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Heavyweight Boxing

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    Helenius is mandatory for usky aj winner apparently



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,148 ✭✭✭✭normanoffside




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    Helenius new mandatory for WBA belt. As a poster earlier mentioned.. they're probably likely to be split up rather than any unification ever happening


    Neither Martin or the Fin are.wprth more than half a dozen round with Usyk or AJ


    Martin only managed 2 with AJ



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,868 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Surely Trevor Bryan is automatically mandatory? He’s the regular champion..

    you’d get lost with these organisations



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    He's some champ alright. Rather than call out for a shot at the title, this dope calls out a 55 year mike tyson.


    Aim high champ 🤣


    There isn't alot of quality floating about stateside in the HW division



  • Registered Users Posts: 6 MrWisdom


    I think Furys corner knew to give DW a few rounds to tire. Attempting a new style with 1.5 stone muscle extra was a bad idea.

    I also think Fury is taking shots he doesn't need to take. It was definitly the right idea to back Wilder up but a few years ago Fury doesn't get hit with many of those shots.

    He was even getting clipped against Wallin with shot's I haven't seen him take before.He's dropped a lot of his boxing IMO. Head movement, feints, boxing outside.

    He has the heart of a lion and can take a shot but there is no need to walk through shots like he is doing IMO.

    He's dropped a lot of his boxing IMO. Head movement, feints, boxing outside.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭US2


    Fury has taken heavy shots In almost everyone of his fights that I can remember apart from Vlad and schawrtz



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    I think his boxing has come on a lot. He’s always been very good with defensive movement but unorthadox positions allow him to get hit. Moving almost 7 ft out of the way isn’t easy. It depends on the style he’s chosen and the trainer. Peter had him boxing at range and that worked well against a great opponent like Wlad or a slow one like Chisora II (this was the poorest I’ve ever seen Chisora, even counting the Haye fight). When Ben D trained him he had all the weight on so they were managing that and he fought against lower opposition until Wilder I where he boxed and moved very well but still was rusty and stamina not built up enough so he got caught and clipped. I think he neglected to follow trainer’s advice esp in the 12th round. Then Sugarhill turned him into an aggressive, attacking fighter (for Wilder anyway). It’s really exciting and it uses all of his attributes but there’s risk. I’m not sure the older more timid style would have enabled him to keep away from Wilder as well and he’d have been punching while dancing away so getting far less of his own power in. I think these last two fights have seen him develop into the very best version of himself, even if he did get caught in the 4th the other night. I think this version wipes out 2015 Wlad and hammers the version that aj defeated, possibily ina similar fashion to the other night, climbing off the canvas to win via ko.

    If AJ had beaten Usyk then what a fight that would be to make. If he retires now then I wouldn’t think much of him as the greatest of the era, he still has more to do. There are other rivals than Wilder and he’s favourite to beat them all but he’s not done it yet. I think his biggest enemy is himself for his next fight. Say it were Whyte well I could see motivation being an issue, he won’t get into Whyte’s head as much and Whyte will be game as on fight night. A lacklustre performance and Whyte could very well ko him. I’d count that less of a shock than Douglas or Rachmann, and Fury has the tendancy to throw the head up. On his A Game then he rips Whyte apart.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,868 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    I think a Fury with no training and just his normal fight weight still easily beats Whyte

    folks also talking about Whyte beating AJ. Whyte still has the same chance as he did years ago. A KO. Even a less aggressive and more cautious AJ easily outboxes Whyte.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    It's a disgrace really that it's taken so long for the top fighters to actually start fighting each other.

    Too much money padding going on. Joshua had 14 pro fights before actually meeting anyone semi decent in Dillian Whyte.

    Joshua became IBF champ in 2016. Fury beat Wladimir in 2015. 5/6 years later and a countless number of PPV events later and they still haven't fought.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    If he has no training then he’s not switched on and he would be in danger. Whyte is a big ignorant lump and he hasn’t anything like the mental fragility of Wilder.

