Heavyweight Boxing

Yeah he went on far too long. He was my GOAT at the turn of the century but I thought after he fought Tarver the first time that he should have walked away as he had cemented his legacy. He had the gig with HBO at that time already and I felt he would go down as the greatest if he retired right then.

Knew I’d reel you in, angry man!

btw, Tyson isn’t the GOAT either.

It was Roy who claimed that Roy was the GOAT. No double standards at all.

anyone, Tyson included who wants to claim that Tyson is the GOAT, will be judged/assessed no differently.

I don't remember anybody ignoring the whole career as regards any fighters legacy.

I spoke about pre-prison Mike Tyson as one of the greatest, as in his prime years were pre-prison but as far as his legacy goes he fought on way past his prime and gets knocked for that. Very same as Roy Jones Jr. Roy had a much longer prime but he fought on for too many years after that. I spoke of Roy Jones Jr. as the GOAT in his prime years.

The move up to his one fight at heavyweight was the slow beginning of the end of Roy Jones, the effect of putting on muscle then losing it to come back down to light heavy meant he lost that split second zip, reflex, timing or whatever you like to call it was gone.

He was 34 doing this and then he lost twice to Tarver at light heavy and never claimed a world title again. Before the Ruiz fight he only had one loss on his record and that was a disqualification against Montell Griffin.

Yes, this angle has been looked at alright.

I personally think that Roy simply did not have a great chin, and in prime he didn't need to rely on it so much due to his speed and reflexes

He rarely got tagged hard/clean pre Tarver KO.

Take an Ali...when his reflexes slowed and he had to take flusher shots, his solid chin came to his rescue. Roy did not have a solid chin.

Don't believe he ever spoke of it

Plus, it's not like he was an old/stale/beaten up 35 year old. The chap was still very fresh, athletic and talented. He had recently won a HW belt as well. He was a top class fighter aged 35. Plus, he beat Tarver after that HW belt win.

In the Tarver 2 fight he just got caught with a flush shot and his chin/body did not take it. Not much more to it.

He then was clean knocked out again not too long after from another clean shot.

It's why I don't consider him greater than some others...

The likes a my man, James Toney. Had both the chin and toughness and ring crafts/smarts to always stay on his feet..went up all the way to HW and fought and beat men far bigger, never getting stopped or even dropped: Fought Holyfield in 2003 who landed some very clean shots, and Jirov before that fight hit Toney with heaps of heavy shots. Fought a prime Lebedev (who knocked Roy clean out) aged 42/43 and still standing after 12 rds...

Roy more had speed/reflexes, and when these depleted, he was clearly vulnerable

Roy didn't have those elite survival skills of chin/defense when he lost some speed/reflexes

The reason I only post once in a blue moon anymore, is because this forum has degenerated massively from what it once was.

And you are the main reason.

Like a number of other good posters who used to post regularly on here, I got sick of you hijacking threads with your neverending, interfering, conatrarian bullsh*t. Newer posters fall for it and try arguing their case, but eventually learn the hard way. Well, I learned a long time ago.

In the Simpsons there once was a 'No Homer club', I wish the boxing forum had a 'No Walshb thread'.

Good man. Let it out!

In my opinion its so hard to look past Sugar Ray Robinson, he was 40 and 0 by the time he was 21, he lost to Jake LaMotta then fought 87! more times before he lost again 😮

By the time he lost again to Randolph Turpin he was 30 and his record up to then was 129 wins 1 loss and 2 draws.

Make sure the top of your list is his fight with Dave Tiberi.

Don't worry if you never heard of Tiberi. Neither did anybody else before they fought.

He wasn't even ordinary, but he beat the sh*t out of a prime James Toney for 12 rounds, so much so Toney couldn't stand up for the decision.

Seriously. Watch the decision.

Immediately after one of the worst decisions in boxing history, Toney states he'd never box at middleweight again. Except he did. Twice. So much for the weight-making bullsh*t Toney fanboys spout to excuse every one of his losses.

And just to get this in before the neverending excuses come - Toney himself has openly admitted since then, that he "got a gift that night".

He's more honest than his fans.

Contentious decisions happen all the time in boxing. Big deal. Toney/Tiberi was contentious. So what. Toney is still an ATG fighter.

Norton/Ali 3 hugely contentious. Doesn’t at all take away from the greatness of Ali.

The KD was a nothing. Jones won. A step ahead. Boring fight.

Yes. Won well on the cards. As I said, Jones was a step ahead. It’s not like he beat Toney up.

Completely different styles and fighters.

For me, Toney was the greater pugilist. I am basing it off his 20+ years career

Best I have seen..

Well, whatever about GOAT status..

as regards talent/skills/toughness status, Toney is right up near the top.

anyway, it’s all personal opinions really.

huge factor in any GOAT debate is name recognition. Here, Toney suffers..

