Gardai & Cycling

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118068908#Comment_118068908

As someone who both drives and cycles (probably more of the later) I don't agree it's a 'very, very minor' issue. Cyclist's behaviour has IMO gotten a lot worse since the start of Covid and it. as well as that of people using electric scooters, has become a major issue for pedestrians in Dublin especially.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069941#Comment_118069941

The data of deaths and serious injuries on the road suggests it is a very, very minor issue.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069882#Comment_118069882

Some people don't seem to get the idea of risk-based prioritisation. When a murder happens, the police throw substantial resources at it, teams of detectives and more, given the seriousness of the issue. When my car gets broken into outside my house, they don't throw substantial or any resources at it. And by and large, we all get this.

For some reason, some people struggle with comprehending the similar approach to roads policing, with the bulk of the resources focused on the bulk of the danger - motorists.

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069960#Comment_118069960

That's because 'data' doesn't include near misses and injuries that don't require hospital treatment. Just because say elderly pedestrians (other vulnerable people as well) feel intimidated by bad behaviour on footpaths and crossings doesn't appear in some data bank doesn't make it a 'very, very minor' issue.

Confession time: As a cyclist I occasionally cycle on paths and as I've posted previously have been known to break red lights, I always do so with care and attention to others, something I see others on bikes, e-bikes, e-scooters, skateboards, etc. not doing everywhere I go in Dublin. This problem is getting worse and dismissing it as minor isn't helping.

magicbastarder

i think it's a mathematical certainty that we'd see an increase in bad behaviour from people with vehicles; if there are people using scooters now who previously would have taken the bus/wouldn't have cycled, that's adding a new cohort of people to the roads in charge of a vehicle with the capability to be dicks.

and anecdotally, there are also people driving now who previously would have used public transport, but have been avoiding PT because of covid. i wouldn't make a guess as to how big this effect is though.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069998#Comment_118069998

You're right, data doesn't include near misses and injuries that don't require hospital treatment, whether caused by motorists, cyclists or pedestrians - which by definition indicates that those incidents are very minor in nature.

Is there any reason to think that such incidents would not be reasonably proportional to the incidents that are recorded?

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070032#Comment_118070032

One straight off reason I can think of is that say for instance you receive a 'minor' injury from a bicycle as opposed to a car you are a lot less likely to pursue it in the courts with a cyclist than with a motorist who is insured and this encourages/requires medical assessment, at the very least, and probably reporting it to the Gardai as part of the legal process. Thus it becomes a 'statistic' whereas with a cyclist there's not even a number plate to remember so most victims of collisions with cyclists will just tell their friends about it and that's the end of the matter.

Flinty997

You seem to be arguing that minor things are not minor but are not recorded because they are minor...

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070126#Comment_118070126

Have you ever seen anyone quoting such statistics here or elsewhere - minor insurance claims against car drivers that weren't reported in Garda or RSA statistics?

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070250#Comment_118070250

No, I'm arguing that 'minor' things where bicycles are involved are less likely to be recorded than 'minor' things where cars are involved. Minor is subjective anyway, some 'minor' injuries get people tens of thousands in the Irish courts.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070291#Comment_118070291

Well you kinda are. Anyway forget cars and compo culture.

Since this is a thread in theory about Garda enforcement of cycling laws, fixed penalty fines.

What in that context is minor and what needs changing in your opinion.

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070322#Comment_118070322

"What in that context is minor and what needs changing in your opinion."

As I said 'minor' is subjective, what's minor to one person might be 'major' to someone else.

More Garda enforcement, even just stopping people. On the spot fines, impounding bikes, etc. It would help in Dublin if we had municipal police like they have on the continent who could concentrate on these types of offences.

Seth Brundle

Since this is a thread in theory about Garda enforcement of cycling laws, fixed penalty fines.

How do you propose that gardai enforce these laws? Do we need gardai everywhere (in which case where do we get the garda numbers required?) or are you proposing to have reg plates on bikes for easier identification (how much would such a system cost to implement and maintain)?

What exactly are the core issues that you are hoping to resolve through this new no-nonsense enforcement?

Out of curiosity, what other countries have the level of enforcement that you are looking for?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070406#Comment_118070406

There ARE on the spot fines.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/almost-5-000-on-the-spot-fines-issued-to-cyclists-1.3977141

Maybe you could suggest how you can get the more enforcement and a specialist police to enforce same based on almost no data to support the assertion that is a major problem more important than other things going on.

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070656#Comment_118070656

So that's an average of 1,250 on the spot fines issued per year or just over 100/month (less than four per day) in the whole of the ROI. If they were serious they could issue that amount in a single day on the streets of Dublin alone.

