Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

cgcsb

Peregrine wrote: »

The more people who keep saying these projects will be dropped, the more acceptable it will be to people if they are dropped and the more likely it will be to be dropped.

If its a case of you have to believe to make it real, a la the tooth fairy or santa clause, then good luck, won't happen.

Pete_Cavan

Akesh wrote: »

I agree but the DAA will fight a metrolink tooth and nail unless the government will replace their income stream from car rentals and car parking which would defeat the purpose of project from a cost perspective. You also have the banks and car manufacturers rowing in as they obviously don't want to lose potential income streams.

There is also the problem that the majority of people using cars to the airport have no interest in travelling into the city centre anyway or wouldn't see the benefits of this line considering how disjointed Dublin's transport is.

As per your second paragraph, Metrolink likely won't make a huge difference to parking income to the DAA, there will still be plenty of people driving there. It might remove the need for some private airport car parks further away but parking next to the airport will remain attractive.

Sam Russell

Akesh wrote: »

I agree but the DAA will fight a metrolink tooth and nail unless the government will replace their income stream from car rentals and car parking which would defeat the purpose of project from a cost perspective. You also have the banks and car manufacturers rowing in as they obviously don't want to lose potential income streams.

There is also the problem that the majority of people using cars to the airport have no interest in travelling into the city centre anyway or wouldn't see the benefits of this line considering how disjointed Dublin's transport is.

I doubt that the take up with the metro will have much of a difference to the DAA. The growth in passenger traffic will offset any major loss of car park revenue.

Banks and car manufacturers - why would they care? They have far bigger issues elsewhere.

marno21

Metrolink would also probably help them with Dublin Airport Central and other similar ventures in the area.

It's all swings and roundabouts at the end of the day.

Stopping Metrolink because of car parking revenue is nuts.

Peregrine

This is silly. daa, the banks and car manufacturers haven't objected so far so I'm not sure why they would now.

ncounties

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

As per your second paragraph, Metrolink likely won't make a huge difference to parking income to the DAA, there will still be plenty of people driving there. It might remove the need for some private airport car parks further away but parking next to the airport will remain attractive.

Who in their right mind, that lives along the proposed Metro Link route (bearing in mind it goes through some of the lowest car ownership areas in the country), currently would park their car at the airport when they go on their holiday? I've lived in several locations in Dublin over the past year, and when I have been flying out of Dublin, have never drove there.

Pete_Cavan

ncounties wrote: »

Who in their right mind, that lives along the proposed Metro Link route (bearing in mind it goes through some of the lowest car ownership areas in the country), currently would park their car at the airport when they go on their holiday? I've lived in several locations in Dublin over the past year, and when I have been flying out of Dublin, have never drove there.

I didn't suggest that lives along the proposed Metrolink route would park their car at the airport when they go on their holiday. Most of those people likely use public transport already or taxis to get to the airport so using Metrolink instead doesn't make a difference to DAA parking revenue. The same applies to lots of people in and around Dublin, they don't drive to the airport anyway so if they take Metrolink, it doesn't effect parking revenue. Post Metrolink, there will still be a significant portion of the population for whom driving to the airport is the most attractive option, these people likely represent the vast majority of parking revenues for DAA and as Metrolink wont be an option for them, that revenue remains the same. My point is that Metrolink probably wont have much of an impact on DAA parking revenue, they may have to get more competitive with their pricing but there will still be significant demand for airport parking.

salmocab

I live in south Dublin, I use or at least used to use the airport regularly. I’d always drive to the airport if going on a holiday with luggage and kids, I’d consider public transport if I was going to a match in England or France for a couple of nights with my mates. I’d be more likely to use metro to get there for short trips. With luggage and kids I can’t see too many using metro unless the stop is very close to the house. I don’t see it affecting the parking too much for long stay.