A MW McClellan also very dangerous for Jones!

both him and Hearns could get to Roy clean. Big, rangy, tall and heavy hitters. G man also had a very solid chin..

John Fury has advised Whyte to be praising and lovey dovey to Tyson, and this is his best chance at getting a title shot. Act the hard man and aggressive stance, and Fury might tell you where to go!!!

but there still was logic in those predictions. So, I wouldn't read into them too much.

Wilder and Fury could fight another 10 times, and it wouldn't be odd, off or silly to think that Wilder gets a win(s).

It's wee little things here and there that can change fights, and more so when you have a hitter like Wilder..

I re-watched the fight again, and a very slight thing that Fury did when he was caught clean by Wilder in round 4 likely saved him being even more hurt, and possibly knocked out. Watch when the Wilder shot lands....Fury moves onto it, but slightly tucks the chin/head into neck/chest, and he allowed himself to absorb the punch better than had it caught him flush to face/jaw.

These split second moments can make wins and losses...

Also, AJ-Fury yet to happen.....Not at all odd to think AJ can win....Yes, Fury will start favorite, but hardly a huge upset should AJ beat him; same for Usyk. I think Fury beats Usyk, but Usyk could make it very competitive.

For somebody supposedly so skilful Toney was regularly outboxed.

Nunn couldn't be caught on the cards before the 11th round finish.

Against the slick Reggie Johnson, Mr. Indestructable was put on his arse in round two form a single left hand. By no stretch of anybody's imagination was Reggie Johnson a big puncher. A lot of people (me included) thought Reggie won that fight.

Both Mike McCallum fights were close tough fights, where there was a strongman v a slickster. Toney was NOT the slickster. His head was knocked back repeatedly by 35/36 year old McCallum's jabs and he was made look very, very amateurish by McCallum's pivoting. He did however, land the heavier punches, so it's a case of what you like. However, don't waste your time watching the commentary that includes Sean O'Grady's non-stop fawning over Toney; even as Toney was swiping at thin air, he was praising his 'skills'. O'Grady sounded like he had marked his scorecard before it even began.

Roy Jones fight. 12-0. Different class!

Montell Griffin beat him twice. Griffin was a very skilful operator, yet Toney is the one that gets praised for his 'skills'.

Drake Thadzi wasn't quite the nobody that Dave Tiberi was, but he wasn't a whole lot better. He lost to any decent fighter he fought, but he beat Toney.

Unlike others, I don't go on about fighter's losses when they are miles past their best, but I couldn't let go the fact that Samuel Peter actually outboxed Toney in their second fight. Peter was a strong, hard-hitting and tough heavy, but Toney was probably the only boxer he ever outboxed.

Toney fans never shut up about his win over face-first sluggers Iran Barkley and Vassilly Jirov. I don't like being disrespectful to boxers but everybody those two fought was more skilful than them! They relied on toughness, workrate and good power. Three years before, Nigel Benn destroyed Barkley in one round. Four years before, an ancient, fat Roberto Duran beat Barkely. If you were to get a computer to create two boxers to suit James Toney's style perfectly and make him look way better than he was, it would have created Barkley and Jirov.

Back in the 1980s certain people used the term 'media creation' to disparage the great Sugar Ray Leonard. Well, I use the term 'internet creation' to describe James Toney's skilset. Since the advent of the internet there has been a small cohort of dedicated, deluded, disciples of James Toney who go on and on and on and on about his talent and skills. His performances and results don't back it up.

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Fight fans need to watch Toney-Nunn closer. Nunn was an exceptional boxer: Tall, fast, rangy and a lovely mover. Top 3 P4P in 1991.

The cards don't tell the story, and nor does compubox. Toney was not being clearly out-boxed. Hell of a lot of Nunn shots being counted were blocked and parried and slipped. Toney was the one landing the harder and cleaner shots all night, breaking Nunn down mid to late rounds. Score cards were not as wide as what was happening. It was a far closer fight.

That win from Toney was far from a lucky punch. Nunn was being broken down, and it was Toney getting on top the last few rounds. It was an excellent display from Toney. In the pocket all night slipping, parrying and countering solidly the whole night. Pure innate skills.

Great fight and show from both men. One best MW fights the last 30 years.

Yep...agreed....

Two very different styles. Jones for me was more an athlete come boxer and Toney a born fighter.

Both exceptional boxers/fighters/talents

I have 0 issue with anyone saying RJJ is greater, or the GOAT. It's just a bit silly when some take it a bit oo serious when any analysis and assessment may appear to be negative.

What I love about Toney was his fearlessness, calmness, coolness and balls in the ring. I don't think I have ever seen a more calm and composed boxer/fighter. Nothing phased him.

And his actual skills were beautiful to watch. Cleanness, preciseness, smoothness. As well as one of the greatest inside fighters ever.