comment_118313586

RINA were appointed as Independent Engineering Experts some time back.

CatInABox · 13-12-2021 3:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118313586#Comment_118313586

As Marno said, RINA are the independent experts. They're needed on a project like this, because people can't be required to have an in-depth engineering knowledge to participate in the planning process. They'll be able to help people form an opinion on it, frame any objections or recommendations, explain anything that might not be obvious, etc.

GADRA, for example, are objecting to the ventilation shaft in their park, and are looking to get it turned into a station.

Zebra3 · 13-12-2021 4:08pm

Quick question, folks, can anyone tell me where exactly the entrances/exits are for the station at Griffith Park?

CatInABox · 13-12-2021 6:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118315566#Comment_118315566

As of the preferred route consultation, it's got one entrance, which is on the road into the Whitehall College.

So, right around here:

https://goo.gl/maps/4LLZmT478U5dfn5i8

plodder · 15-12-2021 2:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118151703#Comment_118151703

A useful companion to that would be one showing the year that each country built their last metro. Which would show that many are still building more of them. It would help to counter the impression that we missed the boat and costs are just too high now to get started.

Pete_Cavan · 15-12-2021 2:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118325122#Comment_118325122

I don't see how "costs are just too high now". The actual number may be much higher now but in relative terms, were they inflated to today, the costs of those projectsat the time are probably not much different to now. In many of those countries, labour costs are low but the state resources would be low too so they were probably similar undertakings for those countries at the time to what Metrolink would be for us now.

I'd say the cost of Metrolink including operation over say 50 years will actually be lower (in relative terms) than many of those projects. Metrolink will be packed with latest technology and will be driverless. The benefits of Metrolink will almost certainly be relatively much higher too given the functioning of modern economies, bigger population, etc.

DumbBrunette · 27-12-2021 9:33pm

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40773486.html

CatInABox · 05-01-2022 2:49pm

Some mildly interesting stuff from Gadra's chat with RINA available on their website. Nothing that someone following the project wouldn't have known or suspected already, but it is interesting to see it coming from an independent engineering perspective.

https://www.gadra.ie/latest-news/archive-articles/278-gadra-s-second-meeting-with-rina.html

zom · 05-01-2022 3:16pm

"I don't see how "costs are just too high now".(....)I'd say the cost of Metrolink including operation over say 50 years will actually be lower (in relative terms) than many of those projects. Metrolink will be packed with latest technology and will be driverless."

I love this logic. Build driveless train so instead of drivers we can pay millions to con-sultans ;)

Sam Russell · 05-01-2022 3:22pm

It is a long time since I have seen a lift (elevator) being operated by a human.

Automation is coming to where it is not already here.

Busman Paddy Lasty · 05-01-2022 3:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118421229#Comment_118421229

GADRA's questions are a fair bit more reasonable than the propaganda posters they have put up. Prior knowledge of MN shafts, active/passive ventilation yet the sign in the park states the shaft is 'useless' and urge people to demand a station in the park.

Don't know what I'm missing a shaft will have far less impact on a park than a station surely?

CatInABox · 05-01-2022 3:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118421738#Comment_118421738

Yes, some of the questions are from people that have clearly been researching it and learning about it, and then there's people that are asking questions that have been ruled out since they switched to a single bore. The pros and cons of having a large group of people interested in it, I guess.

I think that they're resigned to having a shaft there, and would prefer it to be station so at least there's some benefit to them. There's actually a surprising undercurrent of resentment at Na Fianna in the questions, some clearly feel that they're getting "shafted" because Na Fianna ruled out a station under their land.

Strumms · 05-01-2022 3:58pm

2 lines of the Paris metro are fully automated. It’s not that modern a concept. A third is under conversion.

but let’s just get the metro built and rolled out as planned here… sick of it being talked about, being tweaked, being debated….the absolute shît show of hesitation….line 14 of the Paris metro was built fully automated 24 years ago…it’s not future or new tech.

but let’s build a fûcking working metro and stop pissing about… in X years with staff attrition which can influence when or if automated metro is viable… unions will resist but driver or driverless…. ? It’s a moot point as we haven’t got a fûckin metro to be driver or driverless… we have a metroless metro…

let’s prioritize putting wheels on the tracks, people on platforms and in seats and let’s go…. Joke-shop of a selfish country with every special interest group pandered to…the interest of the general population, the people paying to build it ? Wanting a metro, needing it ? What about them / us ? Build the fûcking thing !

bennyineire · 05-01-2022 5:46pm

I was in Lille a few years back, fully automated system. Work perfectly fine

Peregrine · 19-01-2022 9:42pm

https://m.independent.ie/news/environment/cost-escalation-warning-on-dublins-metrolink-if-officials-fail-to-co-operate-41258251.html

Cost escalation warning on Dublin’s MetroLink if officials fail to co-operate

Zebra3 · 19-01-2022 10:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118502458#Comment_118502458

Just been reading that.

