Gardai & Cycling

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070291#Comment_118070291

Well you kinda are. Anyway forget cars and compo culture.

Since this is a thread in theory about Garda enforcement of cycling laws, fixed penalty fines.

What in that context is minor and what needs changing in your opinion.

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070322#Comment_118070322

"What in that context is minor and what needs changing in your opinion."

As I said 'minor' is subjective, what's minor to one person might be 'major' to someone else.

More Garda enforcement, even just stopping people. On the spot fines, impounding bikes, etc. It would help in Dublin if we had municipal police like they have on the continent who could concentrate on these types of offences.

Seth Brundle

Since this is a thread in theory about Garda enforcement of cycling laws, fixed penalty fines.

How do you propose that gardai enforce these laws? Do we need gardai everywhere (in which case where do we get the garda numbers required?) or are you proposing to have reg plates on bikes for easier identification (how much would such a system cost to implement and maintain)?

What exactly are the core issues that you are hoping to resolve through this new no-nonsense enforcement?

Out of curiosity, what other countries have the level of enforcement that you are looking for?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070406#Comment_118070406

There ARE on the spot fines.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/almost-5-000-on-the-spot-fines-issued-to-cyclists-1.3977141

Maybe you could suggest how you can get the more enforcement and a specialist police to enforce same based on almost no data to support the assertion that is a major problem more important than other things going on.

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070656#Comment_118070656

So that's an average of 1,250 on the spot fines issued per year or just over 100/month (less than four per day) in the whole of the ROI. If they were serious they could issue that amount in a single day on the streets of Dublin alone.

I don't need data for something that's obvious and that I encounter practically every day of my life. If I go walking I will inevitably either have a cyclist whiz past my shoulder or meet them head on where they seem to expect me to step aside and are surprised when I don't. Cyclists in dark clothing at night without lights, groups of youngsters on bikes cycling on the wrong side of the road, up and down off paths. If you live in Dublin just open your eyes.

Flinty997

I'm asking you what would you change and how do you justify it's priority to the authorities who have to implement those changes.

Anecdotal stories of accidents that might happen but actually didn't and rules and laws that already exist is not making any meaningful case for change of any kind.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070832#Comment_118070832

How much Garda resources would you suggest diverting away from the current already negligible levels of enforcement of motoring laws to go chasing cyclists, given that we have 98% of drivers breaking urban speed limits, majority of drivers using their phones while driving, and more.

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070931#Comment_118070931

I've told you what I'd change. I'd justify it by telling them that the widespread flouting of cycling laws is indicative of almost zero levels of enforcement and it's adversely affecting the quality of life in this city. My stories may be anecdotal to you but to me they're real.

doubtless they aren't 'meaningful' to anyone who only thinks in terms of data and statistics but if you have to keep looking over your shoulder for fear of being hit by some idiot on a bike they are.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071102#Comment_118071102

Whilst there are undoubtedly some people on a bike that are being stupid, your post is blatantly melodramatic.

The quality life in Dublin is being adversely affected? What utter nonsense!

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069237#Comment_118069237

They endanger pedestrians too... the example I gave ,it was only timing as the cyclist despite the red light, didn’t slow a fraction...lady and a small dog... absolutely poxy behavior...

the worst junction I’ve been to is George’s St / Dame St at rush hour... where I’ve been clipped by one of them...and seen others abused by cyclists at the same junction just ploughing through because they believe it’s appropriate to disregard the safety and wellbeing of pedestrians to save two minutes... it’s just weird. What’s exactly the problem with stopping, waiting and proceeding when the light is green ?

Want a culture of safety on our roads everyone needs to contribute and play their part, too many cyclists ain’t.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071102#Comment_118071102

Unfortunately, your justification ignores the reality that diverting Garda resources away from the near-zero levels of enforcement for motorists to go chasing cyclists will increase the likelihood of further death and injury on the road.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071175#Comment_118071175

Good question, what exactly is the problem with waiting for a green light.

https://streamable.com/l3fwjk

Seems like some people have forgotten what the amber light is for.

It's funny how some people are totally surprised by the idea that cyclists break traffic lights, in the context of the widespread breaking of traffic laws by almost every motorist on the road.

Can we take that all the lads in uproar about cyclists breaking red lights never break a speed limit themselves?

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070291#Comment_118070291

but how do you know these things are even happening? you're just kind of making up the fact that they do

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070406#Comment_118070406

Having used bikes in Spain for years and years I can tell you the Policia Municipal do not give a sh*t if you're on a footpath or cycling the wrong way on one way streets, they are smart enough to know it's harmless.

