Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

Sam Russell

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Which goes to show Colm McCarthy's high calibre and the low calibre of our journalists and I say this even though I disagree with him on his assessment.

McCarthy's assertion that the Metrolink is just a tram is completely false. The Metrolink capacity is a multiple of the Green Line capacity. Its frequency is also significantly higher, so its capability of carrying passengers is many multiples. He also assumed that the airport was the only trip generator, forgetting (or was unaware) that DCU is on the route, together with the Mater Hospital, O'Connell St, Sandyford, etc.

McCarthy's assertion that the current bus service to the airport is adequate is clearly nonsense as to cope with the 30 million passengers, rising to 40 million before the Metrolink goes into service, by car or bus would be impossible, requiring buses every few seconds, and a huge expansion of car parks. The roads cannot currently cope with existing traffic.

So how high is his calibre when he is so wrong on such basic issues?

He is against spending on infrastructure - particularly public transport infrastructure, and he reserves a special place in hell for rail based infrastructure.

cgcsb

He must think the other developed countries in the world are stupid and we're really smart?

lbj666

Marcusm wrote: »

The main sewer alongside the canal bringing the waste of 100,000 or more people? I can see it as being capable of being moved irrespective of the available funds. Surfacing at Charlemont, IMO, was always a bad idea. The option to surface parallel to the green line in the lane behind Moyne Road (just at or beyond Beechwood) looks as if it would have been deliverable and did not require the loss of many dwellings (unlike say the apartment block in town).

Misread the tread, i was thinking of the sewer from Townsend st. to ringend

LXFlyer

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Which goes to show Colm McCarthy's high calibre and the low calibre of our journalists and I say this even though I disagree with him on his assessment.

It does not show anything of the sort re Colm McCarthy when it comes to rail infrastructure.

But what it does show is a lack of journalistic expertise in the area of transport in this country which is unfortunate.

cgcsb

LXFlyer wrote: »

It does not show anything of the sort re Colm McCarthy when it comes to rail infrastructure.

But what it does show is a lack of journalistic expertise in the area of transport in this country which is unfortunate.

Most economists are just accountants with opinions who think in 2 dimensional terms but the Irish media seems to regard them as demi-gods of academia.

Sam Russell

cgcsb wrote: »

Most economists are just accountants with opinions who think in 2 dimensional terms but the Irish media seems to regard them as demi-gods of academia.

You are being too generous on their thinking ability. You 2 dimensions are one too many.

The Irish media, many academics, and many politicians are too centred on easy targets and too myopic to get any real thinking done.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

Most economists are just accountants with opinions who think in 2 dimensional terms but the Irish media seems to regard them as demi-gods of academia.

Well as an accountant I take exception to that comment. Talk about using nonsensical clichés.

Any good accountant can and does a broader view than "2 dimensional terms".

cgcsb

LXFlyer wrote: »

Well as an accountant I take exception to that comment. Talk about using nonsensical clichés.

Any good accountant can and does a broader view than "2 dimensional terms".

Apologies if it sounded that way. I don't think accountants are bound to 2 dimensional thinking, but I think most economists are. My point was that the media aren't going to seek an accountants view on it, yet someone claiming the title of 'economist' whith the same education is treated as all knowing.

donvito99

This was featured over in the WRC thread. I didn't actually realise that the Greens were completely against Metro:

We would keep open the proposed route of the Metro North from St. Stephen’s Green to
Swords if a viable case can be made for its construction.

https://www.greenparty.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Transport-Policy.pdf

"If a viable case can be made for its construction". The cheek.

Pixel Eater

donvito99 wrote: »

This was featured over in the WRC thread. I didn't actually realise that the Greens were completely against Metro:



https://www.greenparty.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Transport-Policy.pdf

"If a viable case can be made for its construction". The cheek.

That's crazy! I assume they mean the truncated Metrolink and not the original Metro North proposal.

A viable case for it's construction?! Are they taking the piss?! We're well past that stage, it's almost at construction stage!
They were one of the the main parties that scuppered the southern section, will they not be happy until they wreck the whole thing? Truely bizzare line to take for a 'green' party.

noelfirl

donvito99 wrote: »

This was featured over in the WRC thread. I didn't actually realise that the Greens were completely against Metro:

https://www.greenparty.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Transport-Policy.pdf

"If a viable case can be made for its construction". The cheek.

