Home charge points (purchase/problems/questions) (See mod note post#1)

vectra · 25-03-2021 12:28PM

Gumbo wrote: »

Public path (Council) or Management Company owned?
Either will require permission from one of the above.

You cannot have a cable across the path, even with a mat. You’ll be liable for injury from trips and falls.

You also can’t get the grant of the cable has to cross the path.

Council footpath.
So I guess that puts paid to looking at either of the above cars then

Thanks.

the_amazing_raisin · 25-03-2021 12:36PM

vectra wrote: »

Council footpath.
So I guess that puts paid to looking at either of the above cars then
Thanks.

It can be done, you'd be installing a pillar on the kerbside to mount the charger and running the cable under the pavement to your house. So more expensive unfortunately

To answer your question about anyone pulling up to charge, you can get chargers with RFID readers so only you can use it. I almost wouldn't bother unless it becomes a problem, the likelihood of someone stealing your electricity is pretty minimal. More likely someone would mistake it for a public charger and a sign saying "Private charge point" seems a simpler and cheaper solution

Gumbo · 25-03-2021 01:06PM

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

It can be done, you'd be installing a pillar on the kerbside to mount the charger and running the cable under the pavement to your house. So more expensive unfortunately

To answer your question about anyone pulling up to charge, you can get chargers with RFID readers so only you can use it. I almost wouldn't bother unless it becomes a problem, the likelihood of someone stealing your electricity is pretty minimal. More likely someone would mistake it for a public charger and a sign saying "Private charge point" seems a simpler and cheaper solution

Needs permission from the council.
Doubt it will happen unfortunately.

If it was private and management company lands, then possible doing it your way.

the_amazing_raisin · 25-03-2021 01:31PM

Gumbo wrote: »

Needs permission from the council.
Doubt it will happen unfortunately.

If it was private and management company lands, then possible doing it your way.

I would have thought the council would be okay with it assuming it was within the planning laws. They really shouldn't be blocking people from going electric given the current focus on curbing emissions

If they refuse you can always start complaining to local councillors, news groups and resident groups, some negative press might get the ball rolling

Gumbo · 25-03-2021 02:35PM

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

I would have thought the council would be okay with it assuming it was within the planning laws. They really shouldn't be blocking people from going electric given the current focus on curbing emissions

If they refuse you can always start complaining to local councillors, news groups and resident groups, some negative press might get the ball rolling

Council won’t allow you to place a private bollard (pole) on public land. Insurances, liability issues.

I agree it needs to be addressed alright.
You also can’t go for planning as you don’t own the land in which you want to place the charging pole.

Kramer · 25-03-2021 07:49PM

Risteard81 wrote: »

A standard install is €450 +VAT......

I thought that was expensive enough, but VW have hit new heights of charging :eek:.

ID. Charger from €494 ID. Charger + Installation from.......€1,329 before SEAI Grant)

So that's €835 installation! That could be as little as 90 minutes, 4 metres of cable & a single hole drilled, if the charge point is near the consumer unit at the front door, as many are. At most, it's up to 15m cable & 2 holes drilled.

Adding a priority switch adds another €240, taking a simple install to almost €1100, charge point excluded :eek:.

https://www.volkswagen.ie/idhub/content/dam/onehub_pkw/importers/ie/models/product-guides/2021/march/210301_RB_ID4MY21.pdf

It's like the California gold rush in the 1800s

.

Felexicon · 25-03-2021 08:04PM

Kramer wrote: »

I thought that was expensive enough, but VW have hit new heights of charging :eek:.

So that's €835 installation! That could be as little as 90 minutes, 4 metres of cable & a single hole drilled, if the charge point is near the consumer unit at the front door, as many are. At most, it's up to 15m cable & 2 holes drilled.

Adding a priority switch adds another €240, taking a simple install to almost €1100, charge point excluded :eek:.

https://www.volkswagen.ie/idhub/content/dam/onehub_pkw/importers/ie/models/product-guides/2021/march/210301_RB_ID4MY21.pdf

It's like the California gold rush in the 1800s .

