Parking and traffic in Phoenix Park

beauf

beauf wrote: »

All those people working in the park, hospitals, nursing homes, business's, cafes, Ambassadors, Presidents, Garda, the can all walk from the Dart. Do them good.

Those people don't park in the car parks or along chesterfield ave

beauf

beauf wrote: »

There are too many cars no doubt. But it's poorly planned. Most parks have parking at the entrance so you don't have to drive though it. The OPW does this backwards.

It's also a main route. If you want to remove a main route, replace it with improvements on other routes and forms of transport. But there is very little going to happen on those routes for decades. The reality is traffic all over Dublin is going to get a lot worse. Not better.

Putting car parks at entrance gates only encourages more commuters to use the park.
More park and ride means less parking for people using the park itself.
As it is lazy drivers drop their car into grass verges while car parks are still empty. Force drivers into car parks, and don't have any parking near the gates.

stabaak

Hurrache wrote: »

Why do you think I wanted to do anything on the main road or hard shoulder?
It's a simple matter of volume and congestion.


No need to patent it, people won't be rushing to share your views.



Now things are starting to click... You literally made the point I made. It's fine throughout the day, but sensible people avoiding driving to visit it at rush hour because of all that traffic using it

You stated that the park was unusable due to people using it as a car park. People parked in the hard shoulder of the main or driving on the main road itself made it unusable for u how?
Where people parking in the cycle lanes, the footpath, the football pitches, the polo ground, the cricket grounds, the many walking trails or the many open green spaces?

Hurrache

beauf wrote: »

This idea that people using the park don't cause a lot of the congestion is a fiction. Look at the weekends when it's swamped.

But I never said that.

stabaak wrote: »

You stated that the park was unusable due to people using it as a car park.

And I didn't say that either.

Hurrache wrote: »

With rush hour traffic, and people coming and going using it as a commuter carpark, the park was basically unusable for anything else for a few hours every weekday evening.

stabaak

Weepsie wrote: »

I'm not anti motorist, and I at times need to use our car like anyone else does, but we've long gone past the point of capacity on our roads. There are too many single occupancy, private vehicles taking up public space. It shouldn't take someone over an hour to get from city centre to say Blanchardstown but in normal times this is not uncommon due to the volumes of traffic.

A massive percentage of our commute journeys are so short that they are walkable for most people. An awful lot more are easily doable by bike being not much further. Public transport for sure needs to improve, but something has shifted in so many in this country, in that people think we are L.A. or something and a car is essential to get anywhere, when in reality it's not, particularly in Dublin.

Rural and commuters from further afield have fewer options.

There is a net benefit to us all if there is a reduction in such use.

The park is a heritage site, a nature reserve and a public amenity. If people want to use it to store their private property, they should pay for it.

We are in agreement that the public transport system is not suitable for a modern busy ( pre pandemic) capital city and let’s be honest we are generations away from having a public transport system that is a viable alternative to people using their cars, but it again it comes dwn to choice, just because you or me decide to use a bus, train or bike dosnt mean that everybody wants to or should do it.some people dnt like the hassle associated with public transport and prefer to be in there own space.
if u hop on a 37 at Clonsilla/ Diswellstown road it takes the guts of hour to get to quays and longer on the 39.
If coming through the park in to get to town u are also dealing with traffic coming from the Hueston side of things so naturally with the lay out of the quays it’s going to cause gridlock.
Again we could argue that it comes dwn to planning or lack of. Dublin 15 has exploded in population over last 15 years or so , houses apartments going up( and still going up) on every bit of green space but with zero increase in infrastructure / viable public transport alternatives to the car that will get people to their desired destination in reasonable time to cope. So naturally the navan road/ park are going to have traffic problems.

beauf

bubblypop wrote: »

Those people don't park in the car parks or along chesterfield ave

bubblypop wrote: »

Putting car parks at entrance gates only encourages more commuters to use the park.
More park and ride means less parking for people using the park itself.
As it is lazy drivers drop their car into grass verges while car parks are still empty. Force drivers into car parks, and don't have any parking near the gates.

There's been no parking on chesterfield ave for a year, and people are still complaining about the traffic and parking usually at the weekends.

..and yet you still going on about commuters and chesterfield ave.

Change the record.

Seth Brundle

stabaak wrote: »

We are in agreement that the public transport system is not suitable for a modern busy ( pre pandemic) capital city and let’s be honest we are generations away from having a public transport system that is a viable alternative to people using their cars, but it again it comes dwn to choice, just because you or me decide to use a bus, train or bike dosnt mean that everybody wants to or should do it.some people dnt like the hassle associated with public transport and prefer to be in there own space.

We're not "generations away from having a public transport system that is a viable alternative to people using their cars". If BusConnects was given a chance, it would show that it is more practical to use sustainable transport than using a car.

