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Gardai & Cycling

124

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,599 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    The flaw in your thinking is that its about skill.

    Its about awareness (and experience). A driver who cycles maybe more aware (more experience) of cyclists and other road users. So may drive differently, arguably safer. That the stats show a differences, means there is a difference.

    You can tell the different between someone who has this awareness and someone who hasn't. Even if they claim to be cyclist as some do to try add credibility to their viewpoint. Its obvious they don't cycle.





  • I will correct you and remind you that it is in fact John Rambo who has the flawed thinking of skill barriers I requested he provide me with evidence to support such a claim because as I made very clear I think it’s a ridiculous notion born of bias and little else.


    please in future make a better effort to ensure you’re accusing the correct person of flawed though as I assure you my train of thought is based on nothing but logical reasoning.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,599 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Wherever the hat fits...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,872 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Very interesting, amazing insights and anecdotes etc.. but not only are cyclists safer, but cyclists make better drivers. More actual facts below

    I'm not a commuter cyclist any more and I've three vehicles in the driveway, daily driver, Campervan and something nice for the weekend. beep beep!


    Feel free to back up your stories and insights with some facts too!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    If you took me on your walk, and I pointed out the majority of drivers using their phones while driving, and the high percentage of drivers breaking speed limits, and the large number of black or navy cars that are hard to see at night, and the substantial number of vehicles with one or more broken light (I spotted two vehicles with two broken brake lights each one day last week), all the things that you missed on your walk due to your own confirmation bias, where would that leave us?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    If you think Transdev have some kind of pro-cycling anti-car agenda, you would be wrong. They've been caught out showing considerable anti-cycling bias, showing a majority of cycling incidents in their selected videos released to the press while cyclists make up a minority of the crashes they encounter.

    You'll have to work harder to find excuses to ignore ALL the quantitative evidence staring you in the face.





  • You can make whatever smart ass response you like as opposed to just saying “I was wrong” but sure, suit yourself mate.





  • Have to say it’s almost embarrassing to watch grown ass adults carry on like a bunch of kids over a preference in transport method.


    i wonder if bus vs train users argue about who’s better and safer like car & bike owners do. 😂

    reeks of superiority complex. What a piss take haha.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,599 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    People want facts. They are given the facts, then they don't want facts. Because the fact are inconvenient for their choices. The reality is they want to rant and swap anecdotes about accidents they almost had, but didn't. They seem to think they can make it true the more often they repeat it, and the more long winded and verbose they can it. It will some how become reality.

    Well it won't, and you can't.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Was it not your good self who spent considerable time and effort in this diatribe, and now you're sneering at people who engage in discussion?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,599 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    The question was asked do the Garda enforce the rules on cyclists, specifically red light breaking.

    The answer is clearly yes, around half the the fixed penalty fines are for red light breaking.



    You can choose to answer the above without reference to eScooters, eBikes, Cars, buses, trains, Granny with kittens, a long wandering story about your 200yrs of vast experience, on the road, on your Raleigh Burner, or umpteen nears misses you have every 10 mins, be it walking, cycling, driving, flying etc.





  • I’m not sneering at anyone for having a discussion, rather I’m embarrassed at the clear nonsense being spewed left and right in defence of who has the better mode of transport & is the better road user.

    I’ve been around long enough to have seen this time and again & I just can never wrap my head around this idea that people can’t seem to carry on about their day using whatever transport is available to them without the need to feel better than someone else by means of using a car or bike respectively.


    I do want to make sure it’s apparent though I have absolutely nothing against a cyclist or car user based on their preferences, however I find it almost pitiful that a thread discussing whether or not Gardai are letting people off the hook for the indefensible has devolved into pulling statistics from thin air, accusing people of saying things they certainly never did & just trying to feel superior to someone.


    a lot of what I’ve seen here is a bunch of what I presume to be cyclists, ripping shreds off anyone who dares to either appear indifferent to cars vs cyclists or favours the former.


    you are free to insult my post if you like, I’m stuck in hospital at the minute and I’ve Jack else to do, so I guess I did indulge a bit. Boredom huh?

    regardless I will apologise for any offence I may have caused, I could probably have put it a little better, but I don’t think I’ll ever understand why it is so difficult for folks to just get up in the morning and use whatever vehicle they are inclined without the need for bashing and insulting everyone who does the opposite.

    i see an awful lot of either “all car owners are bollockeses” or “cyclists are bollockeses” like Christ on a bicycle it’s not that deep!