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071295#Comment_118071295

What things am I making up? That 'minor' accidents happen involving cyclists and pedestrians?

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071304#Comment_118071304

I've used bikes in Spain too over many years. Irish police don't necessarily have to follow what the Spanish do. For instance I've seen reports of Spanish police dealing with motorists who don't show them the respect they believe they're due forcing the motorist to stand at the side of the road with their pants around their ankles. Imagine if the Gardai tried that here, they'd be hauled through the courts and have to pay out large sums in compo.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070291#Comment_118070291

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071630#Comment_118071630

Ah the old pretend you don't understand the point to muddy the water trick.

Minor incidents happen whether they be person to person, bike to person, car to car etc.

Where a car and a pedestrian are involved it is less likely to be minor given the nature of the size imbalance but car to car incidents are resolved all the time without reporting.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071102#Comment_118071102

They would argue the fines issued prove you wrong.

You could collect evidence to prove your point, but they could dismiss that as not everyone thinks in terms data and statistics (facts).

Kind of a catch 22.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071652#Comment_118071652

... and we're back to motorists.... :)

Flinty997

Few will argue there isn't enough enforcement of cyclists and other road users.

But to argue its a significant public safety issue you'll needed stats on collisions leading to injury.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071630#Comment_118071630

Yes you can't just assume there are minor cyclist V pedestrian accidents happening all the time because you feel it's probably happening. It's like how people who hate people who use bikes always have stories of themselves or old people "nearly" being hit by bikes on footpaths all the time. Non events.

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118072270#Comment_118072270

I know of someone who was hit by a cyclist and had her arm in a sling, of course it could all have been in her imagination I suppose. I mean all those cowboys on bikes riding on the footpaths they're so skillful and all. Lol

Pawwed Rig

Again where are all these cyclists thundering down footpaths? It definitely is not in Dublin anyway. I wonder is it a regional thing.

magicbastarder

huh. no-one answered my question about what proportion of the garda RPU resources should be allocated to tackling errant cyclists.

anyway, based on the one stat which is (kinda) unequivocal, fatalities. since the year 2000 there have been approx 5,500 fatalities on irish roads. the number from that which are known cases where the actions of a cyclist were responsible for another person's death is 1, from 2002 IIRC. there's a case from a couple of years ago too where a cylist and pedestrian collision resulted in the death of the pedestrian but i'm not aware of any official report which might detail responsibility.

granted, some of the cyclist deaths over the years will have been as a result of their own actions, but if we're talking about cyclists posing a danger to *other* road users and peds, it's 1 or 2 out of those 5.5k deaths.

so purely in terms of fatalities (and allowing an absolutely plucked out of the air guess that 50% of the 5.5k deaths were suffered by the blameless party) we're looking at cyclists being responsible between maybe 0.05% and 0.1% of them.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118072860#Comment_118072860

If this thread, or this forum, is to be conducted on the basis that only fatalities count and that other lawbreaking is therefore acceptable, then the thread should be locked at there is no point in debate.

magicbastarder

Okay, maybe I didn't make it obvious enough for you that I picked fatalities specifically because that's the one stat which is maintained to a usually reliable extent.

Did you really think that I was arguing that non fatalities don't matter?

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118064738#Comment_118064738

Whilst your observations, hypothetical scenarios and anecdotes are fascinating, the simple facts remain. Cyclists are better, more skilled and safer road users than motorists.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118072911#Comment_118072911

Maybe you could tell us, what is the point of starting a thread with obviously false premise. Then continuously posting like this in many threads over a long period of time on the same subject.

There are fines for cyclists. The question becomes enforcement. You have to prove it's not being enforced and it's causing a major safety issue relative to other issues. These threads and posts fail in this regard every time. So you have to ask why if it can't be backed up with anything do they keep posting the same stuff. Over and over again.

We've had lots of scandal's with the Garda. Whistle blowers. Lots of people complaining about Garda lack of Garda presence in the streets, people getting attacked, getting robbed, burgled. No Garda response. If you think there's a safety issue greater than these, your gonna have to do better to convince people then this lackluster effort.

Yet people here think the Garda have the resources (or the will) for a zero tolerance enforcement on minor issues. Every eScooter ridden in a public space is illegal.