I don't need data for something that's obvious and that I encounter practically every day of my life. If I go walking I will inevitably either have a cyclist whiz past my shoulder or meet them head on where they seem to expect me to step aside and are surprised when I don't. Cyclists in dark clothing at night without lights, groups of youngsters on bikes cycling on the wrong side of the road, up and down off paths. If you live in Dublin just open your eyes.

Flinty997

I'm asking you what would you change and how do you justify it's priority to the authorities who have to implement those changes.

Anecdotal stories of accidents that might happen but actually didn't and rules and laws that already exist is not making any meaningful case for change of any kind.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070832#Comment_118070832

How much Garda resources would you suggest diverting away from the current already negligible levels of enforcement of motoring laws to go chasing cyclists, given that we have 98% of drivers breaking urban speed limits, majority of drivers using their phones while driving, and more.

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070931#Comment_118070931

I've told you what I'd change. I'd justify it by telling them that the widespread flouting of cycling laws is indicative of almost zero levels of enforcement and it's adversely affecting the quality of life in this city. My stories may be anecdotal to you but to me they're real.

doubtless they aren't 'meaningful' to anyone who only thinks in terms of data and statistics but if you have to keep looking over your shoulder for fear of being hit by some idiot on a bike they are.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071102#Comment_118071102

Whilst there are undoubtedly some people on a bike that are being stupid, your post is blatantly melodramatic.

The quality life in Dublin is being adversely affected? What utter nonsense!

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069237#Comment_118069237

They endanger pedestrians too... the example I gave ,it was only timing as the cyclist despite the red light, didn’t slow a fraction...lady and a small dog... absolutely poxy behavior...

the worst junction I’ve been to is George’s St / Dame St at rush hour... where I’ve been clipped by one of them...and seen others abused by cyclists at the same junction just ploughing through because they believe it’s appropriate to disregard the safety and wellbeing of pedestrians to save two minutes... it’s just weird. What’s exactly the problem with stopping, waiting and proceeding when the light is green ?

Want a culture of safety on our roads everyone needs to contribute and play their part, too many cyclists ain’t.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071102#Comment_118071102

Unfortunately, your justification ignores the reality that diverting Garda resources away from the near-zero levels of enforcement for motorists to go chasing cyclists will increase the likelihood of further death and injury on the road.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071175#Comment_118071175

Good question, what exactly is the problem with waiting for a green light.

https://streamable.com/l3fwjk

Seems like some people have forgotten what the amber light is for.

It's funny how some people are totally surprised by the idea that cyclists break traffic lights, in the context of the widespread breaking of traffic laws by almost every motorist on the road.

Can we take that all the lads in uproar about cyclists breaking red lights never break a speed limit themselves?

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070291#Comment_118070291

but how do you know these things are even happening? you're just kind of making up the fact that they do

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070406#Comment_118070406

Having used bikes in Spain for years and years I can tell you the Policia Municipal do not give a sh*t if you're on a footpath or cycling the wrong way on one way streets, they are smart enough to know it's harmless.

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071295#Comment_118071295

What things am I making up? That 'minor' accidents happen involving cyclists and pedestrians?

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071304#Comment_118071304

I've used bikes in Spain too over many years. Irish police don't necessarily have to follow what the Spanish do. For instance I've seen reports of Spanish police dealing with motorists who don't show them the respect they believe they're due forcing the motorist to stand at the side of the road with their pants around their ankles. Imagine if the Gardai tried that here, they'd be hauled through the courts and have to pay out large sums in compo.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070291#Comment_118070291

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071630#Comment_118071630

Ah the old pretend you don't understand the point to muddy the water trick.

Minor incidents happen whether they be person to person, bike to person, car to car etc.

Where a car and a pedestrian are involved it is less likely to be minor given the nature of the size imbalance but car to car incidents are resolved all the time without reporting.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071102#Comment_118071102

They would argue the fines issued prove you wrong.

You could collect evidence to prove your point, but they could dismiss that as not everyone thinks in terms data and statistics (facts).

Kind of a catch 22.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071652#Comment_118071652

... and we're back to motorists.... :)

Flinty997

Few will argue there isn't enough enforcement of cyclists and other road users.

But to argue its a significant public safety issue you'll needed stats on collisions leading to injury.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071630#Comment_118071630

Yes you can't just assume there are minor cyclist V pedestrian accidents happening all the time because you feel it's probably happening. It's like how people who hate people who use bikes always have stories of themselves or old people "nearly" being hit by bikes on footpaths all the time. Non events.