I'd read that again there mate. Think you've picked it up wrong.

Edit: Nope. I was wrong. Some money if you can get it

asimp11 · 26-03-2021 01:20AM

Why do people think this can be done on the cheap? If you get a pro install done your safe electric electrician must check your earth bonding, test your electrode (earth spike), add a new CU unit in most cases as not to overload your existing installation, add an IP isolator. Also because you're adding a new fixed equipment circuit a periodical inspection and certificate must be done for controlled works. If all this is not done it's an illegal install. You could always go for an external IP rated 13amp socket for less than 100 quid and no paperwork but you won't get a full charge.

Kramer · 26-03-2021 02:26AM

asimp11 wrote: »

Why do people think this can be done on the cheap?

What's your definition of cheap?
A common install could require just €50 odd worth of materials - an RCD/RCBO, 4m of 6 squared cable, an isolator & some clips, take as little as 90 minutes & require one hole to be drilled through one wall.

Plenty of members here have had fully qualified RECs do that, had paperwork issued & received the SEAI grant.

IMO, €835 for such a job, excluding the charge point itself, is just ridiculous & blatant gouging.

Are consumers not entitled to demand value for money these days, without being branded cheapskates? Should those offering reasonable rates be labelled as cowboys, because they only charge €150/hr?

liamog · 26-03-2021 05:38AM

asimp11 wrote: »

Why do people think this can be done on the cheap?

Electric Ireland are installing an EO Mini 2 for €1100, when the charge point is listed as £600 (€700)

If one company can supply and install for €400 and another claims a standard install is €800 (both prices after the charge point equipment) then one of the two is taking advantage. By all means charge the money you can but don't try and justify the prices with crazy markups, or claims that its a 4 hour job for a 'standard' install.

If a company is padding their quotes to justify those times when other remedial work is required they should be up front with those extra costs and not claim its standard.

declan123 · 26-03-2021 09:34AM

Felexicon wrote: »

I'd read that again there mate. Think you've picked it up wrong.

Edit: Nope. I was wrong. Some money if you can get it

Bord Gais is VW's installation partner by the way, they have probably subcontracted this out.

Phil.x · 26-03-2021 11:39AM

Any help with this would be appreciated.
I'm looking to install charge points in my company carpark.
Is there a standard charging connection on all cars/chargers, is there a charger that could accommodate say, a BMW, Hyundai, Tesla, etc, etc, or do each of these manufacturers need a specific type of charger which would result in different chargers across the carpark.

liamog · 26-03-2021 11:54AM

Phil.x wrote: »

Any help with this would be appreciated.
I'm looking to install charge points in my company carpark.
Is there a standard charging connection on all cars/chargers, is there a charger that could accommodate say, a BMW, Hyundai, Tesla, etc, etc, or do each of these manufacturers need a specific type of charger which would result in different chargers across the carpark.

The best thing to do is to install chargers with Type 2 sockets, this is the same socket that is used on all public AC chargers and is compatible with all brands of current EVs

Phil.x · 26-03-2021 12:32PM

liamog wrote: »

The best thing to do is to install chargers with Type 2 sockets, this is the same socket that is used on all public AC chargers and is compatible with all brands of current EVs

Thank you.

asimp11 · 27-03-2021 10:51AM

Kramer wrote: »

What's your definition of cheap?
A common install could require just €50 odd worth of materials - an RCD/RCBO, 4m of 6 squared cable, an isolator & some clips, take as little as 90 minutes & require one hole to be drilled through one wall.

Plenty of members here have had fully qualified RECs do that, had paperwork issued & received the SEAI grant.

IMO, €835 for such a job, excluding the charge point itself, is just ridiculous & blatant gouging.

Are consumers not entitled to demand value for money these days, without being branded cheapskates? Should those offering reasonable rates be labelled as cowboys, because they only charge €150/hr?