    I dismissed the chance of him beating aj for long and long but it was to some who were telling me Usyk would beat him. I’m less confident now. I know aj believes he has his beating and that’s huge in this fight. I doubt it if they’ll meet again with both in a strong position.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,935 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    I think he purposely dropped the "boxing" for fighting Wilder , Just because if he was caught off balance or ducking into a shot it would be game over,

    If your going to be tagged by Wilder better off its chin down biting on your mouth piece expecting it to come rather than getting caught as your try to duck & weave, Fury expected to be hit he said plenty of times you can't shower without getting wet,

    Also i noticed Lennox on commentary kept saying Fury is smothering his own work in the later rounds that he needed to step back to finish him but it was obvious that was Fury's tactic to give Wilder no space to catch him with a hail Mary shot, There no question Fury could feel Wilder tiring & new if he just kept on him the stoppage would come, No way was Fury going that far in the fight and stepping off looking for a KO only to be caught himself,

    I



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    That’s been an age old thing. Look at Tyson’s first 15 odd fights. Then even look at the next 15. He didn’t meet anyone really until Berbeck.

    Fury took 3.5 years out and then the rematch clause held it up, Joshua had to fight Usyk. It’s hard to make all align.



  • Registered Users Posts: 982 ✭✭✭AdrianG08


    Completely agree, refusal to give Wilder any space was completely misread as being sloppy and smothering his own work. He did completely respect Wilders power so it was a smart move IMO.

    Re Whyte, I can see motivation being an issue. For some reason I can just see Fury not wanting to fight him. Citing it as not being a challenge to get him in the zone for training, maybe not wanting to give Eddie Hearn the payday etc... I get the impression he doesn't like people dictating to him whom he should fight. So will be interesting to see what he does if the WBC orders him to do so (lets not forget Wallin could beat Whyte and Fury didn't look hectic against Wallin last time). So imagine WBC order he fights Wallin, he might say been there done that and vacate and wait for Usyk/AJ.

    Would love to see him fight Whyte, would be good build up, and allow him return to UK to promote himself, but to be honest you just never know with him. He may have a breakdown, balloon in weight etc... with no really big challenge on the horizon, think he is genuinely gutted that AJ was beaten as that was the real carrot to keep him focused.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,935 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Whyte will start calling Fury all sorts & Fury will do the same in return and it will get Fury motivated

    It'll be a real edge there always is with Whyte , his brother Dean (who's not his brother) & Shane Fury have called each out before for a scrap so there will be fire works



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,935 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    I seen lots of people on Twitter even some ex fighters talking about the ref's count & how he stopped to tell Wilder to go into his corner,

    It baffles me as to why, Its the 10 Count not a 10 second rule , The ref counts at his own discretion & also has every right to stop the count to tell the other fighter to go to the corner as he is not allowed to receive advise during the 10 count so he has to go to a neutral corner ,

    Also the rule was brought in as a gentleman's agreement to give fighter a chance to go again hence why its not counted quickly or protested against often , ,


    I think video games and the likes have made people see the rule differently where your in a panic to beat the count,

    In real life & in the pro game if the ref see's your getting up and not totally out of it he will give you every chance to continue even more so in a world title fight ,



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,868 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Lot folks don't realize it's a 10 count, not a 10 seconds count.



  • Registered Users Posts: 842 ✭✭✭Butson


    How do people see the state of boxing in general now?

    All the usual problems remain in terms of too many belts / tv stations etc but it does seem to be transferring into the mainstream more and more lately.

    Friends of mine who never watched a fight in the last 10 years have all been watching Canelo and the heavyweight fights this year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 982 ✭✭✭AdrianG08


    People can say what they like about Eddie Hearn, but he is a fantastic promoter. Hopefully DAZN is a real success and alot more marquee names come under that umbrella and fights get made easier. Production values from Matchroom are also terrific, the razz matazz really brings in casual viewers, big entrances etc.. its all very WWE but its small things like that that end up putting extra eyes on the sport at end of the day.

    His move across the water into the US market has been cool I think, the Canelo v Saunders show production wise was big improvement on the usual fare you get at US fights. Even fights in vegas lack the kind of tv production value that should be the norm.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,015 ✭✭✭ebbsy


    The only meaningful fight for Fury now is Usyk.

    Whyte / Fury is a non event.