    I’m absolutely under no circumstances trying to stifle discussion either, it’s neither my interest nor indeed my right to do so. I was simply observed a great deal of quite asinine “no you!” behaviour that sees bias take over from what’s factual and I just find that sad. As I said I think if one or more persons is going to debate a given topic we should do with a factual eye rather than a bias.

    But anyway, I’m kinda done here I think. I’ll once again extend my apologies to anyone who I may have offended.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    It's kinda funny that you refer to 'bias taking over from what is factual'. The whole premise of the OP is bias taking over from what's factual - relying on personal anecdote over decades of evidence that clearly shows the real, actual, factual sources of danger on the roads (which aren't cyclists breaking red lights, just ICYMI).

    What statistics were pulled from thin air, btw?


    Hope all goes well for you with the medics.





  • Oh trust me I’ve seen plenty of absolute farce being presented as matter of fact & maybe I might get just bored enough to point it all out (maybe not though I don’t think that’s a good way to make friends of anyone 😂)

    To be fair I’m actually guilty of that right now also as you are correct to pull me up on the stats comment - I meant to say stats that are in some manner flawed for one reason or another and without more insight I would hesitate to find them a concrete source.


    specifically regarding the amount of red lights ran, how did these figures come to exist & if it’s as I presume just counting any garda intervention in those cases, that may lead to slightly flawed stats if Gardai are infact not pursuing as vehemently cyclists who run lights vs other vehicles.

    Then as I mentioned about the luas thing to me that doesn’t scream a definite “yes cars are more stupid” because as I said it’s one thing to chance driving out in front of a luas in a car where the risk of injury or death is significantly reduced vs a bike where let’s be honest you’ll more than likely die. That I would chalk up to human preservation kicking in.


    i guess I look at it like saying 99.99% of cyclists don’t cycle off cliffs like.. yeah.. I bet! 😂 I hope that I was clearer there, my bad again!

    And thank u I hope so also - thanks it is appreciated :)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,599 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Well how can you trust any Garda figures after all the messing they've done. They are at best a guide and you'd hope are representative of reality. Accident and hospital stats are similarly a guide for various reasons.

    Most of the studies people refer to have been transport or research studies. Some have been done by Luas. They generally use cameras then count them afterwards. There are also automatic traffic counters on some routes.

    Not much credibility in criticizing the data if not familiar with it. The data is at least better than no data.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,599 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Some people are multimodal. In that they use more than one form of transport in a week. The might use the car, bike, rental, light rail, mainline rail etc. in a given week depending on what they are doing.

    Those that mostly only use one form of transport are pretty obvious. They tend to be less open to any alterative form of transport.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,166 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    a lot of what I’ve seen here is a bunch of what I presume to be cyclists, ripping shreds off anyone who dares to either appear indifferent to cars vs cyclists or favours the former.

    you'll probably find that 90%+ of the cyclists here are also motorists. any accusations of bias in what would colloquially be referred to as a 'cyclist vs motorists' debate (and funny enough, this one is quiet well behaved compared to most) would probably be levelled at those who only use one of those modes. and typically the bias would usually reside on the 'motorist' side of the debate as a result.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,992 ✭✭✭DavyD_83


    In my experience Gard's see cyclists as a nuisance, rather than a road users; which I believe it's a widespread view in Ireland in general.

    Until roads are designed to be used/shared my by drivers and cyclists safely, there will always be this cars v cyclists mentality and will always be a certain type of cyclist who will (justifiably??) Ignore certain rules which were put in place without an acknowledgement of their existence.


    Also, there are degrees of red light breaking.

    Breaking a red to go straight or left when you guys the kerb and there are no pedestrians crossing makes sense. Breaking a red to go straight across a bust crossroads is serious and/or dangerous.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,599 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Live and let live.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,872 ✭✭✭John_Rambo




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    There are indeed degrees of red light breaking.

    There is red light breaking on a 10-15 kg bike doing 10-20 kmph.