From the same document:

Following the completion of the Kildare Route Project Phase 2, we would give priority to the Interconnector (DART Undeground) between Spencer dock and Inchcore.

Cretinous. Utterly utterly cretinous.

plodder

The Program for Government trumps individual party documents though:

Program for Government wrote:

Specifically, the Government will prioritise plans for the delivery of Metrolink, Luas and other light rail expansion, DART expansion and interconnector and Bus Connects in Dublin, Cork, Galway, and Limerick.

cgcsb

I don't really think they are pro environment for many reasons I won't get into here. But let's be clear a viable business case existed in 1975 for metro north. Demand has hardly decreased since. Or do they think it has?

donvito99

cgcsb wrote: »

I don't really think they are pro environment for many reasons I won't get into here. But let's be clear a viable business case existed in 1975 for metro north. Demand has hardly decreased since. Or do they think it has?

There is an article in the IT today which notes the support for economic regression amongst the more radical Greens as a good way to reduce our emissions.

Perhaps the Greens don't see the Metro as viable if they have plans to take us back to the 1950s?

Sam Russell

donvito99 wrote: »

There is an article in the IT today which notes the support for economic regression amongst the more radical Greens as a good way to reduce our emissions.

Perhaps the Greens don't see the Metro as viable if they have plans to take us back to the 1950s?

The Metrolink would have been viable in the 1950s, and every decade since.

L1011

Salazar era Portugal managed to build a metro when completely broke in the late 50s, which despite having major flaws at the time still forms the backbone of the current Lisbon metro. So 50s metro ideas would probably do at this stage!

Grandeeod

Podge_irl wrote: »

It is an already live project and will be prioritised. None of the PfG may be costed, but other things will fall away before metrolink.

You are not an anti-Metro head but you are clearly a metro doom monger. It may, ultimately, not happen but people hopping on every single potential issue and proclaiming it the death knell is tiresome.

If I may respond to your post as I believe I have the right to respond because you got a bit personal.

So now I have a new label as a metro doom monger. :rolleyes: First of all I don't hop on every single potential issue. I don't post here very much although I read it more frequently. When I do post I agree the content of the posts express doubt about it being built. However I am not some randomer with a passing interest attempting to disrupt the thread. I'm not far off 50 years of age. For 40 plus years of my life on this planet, I've been listening to talk about DART expansion/Underground. For 20 of those years I've been listening to talk about a metro line in Dublin. For a period of 4 years in the early to late 00s, I campaigned for the development of rail based transport in Dublin. To keep on topic, I met many Government TDs and opposition TDs in relation to metro. I also met with state agencies and consultants in relation to same.

It was via these meetings and others that I developed the belief that they don't actually understand or care. They know it's not an election issue as a FG spokesperson on Transport once admitted to me in a private meeting in Leinster House that they won't lose their seat over any aspect of metro.The state agencies like the former RPA were the same. Follow the Government spin and simply keep the job. I dealt with three transport Ministers during that 4 year period. Two of them were absolute spoofers and that was when the country was awash with money. To the very end one of them insisted a certain project would go ahead. It never would. The thinking among senior civil servants is simple. Play to the audience that don't really care and build the cheapest projects to pacify and look interested. I predicted on these forums that MN would be reinvented by a new Government and it was. That was in 2010.

I have absolutely no wish to disrupt the thread, but I do have an awful lot of credibility and dislike my "negative" posts being branded like I'm some sort of whinger. I want to see a metro in Dublin. I've wanted to see an underground railway in Dublin since first seeing the original DART plans. I'm sick to death of looking at traffic issue pieces in Dublin on TV right back to the late 70s. Politicians have failed us and from experience, I see nothing different from the current crop no matter how much money we have. As for Journalists, there are no journalists left that have an informed interest and nobody feeding them any factual info. Therefore the crap they write is infuriating.

Sam Russell

Mod: Cut out the personal attacks on posters.

roadmaster

L1011 wrote: »

Salazar era Portugal managed to build a metro when completely broke in the late 50s, which despite having major flaws at the time still forms the backbone of the current Lisbon metro. So 50s metro ideas would probably do at this stage!