    AJ, based on the last fight, has little chance vs Usyk.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,935 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Hearn annoys the hell out of me,

    He is now adamant that Whyte should fight Fury next when the public want Usyk v Fury and many even saying Fury should wait and fight the winner But when Whyte was AJ's mandatory Eddie didn't push it at all because it wasn't what the public wanted ,

    Id love to see Wilder v AJ but i don't think we will ever see that one ,



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,868 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    But AJ plans not to be like he was in his last fight....that's why to say he has no chance is a little odd..

    He plans to reverse the Usyk decision...

    May not mean he wins, but surely he could have a chance?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,015 ✭✭✭ebbsy


    I think his only chance would be to knock Usyk out......

    I think its a bit deeper than that however, it looks like he has AJ's number in terms of boxing skill for sure.

    Did AJ look like he really wanted it ? Did he want to go down into the trenches ? I am not sure. Because if you want to beat Usyk you will have to dig deep.

    Does he need a new manager ????



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,868 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    But there were plenty instances in the fight where it was nip and tuck, and Usyk was not at all clearly superior...

    AJ, with the right attitude, plan, advice and desire to actually go and win, could present a far tougher fight to Usyk



  • Registered Users Posts: 982 ✭✭✭AdrianG08


    Was Whyte ever AJ's mandatory?

    He was always pushed in the WBC rankings, I think it was Wilder he was mandatory for.

    One thing that delays things is this constant rematch buzz, but its completely understandable and has always been the case historically. Problem is AJ is very beatable so his rematches seem to take up alot of time. Usyk will KO him next time i'm sure of it. He knows AJ only has one way of winning, pour it on him for 3-4 rounds and Usyk will have prepared for that. When the gas tank empties, he will be stopped.

    No more than Fury and Wilder, the fights are entertaining sure, but we know the outcome of Fury v Wilder and Joshua v Usyk so rematches don't carry that lustre.

    Fury v Usyk would be fascinating, even the build up to see how Fury would play it. Usyk and his team are gentlemen so the mind games won't have any impact you would imagine. I just think Fury will be too big, he will use his physical advantages to the full extent.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,935 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    AJ has to make it a shoot out, He has to try get Usyk out early but he always seems petrified of gassing out .

    It's going to take big balls from AJ to stick the foot down if he does it & doesn't stop Usyk early then he knows he will be the one stopped late on ,

    The problem with any other game plan is that it is likely to just turn out the exact same fight as last time to me that would be more embarrassing than getting stopped himself ,at least he can say he had a proper go ,



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,868 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Not so sure he needs to take Usyk out. As said, plenty times where they were both boxing very competitively.

    Usyk seemed far more committed throughout to actually pressing home for the win

    AJ needs to use his size, range, height, weight....and to simply give it more welly! Stop fretting about being clipped/hurt.....go and try to win...

    He boxed like he didn't want to, or think he could win.....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,915 ✭✭✭OmegaGene


    dean whyte is a funny bloke on ifltv interviews, his real name is lemar scott and he was a very influential figure in the brixton area and has left that life behind

    himself and shane would be a good scrap but i think thats only banter

    frank warren is saying the fury whyte fight should be in the uk but i am sure fury has two more fights in the states

    The internet isn’t for everyone



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    I agree with you on that. I think a cagey opening 2-3 rounds isn’t the worst thing for aj but he needs to go for home at some point. He fought to not lose last time and as a result just went through the motions.Usyk stung him many times but he’s been hit far harder before. He barely threw a body shot all night. I think it was round 8 or 9 when he bloodied Usyk’s eye, might have been a head involvement but at the end of 10th that fight was in the balance. If aj had come out in 11 like Usyk did then he may well have won. It was a very cheap way for a champion to surrender his titles. He’s defended titles 7 times by my count even if some were a bit soft.

    The big plan to announce himself in USA really backfired. Unlikely to ever fight there again. It’s kinda disappointing not to see those big bouts in MSG any more.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,935 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    He was competitive as in never got blown away but was never going to win that way ,

    AJ's problem is if he comes out to box him again he will find out very quickly things are going the same way & he has never once showed the ability to change mid fight, to lose again in such a passive manner will be embarrassing , Look at Wilder he had the courage and balls to go after Fury & at least went out giving it his absolute all ,

    AJ as you rightly say AJ will have to take one to land one but does he have that courage still



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭Brief_Lives


    Hi everyone, I don't add enough to the conversation here, but I do enjoy reading your thoughts. So, what happens next?