Zebra3

salmocab wrote: »

I live in south Dublin, I use or at least used to use the airport regularly. I’d always drive to the airport if going on a holiday with luggage and kids, I’d consider public transport if I was going to a match in England or France for a couple of nights with my mates. I’d be more likely to use metro to get there for short trips. With luggage and kids I can’t see too many using metro unless the stop is very close to the house. I don’t see it affecting the parking too much for long stay.

Staff and travellers doing short trips away using PT instead would be a massive win.

salmocab

Zebra3 wrote: »

Staff and travellers doing short trips away using PT instead would be a massive win.

Oh definitely, I hope my post wasn’t suggesting anything other than people with luggage and kids are more likely to opt for the car. It will be great to have a link. I’ve worked in the airport plenty of times and it’s a pain of a place to sort parking in for the day and a right pain to get to by bus from most places

p_haugh

salmocab wrote: »

I live in south Dublin, I use or at least used to use the airport regularly. I’d always drive to the airport if going on a holiday with luggage and kids, I’d consider public transport if I was going to a match in England or France for a couple of nights with my mates. I’d be more likely to use metro to get there for short trips. With luggage and kids I can’t see too many using metro unless the stop is very close to the house. I don’t see it affecting the parking too much for long stay.

I'm also in South Dublin myself, and most occasions I would get the Aircoach to the airport as its pretty much door to door. If I had a lot of luggage or if more than 2 of us were going to the airport, I would be getting a lift from the parents (yet to get my drivers licence). If I was going away with both my parents, most of the time they would drive to the airport and park in one of the long term car parks.

Unfortunately I'm on the coast side of the city so I wouldn't really benifit from the metro (or luas and change to metro for that matter), so the Aircoach would still be my main option.

Sam Russell

p_haugh wrote: »

I'm also in South Dublin myself, and most occasions I would get the Aircoach to the airport as its pretty much door to door. If I had a lot of luggage or if more than 2 of us were going to the airport, I would be getting a lift from the parents (yet to get my drivers licence). If I was going away with both my parents, most of the time they would drive to the airport and park in one of the long term car parks.

Unfortunately I'm on the coast side of the city so I wouldn't really benifit from the metro (or luas and change to metro for that matter), so the Aircoach would still be my main option.

The Metrolink would be the choice for you, either going from SSG or Tara St. Dart would serve Tara St, and Luas would serve SSG. Buses would serve both, but heavy luggage might be a bit of a problem. Metrolink will be every few minutes, while Aircoach is one or a few times per hour depending on the route.

Certainly coming from the airport, Metrolink is a winner. You go as close as you can and then get a taxi or a lift. You would be home in thirty minutes. Aircoach would be an hour plus waiting for it to arrive.

salmocab

p_haugh wrote: »

I'm also in South Dublin myself, and most occasions I would get the Aircoach to the airport as its pretty much door to door. If I had a lot of luggage or if more than 2 of us were going to the airport, I would be getting a lift from the parents (yet to get my drivers licence). If I was going away with both my parents, most of the time they would drive to the airport and park in one of the long term car parks.

Unfortunately I'm on the coast side of the city so I wouldn't really benifit from the metro (or luas and change to metro for that matter), so the Aircoach would still be my main option.

Air coache is great but just like the metro unless your close to the stop generally you wouldn’t drag luggage along too far. People will generally take the easiest way to the airport for a holiday.

p_haugh

salmocab wrote: »

Air coache is great but just like the metro unless your close to the stop generally you wouldn’t drag luggage along too far. People will generally take the easiest way to the airport for a holiday.

Indeed, I'm 5 minutes walk from a 700 stop and a 702 stop so it's no issue for me. And if it came to it and I wanted to get the 703, its about 15 minutes walk down to the rock road

LXFlyer

How people travel to/from the airport from within Dublin for a trip awy really depends on where they are coming from, how much luggage there is, and the nature of the trip.

If it's a short trip away with a cabin bag, then the public transport (even with a change en route) is more likely to be an attractive option.

But adding more than a single change en route, additional/larger luggage, or extra family members will make taking a taxi or driving the preferred option.