We where able to build Ardnacrusha in the 20's when we where broke and just out of a civil war

In the late 40's we where able to start rural electrification

In the 50's we where able to build social housing projects

In the 2020's there is no reason this state cant build metros,Dart Undergrounds and complete the motorway network at the same time. All it takes is leadership

Pete_Cavan

Grandeeod wrote: »

If I may respond to your post as I believe I have the right to respond because you got a bit personal.

So now I have a new label as a metro doom monger. :rolleyes: First of all I don't hop on every single potential issue. I don't post here very much although I read it more frequently. When I do post I agree the content of the posts express doubt about it being built. However I am not some randomer with a passing interest attempting to disrupt the thread. I'm not far off 50 years of age. For 40 plus years of my life on this planet, I've been listening to talk about DART expansion/Underground. For 20 of those years I've been listening to talk about a metro line in Dublin. For a period of 4 years in the early to late 00s, I campaigned for the development of rail based transport in Dublin. To keep on topic, I met many Government TDs and opposition TDs in relation to metro. I also met with state agencies and consultants in relation to same.

It was via these meetings and others that I developed the belief that they don't actually understand or care. They know it's not an election issue as a FG spokesperson on Transport once admitted to me in a private meeting in Leinster House that they won't lose their seat over any aspect of metro.The state agencies like the former RPA were the same. Follow the Government spin and simply keep the job. I dealt with three transport Ministers during that 4 year period. Two of them were absolute spoofers and that was when the country was awash with money. To the very end one of them insisted a certain project would go ahead. It never would. The thinking among senior civil servants is simple. Play to the audience that don't really care and build the cheapest projects to pacify and look interested. I predicted on these forums that MN would be reinvented by a new Government and it was. That was in 2010.

I have absolutely no wish to disrupt the thread, but I do have an awful lot of credibility and dislike my "negative" posts being branded like I'm some sort of whinger. I want to see a metro in Dublin. I've wanted to see an underground railway in Dublin since first seeing the original DART plans. I'm sick to death of looking at traffic issue pieces in Dublin on TV right back to the late 70s. Politicians have failed us and from experience, I see nothing different from the current crop no matter how much money we have. As for Journalists, there are no journalists left that have an informed interest and nobody feeding them any factual info. Therefore the crap they write is infuriating.

We get that you don't think that the project will happen, do you really have to keep telling us? The thread is for discussing what is happening with the project, not why it won't happen.

Grandeeod

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

We get that you don't think that the project will happen, do you really have to keep telling us? The thread is for discussing what is happening with the project, not why it won't happen.

I don't keep telling you. I post my opinion every few months and always relate it to current political/economic/social developments etc. It's hardly some kind of agenda that is constantly trying to drive home a point on a weekly or even monthly basis. As each development in relation to the latest version of the project happens, I simply remind the thread that we have been at that point before. You cannot discuss the project without mentioning the potential for it not to happen. Way back in the thread I explained why Charlemont to Sandyford was a non runner because no proper plan/design for a metro upgrade was done 20 years ago. apart from the distance between the running lines. I clearly remember RPA staff laughing their heads off at the fact that it was a political fudge because there had never ever been any studies into how the Green line could be upgraded to metro. A political decision. Look at the thread title now.

I don't criticise people discussing what is happening with the project. It's a worthwhile endeavor. But I do think that criticising my view on the ultimate delivery of the project is unfair. For a positive contribution to the thread, the interchange with heavy rail at Cross Guns was my idea.:D

murphaph

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

We get that you don't think that the project will happen, do you really have to keep telling us? The thread is for discussing what is happening with the project, not why it won't happen.

A bit of realpolitik doesn't hurt. Nothing will get built until it's an election issue. Where I live, public transport is always high on the election agenda. In Ireland it never is, hence not much gets done. Grandeeod is correct to remind people of that.

I also post seldom these days. There just isn't much to get excited about in report z on this or that.

I hope I'm wrong and stuff will get built but history has a habit of repeating itself.