Thank you for your contribution, Mr Ambassador.

MyLove4Satan · 20-01-2022 12:30am

"Mr Serpi, a native of Rome, arranged the event to share his thoughts on transport and planning in Ireland after four years living here.

He was shocked by the hours people spent commuting here and said an underground metro was essential."

Ah but Rome never had pathological professional contrarians like Sean Barrett and Colm McCarty to deal with. Let alone RTE reporters on the opening of every successful rail service for the last 40 years going 'But will you actually use it?" to some random passenger following terms such as 'profitable' being constantly mentioned.

dublinman1990 · 20-01-2022 1:42am

It all hinges really as to what the Government will do with the business case for the project. If they approve it for people who live in Swords; it would be a big step forward to get to that RO stage.

But I don't know what the naysayers will say about it if the business case was approved by the Government. All of these economists who are against the project are really not that experienced in going into the underground areas of the city in seeing the extent of it's design and day to day functions of how it works for it's inhabitants.

Most people living here in the capital who are either not involved or qualified with the complexities of how their own home patch works day to day when underground don't have that luxury to complain about it either.

They could probably show an interest in how it works. But complaining about it with no realistic argument coming into support it must feel a painfully hard slog on your senses to experience every single day.

If the Government gives the project merit to let it go ahead to planning for the RO with ABP. That would be pretty good news for the city. Although I do understand that it won't be an easy job to get it done if the RO gets approval.

cgcsb · 20-01-2022 10:29am

MetroNorth had RO, an approved business case and was even put out to tender. Until the cheque is signed and there a tbm in the ground, I'm not buying it myself.

D.L.R. · 20-01-2022 12:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504409#Comment_118504409

Agree, tbms in the ground before I believe this country is actually capable of building a metro. Jury's still out.

But Metro North was a daft design, more like a rough draft than a serious proposal.

What it did was expose the level of cluelessness in the Irish govt about building underground rail.

L1011 · 20-01-2022 12:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118505080#Comment_118505080

No, it was a fully functional design with planning permission (excepting some required changes on the overground section north of Swords)

Hotblack Desiato · 20-01-2022 2:14pm

It really is embarrassing but I don't blame the Italian ambassador one bit. We like to give the image of a modern well-run country but the reality is different.

Remember when the German ambassador had some home truths for us just before the crash and we in our hubris basically told him to f*ck off?

D.L.R. · 20-01-2022 4:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118505134#Comment_118505134

I said it was a daft design, not thought through properly at all.

L1011 · 20-01-2022 6:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118506491#Comment_118506491

You also said it was a draft which it clearly wasn't.

I'd rather have it operational and be looking at improvements and expansions than where we are now

D.L.R. · 20-01-2022 8:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118507119#Comment_118507119

No I said it was like a draft, because it was so bad.

L1011 · 21-01-2022 12:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118507800#Comment_118507800

There was very little wrong with it. Compared to having absolutely nothing, I'll take your idea of bad (that few will agree with) thanks

D.L.R. · 21-01-2022 8:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118509581#Comment_118509581

There was a lot wrong with it, was never going to get built even without the crash.

iffandonlyif · 21-01-2022 2:12pm

Five metro lines had been built in Rome, he said, despite the difficulties of construction in the historic city. “Try to imagine what it means to have done four, no, five lines in Rome. In a city like Rome, to dig 100m down in Rome, what does that mean? But we have done it!”

What classical heritage is to Rome, front gardens are to Dublin.

Anne Graham is quoted as saying at that event, ‘The impression MetroLink is postponed is something I’m surprised to hear because that is certainly not the case.’ A bit disingenuous given that the southern section was scrapped and no sensible person thinks NTA doesn’t still expect to make the Green Line conversion in the future.

Hotblack Desiato · 21-01-2022 7:05pm

It's been postponed. I wish they'd stop lying, they're not fooling anyone.

Peregrine · 21-01-2022 7:42pm

The more people keep saying it's been postponed, the easier it becomes to postpone it.

It hasn't been postponed. It hasn't even been brought to government where a decision to postpone it could be made. The last time it was brought to government was years ago. It's been horribly managed and is now very delayed both at design phase and construction phase. I've already posted their timeline for the next 12 years showing the extended construction phase. They're still working on the railway order application and the DoT and DPER are still reviewing the business case. Only then will it be brought to government.

cgcsb · 21-01-2022 8:23pm

"The more people keep saying it's been postponed, the easier it becomes to postpone it".