    JOshua gets his belts back, again (finally using his power), Fury fights White?



  • Registered Users Posts: 982 ✭✭✭AdrianG08


    Fury is ripping that Usyk was the one to knock AJ permanently off the hype train. It has cost both of them a fortune.

    Wilder being allowed a rematch and Usyk enforcing his mandatory has cost the 2 guys (and Eddie Hearn and Top Rank) an absolute fortune.

    Fury won't see that purse in 2 fights (Whyte/Wallin and Usyk) so must be a real sickener.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,935 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    AJ v Usyk you'd have to have Usyk as favourite ,

    Probably most pressure AJ has ever been under going in to a fight because in the Ruiz 1 he just got caught but Usyk gave him a boxing lesson , Lose & im not sure what happens,

    Whyte has to get through Wallin first in 3 weeks time , Fury mentioned Whyte as one of his last 4 fights pre Wilder & Warren said today if they have to fight Whyte so be it ,



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,935 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Kevin Barry (Fury was training in his Vegas gym) was saying on the Monday morning after the AJ fight Fury was in foul form in the gym & really deflated as himself and his team truly always believed AJ would be short work & easy money but a career defining sceptical for fans,

    Kevin always good to listen to & always found it very intrusting that he has said for a while now that Fury would wipe the floor with AJ, You've got to remember his own fighter Parker spar's Fury & fought AJ so he has seen both up close.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,868 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    My overall point is that a far more confident and committed AJ boxing to win should not see a surprise if he wins via KO, or points.

    Unless that really was his best, or close to it two weeks ago....if it was, then he has little hope....

    Usyk likely (and deservedly) can start as a favorite. I'd make him a slight to warm favorite.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,935 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    I hear what your saying but AJ went 12 rounds, didn't look hurt until round 12 but still never tried to pull he victory out, He was just happy to let the fight slip away & survive ,

    To me that was the most telling thing, He wasn't willing to go into the flames & get burned to get a victory,

    He can't beat Usyk being that passive ,He has to be more aggressive but also willing to take more shots , I don't think he is wiling or capable to do that anymore,

    Sky & Hearn won't say it but the aul man in silk Pj's comes to mind, his mind set seems to be a better athlete but not a fighter,



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,614 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    Jeez, that was some fight between Fury and Wilder; just on a whole other level than Joshua/Usyk in terms of the venom in the punches being thrown. Fury's putting himself up there in the pantheon with guys like Ali, Louis, Marciano and Johnson.

    It was weird how Joshua didn't try to use his power advantage to make the guy stepping up in weight feel out of his comfort zone. He needed to throw more combinations to put a bit of doubt in Usyk's mind. And surely he should have gone to the body more with Usyk having good head movement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,868 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    I agree on the AJ points

    On Fury, seriously, we need to steady on a bit.....I mean, he has beaten two elites....one was almost 40 and several years past his best when Fury beat him. Nobody is telling me that the 2015 Wlad was near as good as he was 7-8 years prior.

    the other, very few people rate at all highly, other than a KO shot....Wilder is not a great fighter.....never was.

    There are many HW greats with far stellar records. Fury has what, one actual defence of the lineal HW title?

    Not to mention his doping conviction. The Wlad win will always have a suspicion about it.....yes, did not test positive before/during the Wlad time....but!!!! He did test positive for nandrolone coming up to the Wlad rematch



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,935 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Styles make fights

    Usyk just needed to keep touching AJ as often as he could & avoid big shots & he did brilliantly , AJ wanted to do the same which was poor game planning he should have been more aggressive , I heard someone's coach calling AJ & McCracken as having misplaced arrogance in there game plan & it really does sum it up

    Fury tried to run Wilder over & Wilder tried to land that right hand hard, the two lads really did go to war



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,915 ✭✭✭OmegaGene


    i watched his interview and he said monday morning everyone was down in the gym because it was seen as easy work for 100m but thats gone now by the look of the current situation

    The internet isn’t for everyone



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  • Registered Users Posts: 982 ✭✭✭AdrianG08


    The thing is though, the lad has feck all stamina so he is not really a great athlete either, sure he looks like a real specimen but its aesthetic only.

