Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

Sam Russell

L1011 wrote: »

Cost would have inflated by requiring custom trams; and any link with mainline would prevent automation even to lower grades of autonomy; as the mainline won't be automated at any time in the forseeable future.

Also, having one connection to the mainline network, facing the wrong way to be of any use, would be of no value anyway.

You are probably right, but we are stuck with the 1.6 m gauge for the Irish network as it would be impossible to change it. (A bit like the QWERTY keyboard and the phone dial vs the calculator keyboard). It would involve a shutdown of the network for a very long period.

However, if they were to change Metro to 1.6 m now is the time to do it. They could run 'Dart' metros from Drogheda as far as the airport for example.

Anyway, it is not on their radar to do any such thing.

Stephen Strange

Sam Russell wrote: »

You are probably right, but we are stuck with the 1.6 m gauge for the Irish network as it would be impossible to change it. (A bit like the QWERTY keyboard and the phone dial vs the calculator keyboard). It would involve a shutdown of the network for a very long period.

However, if they were to change Metro to 1.6 m now is the time to do it. They could run 'Dart' metros from Drogheda as far as the airport for example.

Anyway, it is not on their radar to do any such thing.

Not being funny, but it wouldn't exactly be hard for someone to change trains to get from Drogheda to the airport. I would like to see Metrolink extended to Northern Line

Qrt

Stephen Strange wrote: »

Not being funny, but it wouldn't exactly be hard for someone to change trains to get from Drogheda to the airport. I would like to see Metrolink extended to Northern Line

Yeah, it’d be a two minute interchange max really. Funny how the concept of interchange was lauded by BusConnects proponents for efficiency, yet people want trams and DARTs and metros going each and every way.

(For the record; I’m a massive BusConnects fan, but asking people to change buses to get into town without first building the CBCs was a terrible idea)

Pete_Cavan

Yes, I said it ages ago we should build a proper interchange station at Rush & Lusk which would be Metrolink terminus and could also allow for turnback platform for DARTs, rather than messing around at Malahide.

Sam Russell

Qrt wrote: »

Yeah, it’d be a two minute interchange max really. Funny how the concept of interchange was lauded by BusConnects proponents for efficiency, yet people want trams and DARTs and metros going each and every way.

(For the record; I’m a massive BusConnects fan, but asking people to change buses to get into town without first building the CBCs was a terrible idea)

The problem with interconnections is not getting into town, but getting out again. If the connection is just missed going in, there will be one along in a minute. Going out, there will be one along in 30 minutes.

But I take your point.

salmocab

Sam Russell wrote: »

The problem with interconnections is not getting into town, but getting out again. If the connection is just missed going in, there will be one along in a minute. Going out, there will be one along in 30 minutes.

But I take your point.

Yeah that’s a big deal, missing your bus in town means you can pop in for a pint/coffee or to the shop but missing it in the suburbs can mean 40 minutes standing at the side of the road. My local bus is at best hourly so missing that would be a nightmare

D.L.R.

L1011 wrote: »

That's all the tie-in

Which FF said was easy. Would have been much easier to build a portal in 1998.

gjim

Sam Russell wrote: »

You are probably right, but we are stuck with the 1.6 m gauge for the Irish network as it would be impossible to change it. (A bit like the QWERTY keyboard and the phone dial vs the calculator keyboard). It would involve a shutdown of the network for a very long period.

However, if they were to change Metro to 1.6 m now is the time to do it. They could run 'Dart' metros from Drogheda as far as the airport for example.

I was under the impression that the operation of metro is so radically different to heavy rail/DART that there's pretty much no way for them to share tracks? I have never knowingly used a rail system where metros (i.e. light rail) leave dedicated metro lines and join tracks also used for heavy rail, IC trains, etc. At least, in my experience in lots of European cities and in a handful of cities around the rest of the world, has been that metro lines and heavy rail lines are completely segregated even if they share the same gauge.

I mean the signalling system will have to be completely different for example? As well as stuff like platform heights. The gauge is only one of a bunch of differences which make light rail/metro incompatible with traditional heavy rail systems afaik. To do what you suggest, really means building ML to DART standard, no?

cgcsb

No way to make metro compatible with IR this has been gone over so many times:

different gauge, metro is driverless, completely different species of vehichle, no pressing need for them to share tracks.

Sam Russell

cgcsb wrote: »

No way to make metro compatible with IR this has been gone over so many times:

different gauge, metro is driverless, completely different species of vehichle, no pressing need for them to share tracks.

Not only all the difference you mention, but different unions.

By the way, the Bakerloo line from Queens Park to Harrow and Wealdstone runs on the Overground tracks with quite different platform heights.

Stephen Strange

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Yes, I said it ages ago we should build a proper interchange station at Rush & Lusk which would be Metrolink terminus and could also allow for turnback platform for DARTs, rather than messing around at Malahide.