What else can people think? Project was announced 4 years ago (this version of it) and not even a planning application has been made. Human lifespans are limited and all. And there's been multiple versions of this project for the last 50 years.

LXFlyer · 21-01-2022 9:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118513787#Comment_118513787

To be fair every capital project (be it transport or whatever) now has to be brought to government twice - once prior to planning application and second time (and more importantly) after planning permission is granted.

But I have to again question the NTA's management of the process - no deadline has been met. They really are appalling at this.

CatInABox · 21-01-2022 9:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118514386#Comment_118514386

The entire process has also been rejigged thanks to the EU, we've now got to have public participation on major projects like this, way earlier in the process, and far more extensive too.

Podge_irl · 26-01-2022 11:12am

It is facing some delays, it has not been postponed. They are very different things.

jumpinsheep · 31-01-2022 7:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118513787#Comment_118513787

Thanks for those screenshots; it seems they were probably made end of July 2021 (I guess that's what the blu vertical line there indicates).

In Nov 2021, newspapers articles started mentioning a possible 10 yrs delay, then the Taoiseach told the Dáil that MetroLink "has not been postponed for another decade", then NTA's CEO Anne Graham comments, etc. etc. - who knows how much the timeline has changed, from when those screenshots were taken...

Now that covid19 restrictions are being lifted, all the relevant parties will hopefully move swiftly with whatever needs to be done.

marno21 · 31-01-2022 10:10pm

Not sure if I/anyone else posted this here yet. There was an article in the Sunday Times in October saying that Level 5 restrictions had interrupted work at the Land Registry and this had caused lengthy delays in getting ready documents for the proposed CPO.

I've heard of other people having similar issues with Departments being shut from January 2021 for several months so this wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

marno21 · 01-02-2022 3:51pm

TII have tendered for MetroLink Client Partner Support Services

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/206201/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/publictenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

13 year contract with a €200m contract value

Podge_irl · 01-02-2022 4:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118561557#Comment_118561557

The Nov '21 articles were, bluntly, completely wrong and based on a pretty basic comprehension error of the latest NTA plan.

Hotblack Desiato · 02-02-2022 2:07pm

I'll start to believe it when there's a TBM in the ground.

CatInABox · 02-02-2022 2:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118570310#Comment_118570310

Yeah, whether your an optimist or a pessimist regarding this project, I think that's a view we all hold.

marno21 · 03-02-2022 12:46pm

According to Peter Walsh, 13.5 years from now is a best case scenario.

2 years at An Bord Pleanala, 2.5 years of procurement and 8-9 years of construction.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40799475.html

Peregrine · 03-02-2022 1:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118575027#Comment_118575027

That.. doesn't make any sense. They've been talking about parallel procurement for years now. A bizarre statement from the CEO.

loyatemu · 03-02-2022 1:58pm

3 years further slippage in the 6 months since the most recent plan - impressive even by TII standards.

How could this be done quicker - surely other countries are capable of building a single metro line from conception to opening without it taking literally 20 years (and that's ignoring any previous work borrowed from Metro North).

xper · 03-02-2022 3:03pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dublin-metrolink-to-be-delayed-until-2035-at-the-earliest-1.4792827

“You can imagine how people are alarmed after €88 million [sic], we don’t have a MetroLink. Can you understand that frustration Mr Walsh?” he said.

“Not really,” Mr Walsh responded. “I take your word for you if you are frustrated.”

Sickening stuff in front of the PAC this morning from the TII CEO. For that level of incompetence and indifference, he should not be in the role.

The NTA and TII seem to be trying to outdo each other in bad news this week.

marno21 · 03-02-2022 3:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118575893#Comment_118575893

I don't understand that frustration either, like the TII CEO. This is a multibillion euro project. There is absolutely no reason for frustration that MetroLink hasn't been built after €88m spent. It's a tiny proportion of the overall budget.

The 2021 construction start date and the 2027 completion date should have been revised years ago. They are wildly inaccurate.

Podge_irl · 03-02-2022 3:48pm

I mean, its a terribly phrased question though the response leaves something to be desired. The expenditure so far doesn't strike me as particularly out of the ordinary for a planning process of this scale. The focus should have been on the timeline slippage.

Peter Walsh, the chief executive of the agency that has primary responsibility for the project, told the Public Accounts Committee that the best-case scenario would see the project take 13.5 years until completion from the current date.

That allows two years for a railway order to be processed by An Bord Pleanala, 2.5 years for a procurement process for a contractor — which is likely to be a Public-Private Partnership — and between eight and nine years for construction and commissioning.

I would like to see his actual wording on this as it wouldn't be the first time the media got things confused. The 2 years for railway order and 2.5 years for procurement are not necessarily consecutive.

Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

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