    The notion aswell that he didn't put himself into the fire is mute aswell, maybe he just doesn't have the tools. Usyk was still moving in round 12, unless you are standing still AJ is pretty clueless. Usyk was just simply better in every department. Better ring smarts, movement and punches landed.

    I am really struggling to see what AJ can do better in next fight. He cannot outbox him, maybe he can sit tight for a few rounds and land a hail mary shot I don't know. But with a guy with Usyk's movement, Joshua is always going to be reaching I think, again I think he needs to come in big and put all of his energy into the first 3-4 rounds, maybe play some mind games that he still feels he is the better boxer and allow Usyk to think he is going to try more of the same, and then pour it on him, swing for him Wilder style and risk going out on his shield. I don't see any other way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,537 ✭✭✭✭blade1


    Said I'd throw a bet on this now as I could easily forget they are fighting come nearer the fight.

    Haven't much interest.

    Never thought much of Whyte and I've a feeling he is not able for it anymore.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,868 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    I think Usyk's performance is getting a tad overrated. He won, yes, but AJ was competitive for a fair bit. It should not be a surprise at all if AK could close the gap in fight 2.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,935 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    To be fair to AJ he hit Usyk plenty of times he wasn't finding it impossible to get to him , it was just when he was happy to land one shot & then try to get out,

    He needs to land combinations & when he hurts him don't let him off the hook, The big problem is that means getting hit & expanding more energy ,

    I think he will come in at a similar weight but just be more aggressive be prepared to throw more than one shot when in range, AJ done quite well at stages positioning wise & putting Usyk where he wanted him up but just never let more than one shot go , He needs to let his hands go more but still be smart about setting it up,

    Boxer at all weights tend to get into a position to throw shots & with muscle memory straight away step & circle out of range to safety & you can't play that game with Usyk when he is quicker & more agile than you ( its only the real the real good ones feel safe still in range) , AJ being the bigger stronger man needs to find position fire of 2 or 3 shots & hold his ground & fire again obviously not all the time but more often than fight 1 ., There is a lot more nuance to it but you know what I'm getting at

    Ruiz 1 has made AJ panic in range & stiffen up which sucks the gas out of him , he needs to have a training camp that puts him there often & makes him uncomfortable there as often as possible so it become comfortable ,

    I just don't think he has it in him anymore to pull it off ,



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    Absolutely. After 8/9 rounds they were dead level. Joshua could well have chosen that moment to go for broke or to put the foot down but he didn’t. The last 4 rounds put the real daylight between them so up until then it was very close. The 11th and 12th made the real difference. AJ tried not to lose and Usyk went and won it. I wouldn’t get too bogged down in weight or anything else if he arrives in the same condition next night he could well win it with slightly improved tactics or listening to his corner better. He’s meant to be back in the gym so the hunger would appear to be back. Usyk produced one hell of a performance, can he be as good again? It’s so different to Fury and Wilder. Wilder was at a disadvantage in so many ways whereas Joshua has advantages that he can definately make count. He can also improve on many ways without a complete overhaul being required. He will have many chances during the fight to win or change it as he’s not in with a monster that is likely to ko him inside 3 rounds.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,868 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Pretty much everything I would have said.....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,205 ✭✭✭✭Mantis Toboggan


    Joshua has all the tools to beat Usyk just needs to come with a better game plan and mindset.

    Free Palestine 🇵🇸



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    I think you have thrown away a tenner


    Wallins record is skewed by a performance with Fury, a fight which I'd say Fury didnlittle prep for


    He's got a pretty poor Amateur record, losing more than 1 in every 3 fights.


    His pro record is marked with a fight with Fury and a long drawn out fight with a fighter that Wilder KO'd in 1 and AJ in 7 with Dominic Breazle being his "best" win


    I think he's out of there inside 8. Whyte isn't a world champion but he can bang



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,537 ✭✭✭✭blade1


    Have to lose one sometime I suppose.

    I don't think much of either fighter.

    Maybe Whyte's record being skewed by the Povetkin win.

    A prime Fury would wipe the floor with both.

    Threw a tenner on to try and stir some bit of interest in it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,205 ✭✭✭✭Mantis Toboggan


    That's a good interview with Fury and Bruno on youtube from a few weeks ago.

    Free Palestine 🇵🇸



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