I agree. Both because Rush & Lusk would be easier as they're outside the towns, and because it's my local station and I work in the airport :pac:

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

By the way, the Bakerloo line from Queens Park to Harrow and Wealdstone runs on the Overground tracks with quite different platform heights.

Purely down to grandfather rights.

No new rail investment would be allowed with a similar setup.

Metrolink and heavy rail are not compatible and won’t be operating on the same tracks full stop.

L1011

Sam Russell wrote: »

You are probably right, but we are stuck with the 1.6 m gauge for the Irish network as it would be impossible to change it. (A bit like the QWERTY keyboard and the phone dial vs the calculator keyboard). It would involve a shutdown of the network for a very long period.

However, if they were to change Metro to 1.6 m now is the time to do it. They could run 'Dart' metros from Drogheda as far as the airport for example.

Anyway, it is not on their radar to do any such thing.

There is, was, and never will be a suitable time to change Metro to 1600mm.

GerardKeating

LXFlyer wrote: »

Metrolink and heavy rail are not compatible and won’t be operating on the same tracks full stop.

Could Metro-North not be Quad tracked, perhaps two Metro tunnels and two Heavy rail tunnels, running from the Northern Line, past the airport into town.

LXFlyer

GerardKeating wrote: »

Could Metro-North not be Quad tracked, perhaps two Metro tunnels and two Heavy rail tunnels, running from the Northern Line, past the airport into town.

Let's try and be realistic here.

The cost of that would be astronomical.

Quad-tracking some of the northern line would make far more sense.

dubhthach

LXFlyer wrote: »

Let's try and be realistic here.

The cost of that would be astronomical.

Quad-tracking some of the northern line would make far more sense.

Indeed it would be considerably cheaper doing relevant CPO's to widen to quad track at least as far as Clongriffin.

Heck they could probably widen parts to three tracks (passing loops?) without having to do any CPO's

Sierra Oscar

Unsurprisingly, it looks like Eamon Ryan will be the next Transport Minister.

https://twitter.com/IrishTimes/status/1276489310724861952

It's hard to see how he will not announce some sort of pause / review of the current Metrolink project considering his opposition to the current preferred route.

He has invested a lot of energy in opposing the project in his own constituency. Hard to see how he can back away from his previous position if he does become Transport Minister. Of course the review will be a fudge and the current preferred route will likely remain the same, but it could delay progress by a few more years.

Eamon Ryan - Dublin Metrolink Plans

AlmightyCushion

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Unsurprisingly, it looks like Eamon Ryan will be the next Transport Minister.

https://twitter.com/IrishTimes/status/1276489310724861952

It's hard to see how he will not announce some sort of pause / review of the current Metrolink project considering his opposition to the current preferred route.

He has invested a lot of energy in opposing the project in his own constituency. Hard to see how he can back away from his previous position if he does become Transport Minister. Of course the review will be a fudge and the current preferred route will likely remain the same, but it could delay progress by a few more years.

Eamon Ryan - Dublin Metrolink Plans

From Eamon Ryan's website:

I recently had the opportunity to ask the Taoiseach for his views on alternative routes for the MetroLink project and urged him not to delay the Northside section or cancel the Southside section. You can see that below.

I hope that means if he does seek some sort of review that it is done in a way that doesn't delay the project or slow it down.

MJohnston

He's never had any opposition to the northern section of Metrolink, so I don't know why he would interfere with that. If he wants alternative southside routings, and wants to maximise tunnelling cost/benefit, there's still time to get that done as an additional project beyond the first part of Metrolink.

Pete_Cavan

Can we at least wait until he makes comment on the currently proposed scheme in his capacity as Minister before jumping to conclusions and writing it off?

It is in the PfG and his party would crucify him if he delayed a gamechanger in terms of public transport provision in Dublin. There is also no chance of his party achieving their much publicised 2:1 capital spending ratio without it.

D.L.R.

Terenure metro isn't realistic. If we're talking viable alternatives, you could take Metro west from SSG toward Heuston along the DU alignment. Even if it terminated at Heuston it would be a viable route, and there's the option of running it down to Kildare if you sort out gauge issues.

Dart or Metro, who really cares as long as the capacity is there. The Northern line section of DU is half baked anyway, imo.

Pete_Cavan

D.L.R. wrote: »

Terenure metro isn't realistic. If we're talking viable alternatives, you could take Metro west from SSG toward Heuston along the DU alignment. Even if it terminated at Heuston it would be a viable route, and there's the option of running it down to Kildare if you sort out gauge issues.

Dart or Metro, who really cares as long as the capacity is there.

The point of DU is to allow thru-running of heavy rail services, increasing capacity and delivering passengers directly into the city centre. Sending Metro to Heuston achieves little.

