Parking and traffic in Phoenix Park

beauf · 23-03-2021 10:06PM

The worse congestion and abuse was on fine days at weekends by people using the park. Ban them all.

beauf · 23-03-2021 10:10PM

Wilbury Twist wrote: »

..... The only exception where cars should be permitted in the Phoenix Park in my view is for people who have existing disability permits. ...

All those people working in the park, hospitals, nursing homes, business's, cafes, Ambassadors, Presidents, Garda, the can all walk from the Dart. Do them good.

beauf · 23-03-2021 10:16PM

Weepsie wrote: »

It depends. Is the plan using Farmleigh as part of those 1300 or not. Farmleigh has 4-500 spaces while the rest of the park has about 700 or ...

Since there are external entrances to Farmleigh and there's even a park gate at the current entrance to Farmleigh that they keep closed. They prefer to keep them all closed and run all the traffic through the park. So theres obviously a problem with the external gates. So blocking cars from going through park means the only way to Farmleigh would be on foot.

Less crowded on busy days. That would make it much nicer as well. So win win. Same with the Zoo.

ligerdub · 23-03-2021 10:20PM

Weepsie wrote: »

We need to reduce car journeys. We already know that a massive amount of car journeys are less than a couple of km and absolutely needless. The unwillingness on so many to even try is just brutal.

Do we? I missed that one.

In any event what we really need is more carrot and less stick. I think most people would be more than happy to shelve the car if there was a viable reliable and cost-effective alternative to driving (irrespective of destination). I know I would. I don't drive to the park myself as I'm quite local, so I'm not speaking out of selfish interest. I speak out of knowing the value it brings to my lifestyle and wish others could have the same level of access as me.

All very well to say that Blackhorse avenue is well serviced by bus. That's great.......for a very small element of people from where buses that serve that area leave from. That's a complete non-argument in my opinion. You'd also have to factor in that buses are stop start. Unless you plan on staying there for hours there's no point in taking a stop-start method to get there.

Let's stop pretending that the park actually has good public transport access, it doesn't. That's probably why so many people drive through it. It's not diabolical but it's not exactly convenient.

I'd love to see a properly serviced public transport facility throughout the county. It would be satisfactory for the green obsessed, for those seeking not to spend their lives in traffic, for the convenience of not having to remember where you parked....the list goes on. It's not there though, and I guarantee any shuttle plan would be another disaster.

I think the greatest indication of the government (or council....whatever) real approach to this was shown last summer. At a time when people were already demoralised and in need of a bit of recreation with so little choice available........rather than make it easy for people, they decided to take a deliberately nasty and inconvenient tactic by creating huge bottlenecks in the park. It led to the inevitable enormous tailbacks and viral videos of traffic at a standstill in the park. That was a deliberate method to annoy those people and I found it particularly egregious and I felt bad for them.

Let's bin the stick, bring the carrot. Until then, put it back to the old way and stop this nonsense proposal.

stabaak · 23-03-2021 10:21PM

Weepsie wrote: »

No, just that your assertion about lycra clad warriors is absolute nonsense because that's all it is

No I don’t think it is to be fair.

ligerdub · 23-03-2021 10:22PM

liamog wrote: »

In all reality, what harm was done by commuters park and biking in Phoenix Park Monday to Friday?

None. It's a complete non-issue.

Hurrache · 23-03-2021 10:31PM

Wilbury Twist wrote: »

It probably won't be a popular view but if you live in Dublin there is no excuse for driving a privately owned car to the Phoenix Park. The Phoenix Park Navan Road/Halfway House entrance is very well served by buses 38,39,70 are all very frequent and with Bus Connects will be even more so.

There is also the Dart at Castleknock and Navan Road Parkway, all a short walk to the Park from there. The only exception where cars should be permitted in the Phoenix Park in my view is for people who have existing disability permits.