Metrolink, I would suggest, facilitate airport employees to a greater scale.

As for the DAA, there have been no negative soundings from them, so I think that is a complete red herring.

I would suggest that a positive feature of Metrolink is that it services the Airport, but there is a much bigger picture than that.

Akesh

Sam Russell wrote: »

I doubt that the take up with the metro will have much of a difference to the DAA. The growth in passenger traffic will offset any major loss of car park revenue.

Banks and car manufacturers - why would they care? They have far bigger issues elsewhere.

DAA makes far more per car rental/parking than it does per passenger.

Why would they care? What kind of a question is that?

LXFlyer

Akesh wrote: »

DAA makes far more per car rental/parking than it does per passenger.

Why would they care? What kind of a question is that?

They have not made any negative soundings to date, so why are they going to now?

Remember that we already went through the original Metro North railway order process without a DAA objection in this regard.

This is a red herring on your part.

Sam Russell

Akesh wrote: »

DAA makes far more per car rental/parking than it does per passenger.

Why would they care? What kind of a question is that?

What proportion of the 30 million passengers that use Dublin Airport will use the Metrolink? How many will still drive to the airport? Many of those that use Metrolink will use it instead of buses, and many will be workers at the airport.

Shedite27

Irish people going to the Airport porbably have their preferred route already, those on the Metro route will probably take it, can't imagine many making a transfer to get there.

Inbound traffic is a different question, seeing as the driving/lift option is off the table for most. That's where the Metro will take passangers from Aircoach/Taxis

kalych

Shedite27 wrote: »

Irish people going to the Airport porbably have their preferred route already, those on the Metro route will probably take it, can't imagine many making a transfer to get there.

Inbound traffic is a different question, seeing as the driving/lift option is off the table for most. That's where the Metro will take passangers from Aircoach/Taxis

This is in no way meant as offense to this poster in particular, but this boomer mentality needs to change. By the time Metrolink is built boomers will all be retired and more millennials and gen z will be entering the workforce and traveling for business or work. These generations have vastly different views on car ownership. We need to stop looking at infrastructure in the rear view mirror and start looking at developing trends.

Shedite27

kalych wrote: »

This is in no way meant as offense to this poster in particular, but this boomer mentality needs to change. By the time Metrolink is built boomers will all be retired and more millennials and gen z will be entering the workforce and traveling for business or work. These generations have vastly different views on car ownership. We need to stop looking at infrastructure in the rear view mirror and start looking at developing trends.

Aside from the obvious that business travel is gone the way of the dodo....

I hope you're right, but outside of those on the MetroLink line, we've a long way to go before we've a public transport infrastructure that someone's gonna rely on to make transfers on without worrying about missing a flight. Works in other countries where you have one metro line connecting to another metro line.

kalych

Shedite27 wrote: »

Aside from the obvious that business travel is gone the way of the dodo....

I hope you're right, but outside of those on the MetroLink line, we've a long way to go before we've a public transport infrastructure that someone's gonna rely on to make transfers on without worrying about missing a flight. Works in other countries where you have one metro line connecting to another metro line.

That much we definitely agree on. I do however think it's a bit of a circular argument from some in that we don't want to invest into heavy rail too much because people primarily use cars to drive everywhere, while at the same time suggesting that our infrastructure is not good enough or connected enough to be relied upon. It's a chicken and egg story and something has got to give first.

LXFlyer

Shedite27 wrote: »

Aside from the obvious that business travel is gone the way of the dodo....

I hope you're right, but outside of those on the MetroLink line, we've a long way to go before we've a public transport infrastructure that someone's gonna rely on to make transfers on without worrying about missing a flight. Works in other countries where you have one metro line connecting to another metro line.

That’s why BusConnects, Metrolink, and DART expansion are all needed.

Sam Russell

LXFlyer wrote: »

That’s why BusConnects, Metrolink, and DART expansion are all needed.

And needed now.