Strumms

resources are placed to other jobs like checking tax and insurance.... nobody dies because people are without tax, insurance or both....but it needs to be done...it’s in the Garda remit.

so the argument that Gardai should be only used to prevent potential fatalities is really disingenuous....

cyclists are neither better or more skilled then motorists, they are safer statistically only due to the fact they have a far smaller, lighter mode of transport..there are less of them using our roads at any one time.

they habitually and with more frequency disregard the rules of the road and by doing so put themselves and others in potential danger... for no other reason then they believe they should be of the ability to and they want to get from A to B faster and nobody else and their wellbeing should count, it’s ALL about them....

Safety on our roads is a ‘culture’ thing... for that to be attainable there needs to be buy in from 100% of road users... adherence to stopping at red lights, signaling when turning, not cycling down pedestrian pathways at speed towards primary school kids and secondary kids coming out of adjoining schools which I see near me...

Pawwed Rig

I would argue with the your comment that they 'more frequently'disregard the rules of the road for the simple fact that they generally are unable to break speed limits. Urban speed limits are disregarded by a majority of drivers.

Your rant about what cyclists believe about anyones wellbeing is a silly generalisation which you even must admit is nonsense. Overall you have made some good valid points but you can't stand over that one?

What I would say when driving, cycling, walking is that your safety IS primarily YOUR responsibility but the more potential damage you can cause gives you a higher rate of responsibility to look out for others. Hence why you need special licenses for buses/trucks etc.

magicbastarder

also, it's not possible for a cyclist to break the speed limit because speed limits only apply to motorised vehicles.

an insurance company in the UK did some research and found that their customers who declared themselves as cyclists were only half as likely to submit a claim compared to non-cyclists. cyclists make better drivers, and drivers make better cyclists.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118074054#Comment_118074054

At least one UK insurance company disagrees with your claim that cyclists aren't better skilled. They're confident that cyclists are better drivers than non-cyclists, and offer insurance discounts accordingly.

Just getting back to your claim that cyclists 'habitually and with more frequency disregard the rules of the road' - would you like to present some evidence of this, particularly in the light of the RSA Speed Survey showing that 98% of drivers break urban speed limits.

You might also present some evidence that cyclists 'put themselves and others in potential danger', given that decades of road safety data suggests that it is motorists that put themselves and others in very real danger every day.

In terms of culture and buy-in from 100% of road users, do you ever notice this kind of thing yourself on the road;

https://twitter.com/righttobikeit/status/1452903074457079810

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118072860#Comment_118072860

Actually, there were two deaths where cyclists were responsible for the other party's death - the 2002 case and one in either 2019 or 2020 on a cycle path somewhere in Tipp. But the relative scale of the causes of deaths on the road that you set out still stands.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118072911#Comment_118072911

Would you like to present some alternative data about the comparative rates of injuries caused by motorists, motorcyclists, cyclists and pedestrians perhaps?

Strumms

More drivers break urban speed limits then cyclists because their vehicles are of the capacity to do so more then cyclists they are also more prevalent on our roads...

it’s not about speed, safety is about culture. Too many cyclists add to a culture of unsafe roads because of simply disregarding the rules of the road and therefore the safety of fellow road users.

evidence ? My opinion is based on my experience, being on the road six days a week, being on regular trips around Dublin 9,11,13, 3,7, 1&2 and beyond where cycling and cyclists are prevalent and observing systematically their behaviors and idiotsyncrasies...over a prolonged timeframe.... many of them are just selfish, dangerous and unsatisfactory road users to be truthful...

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118074054#Comment_118074054

so the argument that Gardai should be only used to prevent potential fatalities is really disingenuous....

That's not the arument. Its already been proven, that minor cycling offences are fined and enforced.

The argument you're making is that some thing less dangerous should more enforced the same, (or more) than something less dangerous.

While not being able to demonstrate in any way that it as dangerous or more dangerous. Or as someone suggested making the pavements across the whole city, country even, unusable.

Even the anecdotal tale of woe in the open post, there was no injury. It was a near miss. There was no accident. There is rule breaking though, for which there are fines for.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118074431#Comment_118074431

but they're not dangerous road users in the slightest. They don't harm people or cause congestion or anything like that, all they do is make people healthier and keep the air clean.

Do you feel the same level of annoyance towards motorists with all the actual damage they do?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118074431#Comment_118074431

It's difficult to take your concerns about safety culture seriously, when you dismiss speeding by motorists (one of the top three causes of road deaths) with a flimsy excuse like "More drivers break urban speed limits then cyclists because their vehicles are of the capacity to do so more then cyclists".