It all depends on the state of the existing installation so it is very difficult to give a fixed price quotation. Below is the invoice details of the last one I did about two weeks ago.

Material; sub board, DC RCBO, 16 metres 6.0sq cable, isolator mod, 2 x 63 amp mcb, external isolator, meter tails, 1 length of trunking, labels.
€176
Labour 4 hours €150
PIC cert for controlled works €75
Total including VAT @ 13.5% €455

podge3 · 27-03-2021 03:06PM

asimp11 wrote: »

..... DC RCBO.....

Was that a type A or B?

Decent price for the install, BTW.

Risteard81 · 27-03-2021 04:40PM

podge3 wrote: »

Was that a type A or B?

Decent price for the install, BTW.

It's not that different to what I quoted as normal for installation prices (450 Euro plus VAT) but people on this thread claim that's dear. But what he's posted up is only about 50 Euro in the difference.

liamog · 27-03-2021 04:54PM

Risteard81 wrote: »

It's not that different to what I quoted as normal for installation prices (450 Euro plus VAT) but people on this thread claim that's dear. But what he's posted up is only about 50 Euro in the difference.

€455 versus €835 is a pretty substantial difference, the installation cost from VW@835 is without taking into detail any of the particulars of a given house.

Risteard81 · 27-03-2021 05:29PM

liamog wrote: »

€455 versus €835 is a pretty substantial difference, the installation cost from VW@835 is without taking into detail any of the particulars of a given house.

I didn't refer to VW - as you well know.

It's important not to be disingenuous.

Gumbo · 27-03-2021 05:59PM

asimp11 wrote: »

It all depends on the state of the existing installation so it is very difficult to give a fixed price quotation. Below is the invoice details of the last one I did about two weeks ago.

Material; sub board, DC RCBO, 16 metres 6.0sq cable, isolator mod, 2 x 63 amp mcb, external isolator, meter tails, 1 length of trunking, labels.
€176
Labour 4 hours €150
PIC cert for controlled works €75
Total including VAT @ 13.5% €455

Nothing wrong with that pricing. Very fair to be honest.

Risteard81 · 27-03-2021 06:04PM

Gumbo wrote: »

Nothing wrong with that pricing. Very fair to be honest.

It's very similar to what I quoted here as standard, yet somehow you don't consider that reasonable. There's only 50 Euro difference in these.

liamog · 27-03-2021 06:31PM

Risteard81 wrote: »

I didn't refer to VW - as you well know.

This weeks particular line of complaints re over pricing was triggered by Kramer calling out VW and their €835 installation charge, followed by asimp11 asking why we should expect it to be cheaper.

As was shown in the shared costs, an org giving showing an installation charge of €835 is excessive, and is substantially higher than the cost's asimp11 provided.

liamog · 27-03-2021 06:58PM

asimp11 wrote: »

Material; sub board, DC RCBO, 16 metres 6.0sq cable, isolator mod, 2 x 63 amp mcb, external isolator, meter tails, 1 length of trunking, labels.
€176
Labour 4 hours €150
PIC cert for controlled works €75
Total including VAT @ 13.5% €455

I think a big cause of disagreement on the thread is down to what we deem a standard install. In my experience of a pretty modern house (2003) where the consumer unit is located near the front door and the charge point is being installed at the front of the property, much less work is required. For instance our install only required a new circuit between the charge point and the consumer unit, though we did have to pay more for a priority switch to be installed.

We've already cleared up the RCD A vs B requirement (based on whether or not the charge point has it's own DC fault monitoring) which seemed to have a big impact on installation costs.