The Gov should move them all into a priority list and get them accelerated for early completion. Get the diggers and TBMs in the ground. Look at how Dublin CC got the cycle infrastructure built while no-one was watching.

Funding is currently cheap (close to zero interest) and European funding should be available.

Kellyconor1982

kalych wrote: »

This is in no way meant as offense to this poster in particular, but this boomer mentality needs to change. By the time Metrolink is built boomers will all be retired and more millennials and gen z will be entering the workforce and traveling for business or work. These generations have vastly different views on car ownership. We need to stop looking at infrastructure in the rear view mirror and start looking at developing trends.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but until we have multiple metro lines, I think the majority of people using this metrolink line solely for going to the airport will use their cars or the aircoach. I don't think you can pin that on the agegroup born before the early 80s. People use piblic transport if it is reliable and easy to access. The continentals have both of these things - bar a few exceptions we don't.

I believe that regardless this line will be a gigantic success and in the next 20-30 years, we will have a top class public transport system. I am very cynical about our political parties, but I do think there is enough buy in to this project to get it over the line and it will lead to more lines being built then.

Synode

Kellyconor1982 wrote: »

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but until we have multiple metro lines, I think the majority of people using this metrolink line solely for going to the airport will use their cars or the aircoach. I don't think you can pin that on the agegroup born before the early 80s. People use piblic transport if it is reliable and easy to access. The continentals have both of these things - bar a few exceptions we don't.

I believe that regardless this line will be a gigantic success and in the next 20-30 years, we will have a top class public transport system. I am very cynical about our political parties, but I do think there is enough buy in to this project to get it over the line and it will lead to more lines being built then.

I've been shocked the last couple of times at how expensive parking has been at the airport. If there was a metro link I'd have no problem ditching the car and bringing the family on public transport to the airport

bk

Kellyconor1982 wrote: »

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but until we have multiple metro lines, I think the majority of people using this metrolink line solely for going to the airport will use their cars or the aircoach.

Well with the DART+ project, we will basically have multiple high quality mass transit lines covering a great deal of the city.

Transferring from DART unto the Metro to the airport will be a quick, easy and attractive proposition for people on the Maynooth, Hazelhatch or South Coast DART lines with no more then a 5 minute wait for a transfer.

Add to that Busconnects and Luas extensions are we aren't too far off a comprehensive transport network in Dublin.

dublinman1990

The issue with Aircoach is that despite it being a nice to have for the people of Dublin & other parts of the country; it is not a secure service in the sense that it's run by the private sector. If demand for Aircoach sees a drop after Covid; it would be difficult to see how people doing international travel into Ireland would come back to normal levels if people are WFH more often in other countries worldwide in the short to medium term.

One thing to take into account is the cost of the fares on private airport bus services vs using Metrolink on Leap card.

When Metrolink is used on the Leap card; it can offer a bigger advantage to people by already offering cheaper transfers to people with using a variety of different PT options in & around Dublin while using Metrolink with other modes like the bus when BusConnects gets rolled out in the city. If people see that cheaper option available to them when going into the Airport; they would gladly take it without regretting their decision. Another thing about the Metrolink is the frequency. Frequency sells big time while using it when it offers an abundance of metro trains on that stretch of line between Swords & Charlemont. Metro West & other regular bus services in Dublin after BusConnects and expanded Dart & Luas networks will also offer similar frequency to Metrolink which would make people's options a lot easier if they are thinking of going on a journey to the Airport or other places on that service along with using other frequent modes of transport.

The level of demand that has been seen on private bus services offering routes to Dublin Airport before Covid was dictated by the number of people that were able to use the service if they wanted to pay a premium rate for using it to get to their destination quicker. But what happens if that level of demand afterwards is on a noticeable decline post Covid? Services will eventually have to become scaled back because of reduced passenger demand for their routes. The operators would then have to make very hard decisions on whether or not to keep the routes running at all if they are not maintaining a profit for the company.

The private sector cannot run bus services like a charity. It is a highly expensive business to run if the people running the business have the funds to afford it. A lot of money has to made from it to make it successful and to allow it to keep it's fleet running on the road for it's customers.