Paul2019

Grandeeod, unfortunately every word of your comment is painfully true and I say that as someone who's 10 years older than you.
I even remember the 1975 Rapid Transit plan for Dublin. Phase 1 of that, the electrification of the DART line, has happened but countless plans, studies, railway orders, hype, promises, false dawns and all the rest of it and look where we are. I remember the late Seamus Brennan telling us the airport metro would open in 2007. I remember that €180 million was spent on Metro North before that project was denounced as "gold plated" and then axed.
Not a single underground rail tunnel has been built.
Try raising underground rail as an issue with a canvassing TD at election if you want to be patronised and treated like the idiot that you are.

This country has a long standing, deeply rooted problem when it comes to infrastructure provision. Sorry to say, I have no idea how this can be changed.

cgcsb

I think things are changing slowly though. The population is urbanising and transport has become a political topic. It was enough to get the motorway network built. Unlike the motorway network Public transport doesn't appeal to Anglo-American individualism (the dominant ideological point of view in Ireland and the UK for the mid 20th century) so it's not a feature in the mindset of people born before 1990. Ireland's cultural attitudes are becoming more closely attached to the mainland of Europe than the traditional anglosphere (which has mostly reverted to a child-like state), so such changes might be on the cards. Make no mistake the problem is cultural, not financial. They can build metro systems in countries that don't have a pot to piss in, and Ireland sits in the top dozen wealthiest/happiest/most developed places on Earth by every single measure.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

I think things are changing slowly though. The population is urbanising and transport has become a political topic. It was enough to get the motorway network built. Unlike the motorway network Public transport doesn't appeal to Anglo-American individualism (the dominant ideological point of view in Ireland and the UK for the mid 20th century) so it's not a feature in the mindset of people born before 1990. Ireland's cultural attitudes are becoming more closely attached to the mainland of Europe than the traditional anglosphere (which has mostly reverted to a child-like state), so such changes might be on the cards. Make no mistake the problem is cultural, not financial. They can build metro systems in countries that don't have a pot to piss in, and Ireland sits in the top dozen wealthiest/happiest/most developed places on Earth by every single measure.

You're right - we do have a cultural problem when it comes to attitudes towards public transport and investment in it. And a large one at that.

It is still far from being a critical issue for the population at large when it comes to elections unfortunately (they'll moan about congestion but that's as far as it goes).

Even worse is the attitude of the mandarins in the Department of Finance in particular towards rail investment which isn't far from that put forward by the likes of Colm McCarthy and Sean Barrett.

It is important to keep that, and the historical context that Grandeeod has provided, in mind when it comes to discussing whether we will actually finally get physical work on these projects started.

Frustrating doesn't even begin to describe it!

MJohnston

Transport may not directly be a political issue, but Covid-19 (and more generally air-pollution related health) and environmentalism very much are. You simply cannot solve air pollution or improve the environment without public transport solutions like Metrolink. Throw in the housing crisis, of which rapid public transport is one key part of a solution.

I think it's getting harder and harder for politicians to ignore these connections.

Pete_Cavan

murphaph wrote: »

A bit of realpolitik doesn't hurt. Nothing will get built until it's an election issue. Where I live, public transport is always high on the election agenda. In Ireland it never is, hence not much gets done. Grandeeod is correct to remind people of that.

I also post seldom these days. There just isn't much to get excited about in report z on this or that.

I hope I'm wrong and stuff will get built but history has a habit of repeating itself.

Personally, I think the constant "Its never going to happen anyway" attitude ensures that public transport is never high on the election agenda, lowers expectations and ultimately gives politicians an easy out if projects are not delivered. We are doomed to have history repeat itself if people are conditioned to expect it, particularly when supposed supporters of projects are reinforcing that conditioning. Metrolink is advancing, the new Government has committed to it, I don't see what "it hasn't happened yet so it will never happen" adds to this thread.

ncounties

Is there any website that contains the original 1970s plan, that someone could share the link for?

MJohnston

ncounties wrote: »

Is there any website that contains the original 1970s plan, that someone could share the link for?

There was no Metro line in any plan before 2001.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

There was no Metro line in any plan before 2001.

They are clearly referring to the original Dublin rapid rail plan in 1975 which unfortunately was well before the internet, which included several underground sections across the city centre.

I’ve dug up from my archives the diagram of the original proposal.