People don't expect to be able to drive up and park at the entrance of Croke Park or the Aviva stadium, the Phoenix Park should be no different.

Large parts of west Dublin, closest to the park, are not served directly by bus to the park. So if your heading there with your kids, it's a short and easy drive away.

Hurrache · 23-03-2021 10:34PM

liamog wrote: »

In all reality, what harm was done by commuters park and biking in Phoenix Park Monday to Friday?

ligerdub wrote: »

None. It's a complete non-issue.

With rush hour traffic, and people coming and going using it as a commuter carpark, the park was basically unusable for anything else for a few hours every weekday evening.

beauf · 23-03-2021 10:39PM

Hurrache wrote: »

Large parts of west Dublin, closest to the park, are not served directly by bus to the park. So if your heading there with your kids, it's a short and easy drive away.

Well it shouldn't be. It's should be an hour round trip in public transport. Why would you want it any other way.

stabaak · 23-03-2021 10:39PM

Weepsie wrote: »

It depends. Is the plan using Farmleigh as part of those 1300 or not. Farmleigh has 4-500 spaces while the rest of the park has about 700 or so designated spaces in the existing car parks. Adding another 600 spaces is more than enough.

From Mon-Friday chesterfield avenue was abused as a park and ride facility, and it got worse when the Luas arrived. Some park and cycle, which again the park shouldn't ever be for.

We need to reduce car journeys. We already know that a massive amount of car journeys are less than a couple of km and absolutely needless. The unwillingness on so many to even try is just brutal.

Is int great that we live in a country where citizens have a right to choose what mode of transport they use to commute be by bike, car, bus , scooter etc
Ur anti motorist agenda and lack of acceptance of how other people (mainly motorists) choose how they commute shines through very clearly.

stabaak · 23-03-2021 10:43PM

Hurrache wrote: »

With rush hour traffic, and people coming and going using it as a commuter carpark, the park was basically unusable for anything else for a few hours every weekday evening.

Just out of curiosity what did the cars parked in the hard shoulder on chesterfield avenue make it unusable? What where / are u looking to do in the hard shoulder or main road

Larbre34 · 23-03-2021 10:48PM

Hurrache wrote: »

With rush hour traffic, and people coming and going using it as a commuter carpark, the park was basically unusable for anything else for a few hours every weekday evening.

Patent nonsense.

beauf · 23-03-2021 10:51PM

Hurrache wrote: »

With rush hour traffic, and people coming and going using it as a commuter carpark, the park was basically unusable for anything else for a few hours every weekday evening.

If it was unusable, all that traffic wouldn't use it...

I've commuted through the park for years. Much of it on a bicycle. The majority of the time it was mostly empty. But it's hardly surprisingly it backs up. Most of the gates are single lane. They don't limit the number of cars that can enter it. Gallon into a pint pot.

Hurrache · 23-03-2021 10:51PM

stabaak wrote: »

Just out of curiosity what did the cars parked in the hard shoulder on chesterfield avenue make it unusable? What where / are u looking to do in the hard shoulder or main road

Why do you think I wanted to do anything on the main road or hard shoulder?
It's a simple matter of volume and congestion.

Larbre34 wrote: »

Patent nonsense.

No need to patent it, people won't be rushing to share your views.

beauf wrote: »

all that traffic wouldn't use it...

Now things are starting to click... You literally made the point I made. It's fine throughout the day, but sensible people avoiding driving to visit it at rush hour because of all that traffic using it

beauf · 23-03-2021 11:18PM

Hurrache wrote: »

....Now things are starting to click... You literally made the point I made. It's fine throughout the day, but sensible people avoiding driving to visit it at rush hour because of all that traffic using it

Anyone cycling knows that exactly when the cycle paths are full of walkers and runners. A lot of people stop on their way home or finish work and head to park.