D.L.R.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The point of DU is to allow thru-running of heavy rail services, increasing capacity and delivering passengers directly into the city centre. Sending Metro to Heuston achieves little.

DU is for Darts, not mainline services. Not much difference between Dart and Metro in terms of capacity.

LXFlyer

D.L.R. wrote: »

Terenure metro isn't realistic. If we're talking viable alternatives, you could take Metro west from SSG toward Heuston along the DU alignment. Even if it terminated at Heuston it would be a viable route, and there's the option of running it down to Kildare if you sort out gauge issues.

Dart or Metro, who really cares as long as the capacity is there. The Northern line section of DU is half baked anyway, imo.

Something will have to be done to deal with the south/southwestern approaches to the city. It isn’t just Terenure. It’s the entire area south and southwest of there that is in gridlock as it is. BusConnects can only do so much.

Otherwise it will be in perpetual gridlock.

Ultimately there will have to be a Metro of some form or another as there is little or no room available to expand roadspace.

Sending Metro west to Heuston is frankly crazy. That’s what’s DART Underground is meant to do and it needs to be delivered. Driverless Metro and heavy rail are not compatible so let’s just stop that idea right now.

The Northern line can deliver the necessary capacity increases with additional tracks between Killester and Raheny and additional loops north of Howth Junction.

Pete_Cavan

D.L.R. wrote: »

DU is for Darts, not mainline services. Not much difference between Dart and Metro in terms of capacity.

Yes to allow northern line DARTs avoid Connolly and creating a new DART service on the Kildare line which go beyond Heuston, none of which is achieved by sending Metro to Heuston.

D.L.R.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Yes to allow northern line DARTs avoid Connolly and creating a new DART service on the Kildare line which go beyond Heuston, none of which is achieved by sending Metro to Heuston.

Metro could be extended to Kildare instead of Dart.

LXFlyer wrote:

Sending Metro west to Heuston is frankly crazy. That’s what’s DART Underground is meant to do and it needs to be delivered. Driverless Metro and heavy rail are not compatible so let’s just stop that idea right now.

Its not such a crazy idea when you think about it, perhaps explain why you think that's the case instead of trying to shut down any debate.

Not upgrading the Green line for the cheapest section of Metro in western europe. Now that's crazy.

Pete_Cavan

D.L.R. wrote: »

Metro could be extended to Kildare instead Dart

No it couldn't, you will still have Irish gauge heavy rail trains using the line so Metro isn't compatible.

LXFlyer

D.L.R. wrote: »

Metro could be extended to Kildare instead of Dart.

There is already heavy rail quad tracking in place west of Inchicore to Hazelhatch.

Are you suggesting ripping all of that up and replacing it with Metro?

That is not going to happen.

Driverless Metro and Irish Rail heavy rail services are not compatible with one another. They cannot use the same tracks.

As for replacing DU with Metro, the DART Underground plans are recognised as the optimum solution for our heavy rail commuter services.

Abandoning that is frankly daft.

D.L.R.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

No it couldn't, you will still have Irish gauge heavy rail trains using the line so Metro isn't compatible.

LXFlyer wrote: »

There is already heavy rail quad tracking in place west of Inchicore to Hazelhatch.

Are you suggesting ripping all of that up and replacing it with Metro?

That is not going to happen.

Driverless Metro and Irish Rail heavy rail services are not compatible with one another. They cannot use the same tracks.

As for replacing DU with Metro, the DART Underground plans are recognised as the optimum solution for our heavy rail commuter services.

Abandoning that is frankly daft.

The quad tracks could be used for Metro by either converting 2 running lines to standard, or building Metro to Irish. The two modes can be entirely segregated, these are all just (albeit significant) technical problems.

DU ignores the capacity problems with the Northern Line. Its the biggest down side/drawback to that project. And frankly its not happening in the next 30 years. At least this (admittedly leftfield) solution could be up and running within our lifetimes.

Pete_Cavan

D.L.R. wrote: »

The quad tracks could be used for Metro by either converting 2 running lines to standard, or building Metro to Irish. The two modes can be entirely segregated, these are all just (albeit significant) technical problems.

The benefit of quad-track is it allows greater flexibility and redundancy if there is a problem, having two different gauges would be madness, particularly when half the track is already there and would have to be taken up and replaced with different gauge track. Metrolink is going to be driverless so won't ever run on existing heavy rail network so should use standard gauge.

DU ignores the capacity problems with the Northern Line. Its the biggest down side/drawback to that project. And frankly its not happening in the next 30 years. At least this (admittedly leftfield) solution could be up and running within our lifetimes.

And how does sending Metro to Heuston address capacity problems with the Northern Line? The DU plan allows Northern Line DARTs avoid congestion at Connolly and over the Loop Line Bridge, your suggestion doesn't even do that.