    And there is red light breaking in a 1-5 tonne vehicle doing 20-150 kmph.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,792 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    you dont see many 1-5 tonne or even heavier vehicles breaking red lights as there are potential consequences for the drivers who firstly need that license for work and possibly a clean driving record... in other words a deterrent exists..secondly the Gardai would be facilitating them with zero leeway you’d imagine..motorists are under a microscope, cyclists, don’t seem to be. Zero focus on them..

    cyclists are a lesser danger to road users but good road safety is born from a culture....not one rule for one cohort of road user as relates to safety..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,872 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    I see 1.5+ tonne cars breaking lights every single day with zero consequences.

    Cyclist however, as the data and facts back up, don't break lights as much as motorists do. There simply shouldn't be one responsible cohort and one that throws caution to the wind with heavier, faster and more dangerous vehicles.

    Safety on the road is born from a culture and most cyclists are also motorists but most motorists aren't cyclists. It is imperative that motorists get out of the car and cycle for a length of time to experience the consequences of the actions of inexperienced or careless drivers.

    It will also make them better drivers as studies have shown.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,166 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    please go get an eye test. please. you must be a hideous danger on the roads if you're this unobservant.

    i saw six motorists break the lights after they'd gone red on collins avenue the other day. on a single red. the last few actually accelerated through an already red light.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    If you don't see many drivers breaking red lights, how come I've been able to produce a few videos each day showing exactly that happening? Are you suggesting that it ONLY happens in the vicinity of the small number of people who bother to record and share their content, or are you ready yet to face the reality that red light running in widespread?

    In relation to 'one rule for one cohort', are you suggesting that the same rules apply to all road users, regardless of risk?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,792 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    It happens, but the % of cyclists who I observe breaking reds compared to the number of car, van and truck drivers is far higher, massively so.

    youve been able to produce videos, simply because it does happen, nobody is claiming it doesn’t but the cyclist epidemic of breaking reds is what was being discussed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    My observation is that more vehicles will go through red lights than someone on a bike, that's pretty much inarguable. At every traffic light in a city you'll have 1,2 or 3 cars go through a light at every cycle. It just doesn't happen with people on bikes. Primarily because someone on a bike can't barge their way through traffic like some motorists do.


    The stats have been provided to you already, you just don't want to know about it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,599 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    For example buses break them constantly.

    Thousands of fines issued to cyclists is not zero focus.

    Low enforcement of motorists considering the rampant rule breaking. Certainly not under a microscope in any way.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Sorry but this is not true.

    Cars, trucks, buses all break red lights, every single time they change.

    Yep, some cyclists also do.



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  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    If you really want to be completely honest about this issue, you will find that it's pedestrians who break the most red lights.

    And that's not even including pedestrians that cross willy nilly in the middle of roads



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    If you're in the middle or back of a queue, you're less likely to see what actually goes on at traffic lights. If you're a cyclist normally at or near the front of the queue, you get a very clear view of the one or two or three cars that continue to push through when the lights go red.

    But let's put that to one side for a moment - let's say you're right, on this one particular scenario - that a higher percentage of cyclists break red lights than motorists. The question is 'So what'?

    In the context of all the issues, all the dangers, all the deaths, all the serious injuries we have on the road - so what if more cyclists break red lights than motorists? Are we having some kind of purity contest hear to see which group gets the prize from teacher for being good boys and girls, or are we actually trying to save lives and reduce serious injuries on the road.

    If we're actually interested in 'safer roads for everyone' as you claimed, what is this obsessive, narrow, nitpicking focus on cyclists breaking red lights all about? Let's be honest here - it has nothing to do with concerns about safety.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,166 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    there are some junctions where it'd actually be suicidal to go as soon as you got the green, with the number of cars accelerating through.

    as mentioned, the junction of collins avenue and the swords road is somewhere you'd typically have to sit unmoving at a green for a couple of seconds waiting for the RLJers coming from a different direction to clear the junction.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,599 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    You also got some roads where people jump the lights to turn right, across the oncoming traffic before it starts moving.

    Which leads to other people jumping their lights so to prevent people (diving) turning dangerously across them.