I appreciate it's almost impossible to come up with a generic figure, and every site will be different.

the_amazing_raisin · 27-03-2021 11:18PM

I think the main issue with these "standard" installation costs is that installers budget for a certain level of complexity and will charge for anything over that, which is fair, but won't discount if it's a simpler job

If that's the case then what's the point in giving a standard package? Why not just give an indicative price based on a certain job spec and let people figure it out from there

Risteard81 · 27-03-2021 11:20PM

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

I think the main issue with these "standard" installation costs is that installers budget for a certain level of complexity and will charge for anything over that, which is fair, but won't discount if it's a simpler job

If that's the case then what's the point in giving a standard package? Why not just give an indicative price based on a certain job spec and let people figure it out from there

We win on some, and lose on others. It's the Electrical Contractor's risk. We're here to make money. I certainly don't apologise for that.

I have an extremely high level of skills and knowledge, and it is my right and my duty to myself to charge for that. I refuse to be cheap. We state on our website that we are not cheap, and that good electrical installation is not cheap and that cheap electrical installation invariably isn't good.

We vow to be reassuringly expensive.

Gumbo · 27-03-2021 11:26PM

Risteard81 wrote: »

We win on some, and lose on others. It's the Electrical Contractor's risk. We're here to make money. I certainly don't apologise for that.

I have an extremely high level of skills and knowledge, and it is my right and my duty to myself to charge for that. I refuse to be cheap. We state on our website that we are not cheap, and that good electrical installation is not cheap and that cheap electrical installation invariably isn't good.

We vow to be reassuringly expensive.

I can respect that...if I’m being honest.

Risteard81 · 27-03-2021 11:27PM

Gumbo wrote: »

I can respect that...if I’m being honest.

Appreciated.

Gumbo · 27-03-2021 11:30PM

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

I think the main issue with these "standard" installation costs is that installers budget for a certain level of complexity and will charge for anything over that, which is fair, but won't discount if it's a simpler job

If that's the case then what's the point in giving a standard package? Why not just give an indicative price based on a certain job spec and let people figure it out from there

I think a general price can be misleading to the consumer.
You absolutely need to see the site in person.

When I’m quoting for a job, I tell them a range. And the range depends on site criteria such as size, proposals etc as it has a direct impact on fixed costs.

For example, a bigger site requires more drawings. More drawings is more cost, particularly when the planning department want 6 copies of every drawing. Then the bigger the proposal, the bigger the newspaper ad, which in turn means the ad is more expensive.

I try to give a range and the max will depend on the final fixed costs on the week of lodgement. Gives them the worse case scenario, but also the little,bit of hope that it might be a bit cheaper.

Kramer · 28-03-2021 12:14AM

Risteard81 wrote: »

We vow to be reassuringly expensive.

That's catchy & I'll admit, quite a unique USP.

There's nothing wrong with making money. I like money :pac:.
Ultimately, there is also room for less expensive, but identically qualified & registered electricians. The market & competition will decide if one electrician can command higher fees over another.

IMO the €600 grant has emboldened many electricians to expect far more than they would, from non grant-aided electrical work. When the grant goes, as it will, quite likely in the not too distant future, well............it may be harder to demand such premiums.

I've recommended the electrician who installed my EVSE to quite a few new EV owners & speaking to him recently, he thanked me, saying he had done 4 for people who I referred.
I referred people to him because he was professional, courteous & reasonable but doubt I would have if he had been "reassuringly expensive" :pac:.

Risteard81 · 28-03-2021 12:19AM

Kramer wrote: »

That's catchy & I'll admit, quite a unique USP.

There's nothing wrong with making money. I like money :pac:.
Ultimately, there is also room for less expensive, but identically qualified & registered electricians. The market & competition will decide if one electrician can command higher fees over another.

IMO the €600 grant has emboldened many electricians to expect far more than they would, from non grant-aided electrical work. When the grant goes, as it will, quite likely in the not too distant future, well............it may be harder to demand such premiums.

I've recommended the electrician who installed my EVSE to quite a few new EV owners & speaking to him recently, he thanked me, saying he had done 4 for people who I referred.
I referred people to him because he was professional, courteous & reasonable but doubt I would have if he had been "reassuringly expensive" :pac:.

Don't worry - we have months and months of work booked up.

Home charge points (purchase/problems/questions) (See mod note post#1)

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