Drivers are supposed to know the capacity of their vehicles and control the vehicle accordingly. It's not a great excuse really.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118074431#Comment_118074431

So are most road users.

There are rules and fines for all of this.

Seth Brundle

More drivers break urban speed limits then cyclists because their vehicles are of the capacity to do so more then cyclists they are also more prevalent on our roads...

Cyclists cannot break urban speed limits simply because they do not apply to them!

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118074372#Comment_118074372

that's the case i was referring to, that i'd not seen any official report on it to determine what had happened.

Cyclingtourist

I'm a cyclist primarily but I also own a car for occasional use. I'm also a pedestrian of course and it's my experience and observations as such that have mostly informed my contributions to this thread.

I've noticed a significant change, particularly over the last couple of years due to two factors. Firstly the increasing growth of e-transport other than cars, things like e-bikes and scooters. Secondly during Covid more people are riding bikes who probably haven't ridden one since childhood.

E-bikes allow people to cycle at higher speeds especially when going uphill which increases the potential for accidents especially when coupled with lack of experience.

My impression is that during the Covid lockdowns the Gardai had other priorities/duties imposed upon them and as well were anxious not to antagonise the public so have adopted an even lower level of cycling enforcement.

magicbastarder

E-bikes allow people to cycle at higher speeds especially when going uphill which increases the potential for accidents especially when coupled with lack of experience.

again, potentially due to a lack of enforcement as e-bikes legally should not provide assistance above 25km/h. but i've seen lots of bikes which were clearly in breach of the regs.

Podge_irl

Enforcement of road traffic laws in general is utterly abhorrently poor. It is universally poor across all road users. Behaviour on the roads is pretty universally poor also. Cyclists shouldn't be breaking red lights but drivers are not "mis-timing" things, they bloody well full know what they are doing when they consistently break lights also.

Resourcing is finite and should be directed at the biggest problem.

Also camera enforcement should be allowed. Maybe that will free up some gardaí to focus on the cyclists but I suspect the motorists won't be happy about the outcome.

magicbastarder

i used to say 'when i drive, the only other road users who threaten my safety are drivers, and when i cycle the only other road users who threaten my safety are drivers', but that was before i encountered a chap on the rock road who i can only guess was off his gourd on coke, and started our encounter by picking his bike up, literally throwing it onto the footpath and squaring up to me in the road in front of me.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118073414#Comment_118073414

I appreciate you enjoyed reading my post! However, I’d like to see some evidence to support this claim and show that it’s not just speculation or biased opinion. I won’t argue that there may be indeed be a higher ratio of collisions caused by car (and similar vehicle) drivers compared to cyclists, however the fact is there is also (afaik) a higher % of car owners than those who cycle as their main mode of transport & I think it was said earlier in the thread that getting hit by a car would be better than a bike haha.

id have to argue that comparing bikes and cars is the same as apples to oranges. They’re similarities start and stop with “they are modes of transport” you can’t really say the skill to cycle a bike is greater to or equal than the skills required to drive a car. I mean were that the case would you therefore argue that you should be required to pass a theory & cycle test and possess a licence to cycle a bike? I doubt that very much because it would be a farce. I think the base of a good debate starts with being honest. If you wish to continue this topic with me, I suggest you start by telling yourself the truth, not some crazy fallacies about the skill barrier between a push bike and a car.

However, I will absolutely agree that the majority of motor vehicle drivers have some sort of idea in their heads that they own the roads they drive on (maybe it’s the car tax?) and will behave as though any error - especially ones on their part are your fault. I’m not a bicycle user but I do have an escooter, where I live has no cycle lanes so I stick close to the footpaths or the hard shoulders but the safest way for me to ride is off the paths and on the road but I make as much effort as I can to stay out of peoples way, but I can’t begin to even think how many occasions I’ve had car drivers (funnily it’s always cars not jeeps, vans etc) run a stop sign and blow their horn at me because I had right of way and the same nonsense on roundabouts especially.

the point there being I don’t necessarily agree that driving a car is easier than cycling a bike, but certainly some people should not hold a licence and it’s a **** miracle they got one in the first place. I’ve argued on many an occasion that a licence expires after about 10 years I think isn’t it for a full licence and anyone wishing to renew should be made to sit their drivers test again or some sort of competency exam. I can’t for love nor money understand how someone can get a full licence at 18 and drive for say 50 years renewing their licence 5 times in that space and never be required to revisit their test. its a joke.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118074636#Comment_118074636

