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Heavyweight Boxing

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  • Registered Users Posts: 47,983 ✭✭✭✭ walshb


    Yes...

    I have always felt that probabably most the damage is done in the gym, where boxers are more relaxed and tend to take head shots much more....and they take way more than they do in a fight....so, for one top class pro fight they could spar 80-120 rds or thereabouts

    We only see the end result on fight night. We don't see the weeks and weeks of sparring before the fights

    Post edited by walshb on


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭ yourdeadwright


    Ye all above is correct ,

    Rumours for a while AJ been dropped a few times in recent years sparring & in the recent odd interview he did say people don't see the punishment iv taken in the gym ,



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭ squinn2912


    Yea that is a relevant point. In the gym there would be numerous off days where even a very ordinary lad would get a lucky punch or time a worldie and at HW that would mean serious trauma even with the big gloves. I suppose I might have dismissed your point a bit at first glance re RJJ like the shots hed have taken over the years in training would have of course contributed to his decline or chin softening. He really was awesome though, probably my favourite that I’ve seen in real time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,474 ✭✭✭✭ eagle eye


    Yeah he went on far too long. He was my GOAT at the turn of the century but I thought after he fought Tarver the first time that he should have walked away as he had cemented his legacy. He had the gig with HBO at that time already and I felt he would go down as the greatest if he retired right then.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,129 ✭✭✭ megadodge


    Remarkable how being KO'd after 35 years of age and 15 years as a pro is somehow used as a barometer to judge one (and only one) great fighter's prime, but every excuse under the sun is used to explain Mike Tyson being past his prime when getting KTFO'd at TWENTY THREE years of age.

    Let's all play pretend.

    Double standards at it's very worst!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 47,983 ✭✭✭✭ walshb


    Knew I’d reel you in, angry man!

    btw, Tyson isn’t the GOAT either.

    It was Roy who claimed that Roy was the GOAT. No double standards at all.

    anyone, Tyson included who wants to claim that Tyson is the GOAT, will be judged/assessed no differently.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,517 ✭✭✭ iebamm2580


    We can only go on what ex fighters say, what you are saying can not be proved, you are speculating about what they actually might think. I take them at face value. I just think if usyk beats joshua again, fury needs usyk, thats his legacy secured.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,474 ✭✭✭✭ eagle eye


    I don't remember anybody ignoring the whole career as regards any fighters legacy.

    I spoke about pre-prison Mike Tyson as one of the greatest, as in his prime years were pre-prison but as far as his legacy goes he fought on way past his prime and gets knocked for that. Very same as Roy Jones Jr. Roy had a much longer prime but he fought on for too many years after that. I spoke of Roy Jones Jr. as the GOAT in his prime years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭ AdrianG08


    In fairness Fury has taken dangerous fights (relative to his standing at the given time).

    I remember the first Chisora fight in 2011, thinking what was he doing here. At the time he'd had 13 or 14 fights. This was the Chisora who had yet to fight Vitali and Haye. Say what we want about Chisora but that's a risky fight.

    The Wilder I fight was the ultimate risk. Like some others on here I don't harp on about him being 28/30 stone like it's some kind of virtue. But it is what it is, a risky fight.

    You can throw a lot of stuff at Fury but he has taken risks and has consistently got the result on the big night.

    As for being unrealistic and demanding 50/50 with AJ? Feck that, I would aswell. The man in me would look for that, in his eyes he was still lineal champ, the man who beat the man. He didn't have a promoter to protect him from sanctioning bodies demanding mandatories be fulfilled (IBF belt was basically stripped right away) .

    No surprise Hearn couldn't agree with Wilder or Fury, considering the fella probably wanted lions share for his paper champ, rematch clauses and even the lions share in the rematch. That's how they operate. So it was great that Fury and Wilder made their own trilogy and in the mean time the "champ" Got found out all by himself against Ruiz and Usyk.

    I think this vindicated Fury if it is a case he wouldn't accept being the b-side.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,351 ✭✭✭ Littlehorny


    The move up to his one fight at heavyweight was the slow beginning of the end of Roy Jones, the effect of putting on muscle then losing it to come back down to light heavy meant he lost that split second zip, reflex, timing or whatever you like to call it was gone.

    He was 34 doing this and then he lost twice to Tarver at light heavy and never claimed a world title again. Before the Ruiz fight he only had one loss on his record and that was a disqualification against Montell Griffin.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 47,983 ✭✭✭✭ walshb


    He's not getting at you. He posts here once in a blue moon, and all to get a swipe at me for whatever beef he has...never direct quotes me, but subtly has a go in his posts/replies.