This idea that people using the park don't cause a lot of the congestion is a fiction. Look at the weekends when it's swamped.

blanch152 · 23-03-2021 11:20PM

Weepsie wrote: »

I'm not anti motorist, and I at times need to use our car like anyone else does, but we've long gone past the point of capacity on our roads. There are too many single occupancy, private vehicles taking up public space. It shouldn't take someone over an hour to get from city centre to say Blanchardstown but in normal times this is not uncommon due to the volumes of traffic.

A massive percentage of our commute journeys are so short that they are walkable for most people. An awful lot more are easily doable by bike being not much further. Public transport for sure needs to improve, but something has shifted in so many in this country, in that people think we are L.A. or something and a car is essential to get anywhere, when in reality it's not, particularly in Dublin.

Rural and commuters from further afield have fewer options.

There is a net benefit to us all if there is a reduction in such use.

The park is a heritage site, a nature reserve and a public amenity. If people want to use it to store their private property, they should pay for it.

If it is a public amenity, people need to get there. Take the Bois du Bologne in Paris, it has far more cars parking in it than the Phoenix Park. Large swathes of the Phoenix Park are barely used by the public and the plan should be focussing on increasing the public numbers and providing an outlet for people.

beauf · 23-03-2021 11:32PM

blanch152 wrote: »

If it is a public amenity, people need to get there. Take the Bois du Bologne in Paris, it has far more cars parking in it than the Phoenix Park. Large swathes of the Phoenix Park are barely used by the public and the plan should be focussing on increasing the public numbers and providing an outlet for people.

There are too many cars no doubt. But it's poorly planned. Most parks have parking at the entrance so you don't have to drive though it. The OPW does this backwards.

It's also a main route. If you want to remove a main route, replace it with improvements on other routes and forms of transport. But there is very little going to happen on those routes for decades. The reality is traffic all over Dublin is going to get a lot worse. Not better.

24-03-2021 12:24AM

beauf wrote: »

There are too many cars no doubt. But it's poorly planned. Most parks have parking at the entrance so you don't have to drive though it. The OPW does this backwards.

It's also a main route. If you want to remove a main route, replace it with improvements on other routes and forms of transport. But there is very little going to happen on those routes for decades. The reality is traffic all over Dublin is going to get a lot worse. Not better.

Chesterfield Avenue is a main route. Don’t think anyone would argue with that. The rest of the park isn’t, and should be planned accordingly to allow access to car parks but to block circular through routes

beauf · 24-03-2021 12:40AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Chesterfield Avenue is a main route. Don’t think anyone would argue with that. The rest of the park isn’t, and should be planned accordingly to allow access to car parks but to block circular through routes

Well the OPW close Chesterfield Avenue in the summer at thw weekends and push that traffic down the quieter parts of the park. So really the OPW seems to think they are interchangeable.

24-03-2021 07:14AM

beauf wrote: »

All those people working in the park, hospitals, nursing homes, business's, cafes, Ambassadors, Presidents, Garda, the can all walk from the Dart. Do them good.

Those people don't park in the car parks or along chesterfield ave

24-03-2021 07:20AM

beauf wrote: »

There are too many cars no doubt. But it's poorly planned. Most parks have parking at the entrance so you don't have to drive though it. The OPW does this backwards.

It's also a main route. If you want to remove a main route, replace it with improvements on other routes and forms of transport. But there is very little going to happen on those routes for decades. The reality is traffic all over Dublin is going to get a lot worse. Not better.

Putting car parks at entrance gates only encourages more commuters to use the park.
More park and ride means less parking for people using the park itself.
As it is lazy drivers drop their car into grass verges while car parks are still empty. Force drivers into car parks, and don't have any parking near the gates.

stabaak · 24-03-2021 09:03AM

Hurrache wrote: »

Why do you think I wanted to do anything on the main road or hard shoulder?
It's a simple matter of volume and congestion.

No need to patent it, people won't be rushing to share your views.