In Ireland's case; a lot of the commercial bus routes that run bus services to Dublin Airport are run by companies run from here in Ireland or by multinationals.

The world after Covid-19 does appear to make these services out to be more vulnerable to have further declines in demand because a lot of customers intending to use these services may not decide to come here to do trade or stay on holidays with us as we live in a much smaller country compared to the rest of Europe.

A lot of people's work routines & tourism patterns have to be seen to be returning to normal in a huge way after Covid-19 is finished with huge numbers of people doing international travel. We won't even know what level of passenger demand is going to come back when these bus services at Dublin Airport get fully back to normal once all of the Covid restrictions are lifted from governments worldwide, including our own, once this pandemic is officially over. But it will be interesting to see it happen.

It is going to be a tough journey ahead to get these services back to normal once that happens. But building Metrolink would be a really good start to actually get those critical numbers of people back working again at normal levels when travelling to or from the Airport becomes safer again because life still has to continue as our world cannot be seen to stand still after Covid is over. The world's population has to continue to keep moving & do business with each other whether we like it or not.

bk

A few points.

Metro's being a challenger to Airport coach services is certainly nothing new. Having travelled extensively around Europe, many if not most airports have a Metro connection. And yet Airport coach services still seem to operate and thrive at those airports.

Sometimes I've taken the Metro, but often I've just jumped on the coach instead, even when a Metro was available.

The trouble of having to drag a big bag down the stairs of a Metro station, squeeze onto the Metro with the bag, shoulder to shoulder with lots of other people in hot weather, yuck. Sometimes I'd say feck it and just pay the few euros extra to just throw the bag under the bus and have the comfort of a nice seat on an air-conditioned coach. In the scheme of a twice a year holiday, the cost can be worth it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Metro will impact Aircoach, etc. But I think they are fundamentally very different services and I think both can thrive side by side. To be honest I'd say that the Airlink 747 would be in much more trouble. €7 for a city bus!

In terms of business travellers, I agree big questions about the future of business travel, even post Covid19. But business travellers don't normally take Metros or coaches anyway, it is almost always Taxi's or car rentals, since the company is paying anyway.

Also I'd point out that the intercity routes are quiet different. From my experience of the Cork route, I'd say a good 3/4 of the passengers seem to be city to city and not airport bound.

Of course this Covid19 situation could well put some of these companies out of business, but I do see a bright future for coach services, even when Metrolink has been built.

Lord Glentoran

bk wrote: »

A few points.

Metros being a challenger to Airport coach services is certainly nothing new. Having travelled extensively around Europe, many if not most airports have a Metro connection. And yet Airport coach services still seem to operate and thrive at those airports.

Sometimes I've taken the Metro, but often I've just jumped on the coach instead, even when a Metro was available.

The trouble of having to drag a big bag down the stairs of a Metro station, squeeze onto the Metro with the bag, shoulder to shoulder with lots of other people in hot weather, yuck. Sometimes I'd say feck it and just pay the few euros extra to just throw the bag under the bus and have the comfort of a nice seat on an air-conditioned coach. In the scheme of a twice a year holiday, the cost can be worth it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Metro will impact Aircoach, etc. But I think they are fundamentally very different services and I think both can thrive side by side. To be honest I'd say that the Airlink 747 would be in much more trouble. €7 for a city bus!

In terms of business travellers, I agree big questions about the future of business travel, even post Covid19. But business travellers don't normally take Metros or coaches anyway, it is almost always Taxis or car rentals, since the company is paying anyway.

Also I'd point out that the intercity routes are quite different. From my experience of the Cork route, I'd say a good 3/4 of the passengers seem to be city to city and not airport bound.

Of course this Covid19 situation could well put some of these companies out of business, but I do see a bright future for coach services, even when Metrolink has been built.

Being stuck in traffic and talking longer airport to city centre than a metro - that’s a yuck from me. Horses for courses.