    Either that, or thanks any posters that disagree and debate me...

    Just on Roy and his prime and Mike and his prime...both excellent fighters at prime....

    Neither are GOAT for me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 47,983 ✭✭✭✭ walshb


    Yes, this angle has been looked at alright.

    I personally think that Roy simply did not have a great chin, and in prime he didn't need to rely on it so much due to his speed and reflexes

    He rarely got tagged hard/clean pre Tarver KO.

    Take an Ali...when his reflexes slowed and he had to take flusher shots, his solid chin came to his rescue. Roy did not have a solid chin.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭ yourdeadwright


    Its very hard to tell you could be right & Roy done a great job of keeping that chin hidden but some fighters age worse than others & there chin's go ,

    Has Roy ever spoke about it



  • Registered Users Posts: 47,983 ✭✭✭✭ walshb


    Don't believe he ever spoke of it

    Plus, it's not like he was an old/stale/beaten up 35 year old. The chap was still very fresh, athletic and talented. He had recently won a HW belt as well. He was a top class fighter aged 35. Plus, he beat Tarver after that HW belt win.

    In the Tarver 2 fight he just got caught with a flush shot and his chin/body did not take it. Not much more to it.

    He then was clean knocked out again not too long after from another clean shot.

    It's why I don't consider him greater than some others...

    The likes a my man, James Toney. Had both the chin and toughness and ring crafts/smarts to always stay on his feet..went up all the way to HW and fought and beat men far bigger, never getting stopped or even dropped: Fought Holyfield in 2003 who landed some very clean shots, and Jirov before that fight hit Toney with heaps of heavy shots. Fought a prime Lebedev (who knocked Roy clean out) aged 42/43 and still standing after 12 rds...

    Roy more had speed/reflexes, and when these depleted, he was clearly vulnerable

    Roy didn't have those elite survival skills of chin/defense when he lost some speed/reflexes



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,474 ✭✭✭✭ eagle eye


    Yes I agree, but if Mike never fought again after prison and Jones retired after Tarver 1 or even Tarver 2 then they would be high up in the GOAT conversation for me. In fact Roy would be the GOAT in that circumstance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,129 ✭✭✭ megadodge


    The reason I only post once in a blue moon anymore, is because this forum has degenerated massively from what it once was.

    And you are the main reason.

    Like a number of other good posters who used to post regularly on here, I got sick of you hijacking threads with your neverending, interfering, conatrarian bullsh*t. Newer posters fall for it and try arguing their case, but eventually learn the hard way. Well, I learned a long time ago.

    In the Simpsons there once was a 'No Homer club', I wish the boxing forum had a 'No Walshb thread'.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,129 ✭✭✭ megadodge



    I wasn't picking you out. And in fairness to you, you obviously appreciate Roy Jones' greatness.

    My gripe is how what Roy Jones did at 35+ is used to demean what he did in his actual prime years. Nobody gives Sugar Ray Robinson any grief for his 19 losses. Why? Because most of them occurred when he was well past his best. Same with Ali, Duran, Sugar Ray Leonard, etc. Sadly, boxing is littered with similar examples of greats who just couldn't stay away. And in the main, reasonable people don't hold that against them. They remember them at their best. So why is it different for Roy Jones?

    The whole 'he had a bad chin all along' type thinking is so unrealistic it's hard to fathom. Hiding a bad chin for 15 years is simply not possible!

    People really need to think about that last sentence.

    For the record I believe Roy Jones was the greatest boxer to ever lace gloves.



  • Registered Users Posts: 47,983 ✭✭✭✭ walshb




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭ squinn2912


    Safe to say hello yet? Jaysus lads it’s only a bit of discussion. I think you’re two good posters.

    WB if RJJ isn’t the GOAT for you who would be? Pound for pound in prime (which isn’t the only measurement of course) he’s right up there or thereabouts.