Now things are starting to click... You literally made the point I made. It's fine throughout the day, but sensible people avoiding driving to visit it at rush hour because of all that traffic using it

You stated that the park was unusable due to people using it as a car park. People parked in the hard shoulder of the main or driving on the main road itself made it unusable for u how?
Where people parking in the cycle lanes, the footpath, the football pitches, the polo ground, the cricket grounds, the many walking trails or the many open green spaces?

Hurrache · 24-03-2021 09:06AM

beauf wrote: »

This idea that people using the park don't cause a lot of the congestion is a fiction. Look at the weekends when it's swamped.

But I never said that.

stabaak wrote: »

You stated that the park was unusable due to people using it as a car park.

And I didn't say that either.

Hurrache wrote: »

With rush hour traffic, and people coming and going using it as a commuter carpark, the park was basically unusable for anything else for a few hours every weekday evening.

stabaak · 24-03-2021 09:22AM

Weepsie wrote: »

I'm not anti motorist, and I at times need to use our car like anyone else does, but we've long gone past the point of capacity on our roads. There are too many single occupancy, private vehicles taking up public space. It shouldn't take someone over an hour to get from city centre to say Blanchardstown but in normal times this is not uncommon due to the volumes of traffic.

A massive percentage of our commute journeys are so short that they are walkable for most people. An awful lot more are easily doable by bike being not much further. Public transport for sure needs to improve, but something has shifted in so many in this country, in that people think we are L.A. or something and a car is essential to get anywhere, when in reality it's not, particularly in Dublin.

Rural and commuters from further afield have fewer options.

There is a net benefit to us all if there is a reduction in such use.

The park is a heritage site, a nature reserve and a public amenity. If people want to use it to store their private property, they should pay for it.

We are in agreement that the public transport system is not suitable for a modern busy ( pre pandemic) capital city and let’s be honest we are generations away from having a public transport system that is a viable alternative to people using their cars, but it again it comes dwn to choice, just because you or me decide to use a bus, train or bike dosnt mean that everybody wants to or should do it.some people dnt like the hassle associated with public transport and prefer to be in there own space.
if u hop on a 37 at Clonsilla/ Diswellstown road it takes the guts of hour to get to quays and longer on the 39.
If coming through the park in to get to town u are also dealing with traffic coming from the Hueston side of things so naturally with the lay out of the quays it’s going to cause gridlock.
Again we could argue that it comes dwn to planning or lack of. Dublin 15 has exploded in population over last 15 years or so , houses apartments going up( and still going up) on every bit of green space but with zero increase in infrastructure / viable public transport alternatives to the car that will get people to their desired destination in reasonable time to cope. So naturally the navan road/ park are going to have traffic problems.

beauf · 24-03-2021 09:45AM

bubblypop wrote: »

Those people don't park in the car parks or along chesterfield ave

bubblypop wrote: »

Putting car parks at entrance gates only encourages more commuters to use the park.
More park and ride means less parking for people using the park itself.
As it is lazy drivers drop their car into grass verges while car parks are still empty. Force drivers into car parks, and don't have any parking near the gates.

There's been no parking on chesterfield ave for a year, and people are still complaining about the traffic and parking usually at the weekends.

..and yet you still going on about commuters and chesterfield ave.

Change the record.

Seth Brundle · 24-03-2021 10:04AM

stabaak wrote: »

We are in agreement that the public transport system is not suitable for a modern busy ( pre pandemic) capital city and let’s be honest we are generations away from having a public transport system that is a viable alternative to people using their cars, but it again it comes dwn to choice, just because you or me decide to use a bus, train or bike dosnt mean that everybody wants to or should do it.some people dnt like the hassle associated with public transport and prefer to be in there own space.

We're not "generations away from having a public transport system that is a viable alternative to people using their cars". If BusConnects was given a chance, it would show that it is more practical to use sustainable transport than using a car.