    (Funny how some with their vast experience on the roads never see any of this)





  • Do you know what literally means? Explain if you would where I’ve argued which mode of transport is superior to the other?

    Or is it you’re accusing me of having a superiority complex?

    i do love this about you John honestly - you throw this and that about but just leave it at that. Rather than just accuse me of God knows what why is it you couldn’t simply add why exactly you’ve drawn this conclusion?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,872 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Well, you're a sneer, you've done nothing but sneer on this thread, then, when you asked for facts and stats you were supplied them through Transdev, An Garda Siochana and crash data from insurance companies by more experienced & more knowledgable road users than yourself. Then, when you were politely schooled you lost your temper and claimed you'd "better things to do than listen to a scaldy cyclist talk a load of shite"

    Best thing for you to do now is head off and do those better things.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,166 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    this tit for tat is fascinating to read.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,599 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    Really isn't. Its also relentless. Always the same pattern. Don't research the subject then post obsessively about it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,823 ✭✭✭Allinall




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,407 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Edit

    Post edited by Pawwed Rig on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,599 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    I think people become obsessive about things, often in a negative way. It interesting that whistleblower confirms that social media companies are exploiting this. Ultimately its harmful. I don't think people realize wallowing in negativity is not a good thing.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,792 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    It’s not narrow, there is too much of an epidemic of cyclists breaking lights for it to be ‘narrow’. It’s widespread as anybody with two eyes in their head can see.

    safety is achieved through culture and enforcement...a culture of safety on our roads...means if it’s seen as reasonable for one cohort of road users to break reds and break the law without apparent regular or widespread sanction/deterrent then other groups will follow suit because that culture exists...

    law needs to be applied evenly. Cycling through red lights on a bike is not legal.. it’s dangerous...



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,166 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    how much of the garda RPU resources do you think would be dedicated to this issue? 1%? 10%?



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    How about pedestrians?

    surely if you're worried about the law being applied equally you should be advocating for fines for pedestrians. They absolutely break red lights more then any other road user.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,894 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    Those are some of the best stats ever posted on boards



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,599 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    You'd think the hospitals would be overflowing as a result of all this danger and carnage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    It is absolutely narrow in the context of road safety. We have drivers killing 2 or 3 people each week on the roads. Cyclists make up a small minority of road users, and a smaller minority of road deaths and injuries. In the context of 'making the roads safer' (your own claimed objective) it is absolutely an extremely narrow focus. If you were actually concerned about making the roads safer, your priority would be to get drivers to slow down, put their phones down, put their drinks down and not drive when exhausted. They're the things that cause death and serious injury.

    But no, the old cliché of cyclists breaking red lights, something that hasn't been at the heart of a road death or reported serious injury in living memory - that's the bit you're focusing on and calling for extra resources on. That is the epitome of narrow focus.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Indeed.

    Here's a recent report with some pretty staggering numbers

    As there are 2,820,528 licenced drivers in the state (of which 250k are learners), we're basically talking about 18% of all drivers have been caught speeding within the last 36 months

    Considering how rare it is to see a speed camera even on known checkpoint locations, its a damning statistic



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko



    Or to put it another way - how much of the Garda RPU resources would you propose to take away from drivers like this to go chasing cyclists?






  • pedestrians by way of not using the road are exempt from traffic laws.

    is the idea there that if I’m walking on a footpath and approach traffic lights I should stop moving until it’s green? 😂



  • Site Banned Posts: 20,686 ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    Now o no it's purely anecdotal, but my commute foes through approx 20 sets of Lights, some at junctions so maybe another 10 lights.


    On a good day I'll see maybe 10 of 1/2 being stopped at on amber and a 1/3 on red


    Normally amber sees cars speeding up and red is 50/50 whether the first 2-3 cars will actually stop.


    Yup I see plenty of cyclists going through them too. But this thread is acting like their the worst offenders in the road.


    I could go into the yellow box blockers, phone users, bus lane skippers, illegal turner's.


    There's a whole plethora of offences being ignored or missed by motorists that are in need of tackling sue to their danger.

    Yesterday some cretin took an illegal turn into a car park that has an exit barrier across my path. They couldn't get into car park and then had to reverse out dangerously.

    In an ideal world everything would be tackled but let's start with the most dangerous things.



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