    I get your criticism of him being so beatable right after his prime. Some very ordinary lads KO’d him. A big argument for Ali over him has to be that ability to take shots and find a way of winning or winning fights where he was the underdog, beginning with Liston and right up to Foreman



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,351 ✭✭✭ Littlehorny


    In my opinion its so hard to look past Sugar Ray Robinson, he was 40 and 0 by the time he was 21, he lost to Jake LaMotta then fought 87! more times before he lost again 😮

    By the time he lost again to Randolph Turpin he was 30 and his record up to then was 129 wins 1 loss and 2 draws.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 47,983 ✭✭✭✭ walshb


    squinn2912,

    Personally the greatest fighting talent I have ever seen in action is James Toney

    He had everything. Chin, stamina, IQ, toughness, ring smarts, infighting, mid fighting, and all the intangibles. Skills you cannot teach..

    and utterly fearless. Didn’t give a fook. No airs or graces. Just a badass

    The most unstoppable/unknockoutable fighter ever..

    born fighter Toney: Jones was more an athletic marvel.

    Jones was not that fighter for me. He was clean knocked out by single type shots several times.

    as for other point. Not my gripe at all. A poster has beef with me, so much so he had to let it all out. You’d need to ask him. I’m fine n dandy!

    Next to no idea why anyone would get so would up or irritated on an Internet forum simply agreeing:disagreeing:debating. Pathetic!



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭ squinn2912


    I need to take a better look at Toney I really wouldn’t ever have had him nearly that high but I kow you love him. I’ll get a look at some fights and see where that takes me rather than disagree in ignorance.

    That did happen Jones late on in his career like no one could lay a glove on him up until then. But it was such a rapid decline.

    Hmm yea I’m not gonna say pathetic or anything like that. I like hearing megadodge’s opinion. I do think it was a peculiar reaction though



  • Registered Users Posts: 47,983 ✭✭✭✭ walshb


    Yes. Toney isn’t as known as many others, of course.

    But his skills and intangibles and iron will/toughness and resiliency are off the charts.

    and he fought anyone and everyone. Circa 90 fights and on the floor once. Never stopped or knocked out.

    Pathetic/peculiar…whatever.

    Completely out of the blue. I don’t know this poster. All I know is that he’s a longtime poster who rarely posts lately. Had plenty back and forth, plenty agreements/disagreements, but nothing really uncivil; much the same as me and you, or me and others.

    then for weeks/months the indirect posts aimed at me or thanks to posters dissing/disagreeing with me, and then the full on rant from yesterday..not my grievance/issue. I just post here because I love boxing and views and opinions on it. And I never take it personally when other opinions/views are not the same as mine. He obviously did, as well as speaking for other posters that used to post regularly, but now seem not to because of me. Absolute horseshit.

    Post edited by walshb on


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,129 ✭✭✭ megadodge



    Make sure the top of your list is his fight with Dave Tiberi.

    Don't worry if you never heard of Tiberi. Neither did anybody else before they fought.

    He wasn't even ordinary, but he beat the sh*t out of a prime James Toney for 12 rounds, so much so Toney couldn't stand up for the decision.

    Seriously. Watch the decision.

    Immediately after one of the worst decisions in boxing history, Toney states he'd never box at middleweight again. Except he did. Twice. So much for the weight-making bullsh*t Toney fanboys spout to excuse every one of his losses.

    And just to get this in before the neverending excuses come - Toney himself has openly admitted since then, that he "got a gift that night".

    He's more honest than his fans.



  • Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭ AdrianG08


    Really depends on what you're into though.

    RJJ is one of my favourite fighters ever. Suspect chin yes, but to do what he did with a bad chin is magic too.

    Has the W over Toney in the mid 90s aswell.



  • Registered Users Posts: 47,983 ✭✭✭✭ walshb


    Contentious decisions happen all the time in boxing. Big deal. Toney/Tiberi was contentious. So what. Toney is still an ATG fighter.

    Norton/Ali 3 hugely contentious. Doesn’t at all take away from the greatness of Ali.

    Post edited by walshb on


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭ squinn2912


    Read up a bit about Toney. I’ll have to watch some more. Fighter of the year 12 years apart is impressive. But what sticks out for me is the Jones fight, it was a landslide and jones put him down too. Both young men at the time and Toney was favourite.



  • Registered Users Posts: 47,983 ✭✭✭✭ walshb


    The KD was a nothing. Jones won. A step ahead. Boring fight.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭ squinn2912


    Yea but he won at a landslide in an almost shutout that included a kd. I haven’t seen it now but that’s a chasm



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭ squinn2912


    Had a look. Toney didn’t look great but I thought the rounds were almost all fairly close. Watched it there now in a hurry but that was my impression. Toney hurt his leg, would that have something to do with him not standing? Its not a good sign when a champion can\t stand to meet the decision. If he’s admitted that then fair play to him. Looked like a loss to me but not by a mile. Very awkward fight.



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