As for people having a choice, it's not that simple. NO2 levels are far too high within the capital, exceeding EU max levels. Air pollution has been shown to have a detriment effect on peoples health leading to premature deaths (the EPA reckons 1300 premature deaths per year from air pollution).
Nonetheless, I'm not aware of any plan to force you out of your car.

stabaak wrote: »

if u hop on a 37 at Clonsilla/ Diswellstown road it takes the guts of hour to get to quays and longer on the 39.

Why? Anything to do with traffic?

stabaak wrote: »

If coming through the park in to get to town u are also dealing with traffic coming from the Hueston side of things so naturally with the lay out of the quays it’s going to cause gridlock.

Surely if we encourage more people to use sustainable transport, these numbers would similarly decrease.
Anyhow, to correct your point, the congestion is not due to the layout on the quays. It is due to the volume of people who choose to drive cars there.

stabaak wrote: »

Again we could argue that it comes dwn to planning or lack of. Dublin 15 has exploded in population over last 15 years or so , houses apartments going up( and still going up) on every bit of green space but with zero increase in infrastructure / viable public transport alternatives to the car that will get people to their desired destination in reasonable time to cope. So naturally the navan road/ park are going to have traffic problems.

You're contradicting yourself here. You think people should be able to drive when they want to yet you are critical for the lack of public transport alternatives. They are there FWIW and the infrastructure is continually improving!

stabaak · 24-03-2021 10:43AM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

We're not "generations away from having a public transport system that is a viable alternative to people using their cars". If BusConnects was given a chance, it would show that it is more practical to use sustainable transport than using a car.

As for people having a choice, it's not that simple. NO2 levels are far too high within the capital, exceeding EU max levels. Air pollution has been shown to have a detriment effect on peoples health leading to premature deaths (the EPA reckons 1300 premature deaths per year from air pollution).
Nonetheless, I'm not aware of any plan to force you out of your car.

Why? Anything to do with traffic?

Surely if we encourage more people to use sustainable transport, these numbers would similarly decrease.
Anyhow, to correct your point, the congestion is not due to the layout on the quays. It is due to the volume of people who choose to drive cars there.

You're contradicting yourself here. You think people should be able to drive when they want to yet you are critical for the lack of public transport alternatives. They are there FWIW and the infrastructure is continually improving!

I’m not contradicting myself at all ,people should have a CHOICE of what mode of transport they use it’s not up to u to dictate how they move around or demonise/ car shame people.
And just to correct u of course the congestion is due to lay out of quays. . Two lanes going into one is always going to have a knock on effect.
Glad there is no plane to force me out of my car so il CHOOSE to use my old 3 litre diesel car as my mode of transport when it suits me.

Hurrache · 24-03-2021 10:46AM

Congestion from this side of the city has been an issue decades before the change to the layout of the quays.

liamog · 24-03-2021 10:50AM

Hurrache wrote: »

With rush hour traffic, and people coming and going using it as a commuter carpark, the park was basically unusable for anything else for a few hours every weekday evening.

This certainly does not match my experience of Phoenix Park, by far the biggest issue with traffic around the park near rush hour is caused by the sheer amount of cars on roads commuting around and through it, the people who chose to park in the park barely add to the problem at all.

As to making the park unusable, fair enough if your plans were to have a picnic on the hard shoulder of chesterfield avenue, but if you intend to venture every slightly further into the many acres of parkland then it's a non issue.

stabaak · 24-03-2021 10:51AM

stabaak wrote: »

I’m not contradicting myself at all ,people should have a CHOICE of what mode of transport they use it’s not up to u to dictate how they move around or demonise/ car shame people.
And just to correct u of course the congestion is due to lay out of quays. . Two lanes going into one is always going to have a knock on effect.
Glad there is no plane to force me out of my car so il CHOOSE to use my old 3 litre diesel car as my mode of transport when it suits me.

Il correct myself and add that there was congestion before the new lay out of quays but it certainly got worse when they altered the lanes.

Parking and traffic in Phoenix Park

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