The proof is in the evidence and stats I already provided in Dublin City Centre where in some parts there's more bikes than cars. According to Transdev, the LUAS people motorists account for more than half of all crashes and emergency braking incidents, pedestrians more than one third and cyclists less than 10 per cent. In 2016 Gardai recorded 24 times more motorists than cyclists breaking red lights. The figures show that 1,296 cars in Dublin were recorded breaking a red light so far in 2016 – 24 times the rate of cyclists caught breaking red lights (54) in the same period.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118074550#Comment_118074550

The question therefore arises. Should take peoples opinion as more important than actual studies and research.

if so, who's opinion should we act one. Yours or mine. if everyone said they don't want taxes should we just do that.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118074660#Comment_118074660

getting caught, right... there is SFA attitude to policing cyclists.

and how many traffic lights are in the city center ? How many do transdev monitor ? Transdev are a private for profit company... there reporting is done with their self interest in mind...a car will damage a tram whereas a bike won’t.

magicbastarder

are you suggesting they don't record emergency braking events involving cyclists?

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118075102#Comment_118075102

You should take reputable studies/research and people's verifiable experience into account. Verifiable in the sense I could have taken you walking in my Dublin neighbourhood earlier today and shown you a cyclist and an e-scooter both traveling at speed on a footpath about 18-24 inches from numerous shop exits.

if everyone voted to remove some or even all taxes yes they should be removed. People say lots of things especially when asked loaded questions in surveys that then get quoted in studies.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118074660#Comment_118074660

See that’s different to what you just said earlier. What you asserted was there is a higher skill barrier to cycling a bike vs driving a car. This is the part I take most objection to & if you could provide evidence to support that claim please?

All you’ve effectively proven with those statistics (are they to be considered accurate) is

1. some car drivers in Dublin are arseholes
2. cyclists don’t tend to cycle in front of the Luas.

and I mean of course they don’t, if you get hit by one on a bicycle let’s be fair, you’re probably going to die. A car? Not as likely depending on the speed of the collision but you at least have a metal shell, air bags etc to protect you to some degree. I think it’s disingenuous to asset that cycling is a higher skilled activity than driving a car or in fact that a cyclist is inherently less reckless by virtue of not wanting to cause a collision. I would argue however that it’s largely a self interest thing and the nature of human preservation. in general, we don’t do things we are almost certain will injur or kill us, which definitely falls under the category of “not riding ur bike on a luas line”. As for the red light thing; the entire topic of this thread is discussing the potential that Gardai turn a blind eye to cyclists breaking the rules of the road, why would that not carry onto any road statistics?

One would assume that they used garda records for fines, traffic stops etc to come to these numbers and they didn’t just place Gardai around the city with a clicker to count every time they saw someone run a red light over a period of time & for that reason I feel those numbers are a farce and hold little if any relevance.

but yeah, riding a bike which I’ve done since I was 7 or so is definitely harder than driving a car. Sure. 😂

I also would like you to not ignore my point regarding the requirement, if we are to assume cycling is a more skilled activity than driving a car; would you not then agree a theory & bicycle type “drivers test” of sorts and a licence should be made mandatory especially if you intend to use your bike on a road or cycle lane, etc?

I get an air of “hate car owners” off everything you’ve said so far, you appear to have little concrete evidence to support your claim and you’re pulling any old shite from the sky in an effort to sound both coherent and an authority on the subject. However you are clearly biased as a bicycle user. Myself however neither drives nor cycles (as mentioned I use an escooter) and while I absolutely in my time have observed gross incompetence among some drivers, I would be stupid, frankly to insist that my mode of transport is of a higher skill barrier than driving a car.

how on earth you can sit there with a straight face and tell me the activity which requires the passing of not only a theory test, practical test & (12?) driving lessons with a qualified instructor and to therefore then be granted a license to drive, which should you fail to do so safely will be revoked for a period or indefinitely requires less skill than the thing kids as young as toddlers are doing (riding a bike) is frankly shocking.

worse than anything else, you’ve not only refused to support the ridiculous notions you’ve made, but you still sit there and try to debate me on this subject using fallacies after I explicitly made clear I will not engage in a debate where the debated party cannot even be honest with themselves, let alone me. As if you think I’m going to sit here and be spoon fed your rubbish while I nod my head and shake my fist at all car users.

might I suggest, perhaps, you spend some time assessing the things you’ve said, appreciate how ludicrous they are and if you want to continue a debate on the subject return to me without talking shite, frankly, otherwise just leave me alone because I’ve better things to do than listen to a scaldy cyclist talk a load of shite.