As for people having a choice, it's not that simple. NO2 levels are far too high within the capital, exceeding EU max levels. Air pollution has been shown to have a detriment effect on peoples health leading to premature deaths (the EPA reckons 1300 premature deaths per year from air pollution).
Nonetheless, I'm not aware of any plan to force you out of your car.

stabaak wrote: »

if u hop on a 37 at Clonsilla/ Diswellstown road it takes the guts of hour to get to quays and longer on the 39.

Why? Anything to do with traffic?

stabaak wrote: »

If coming through the park in to get to town u are also dealing with traffic coming from the Hueston side of things so naturally with the lay out of the quays it’s going to cause gridlock.

Surely if we encourage more people to use sustainable transport, these numbers would similarly decrease.
Anyhow, to correct your point, the congestion is not due to the layout on the quays. It is due to the volume of people who choose to drive cars there.

stabaak wrote: »

Again we could argue that it comes dwn to planning or lack of. Dublin 15 has exploded in population over last 15 years or so , houses apartments going up( and still going up) on every bit of green space but with zero increase in infrastructure / viable public transport alternatives to the car that will get people to their desired destination in reasonable time to cope. So naturally the navan road/ park are going to have traffic problems.

You're contradicting yourself here. You think people should be able to drive when they want to yet you are critical for the lack of public transport alternatives. They are there FWIW and the infrastructure is continually improving!

stabaak

Seth Brundle wrote: »

We're not "generations away from having a public transport system that is a viable alternative to people using their cars". If BusConnects was given a chance, it would show that it is more practical to use sustainable transport than using a car.

As for people having a choice, it's not that simple. NO2 levels are far too high within the capital, exceeding EU max levels. Air pollution has been shown to have a detriment effect on peoples health leading to premature deaths (the EPA reckons 1300 premature deaths per year from air pollution).
Nonetheless, I'm not aware of any plan to force you out of your car.


Why? Anything to do with traffic?


Surely if we encourage more people to use sustainable transport, these numbers would similarly decrease.
Anyhow, to correct your point, the congestion is not due to the layout on the quays. It is due to the volume of people who choose to drive cars there.


You're contradicting yourself here. You think people should be able to drive when they want to yet you are critical for the lack of public transport alternatives. They are there FWIW and the infrastructure is continually improving!

I’m not contradicting myself at all ,people should have a CHOICE of what mode of transport they use it’s not up to u to dictate how they move around or demonise/ car shame people.
And just to correct u of course the congestion is due to lay out of quays. . Two lanes going into one is always going to have a knock on effect.
Glad there is no plane to force me out of my car so il CHOOSE to use my old 3 litre diesel car as my mode of transport when it suits me.

Hurrache

Congestion from this side of the city has been an issue decades before the change to the layout of the quays.

liamog

Hurrache wrote: »

With rush hour traffic, and people coming and going using it as a commuter carpark, the park was basically unusable for anything else for a few hours every weekday evening.

This certainly does not match my experience of Phoenix Park, by far the biggest issue with traffic around the park near rush hour is caused by the sheer amount of cars on roads commuting around and through it, the people who chose to park in the park barely add to the problem at all.

As to making the park unusable, fair enough if your plans were to have a picnic on the hard shoulder of chesterfield avenue, but if you intend to venture every slightly further into the many acres of parkland then it's a non issue.

stabaak

stabaak wrote: »

I’m not contradicting myself at all ,people should have a CHOICE of what mode of transport they use it’s not up to u to dictate how they move around or demonise/ car shame people.
And just to correct u of course the congestion is due to lay out of quays. . Two lanes going into one is always going to have a knock on effect.
Glad there is no plane to force me out of my car so il CHOOSE to use my old 3 litre diesel car as my mode of transport when it suits me.

Il correct myself and add that there was congestion before the new lay out of quays but it certainly got worse when they altered the lanes.

Seth Brundle

stabaak wrote: »

I’m not contradicting myself at all ,people should have a CHOICE of what mode of transport they use it’s not up to u to dictate how they move around or demonise/ car shame people.
And just to correct u of course the congestion is due to lay out of quays. . Two lanes going into one is always going to have a knock on effect.
Glad there is no plane to force me out of my car so il CHOOSE to use my old 3 litre diesel car as my mode of transport when it suits me.

You obviously didn't read my post. I didn't dictate to anyone. I even said the following...

Nonetheless, I'm not aware of any plan to force you out of your car

However, whilst it is not about removing someone's choice to use their car, sustainable transport planning will involve prioritisation of efficient forms of transport and de-prioritisation of the inefficient modes which principally include the car. This is happening across the world in all progressive cities.

As for traffic congestion, like I said, it has nothing to do with the layout and all to do with the number of people who choose to drive their cars into the city. For example, at 3am the number of people driving is low so you don't see traffic congestion. It's not rocket science.

beauf

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Y...
As for traffic congestion, like I said, it has nothing to do with the layout and all to do with the number of people who choose to drive their cars into the city. For example, at 3am the number of people driving is low so you don't see traffic congestion. It's not rocket science.

Traffic congestion often also has to do with layout. I don't know abut the quays specifically.

Seth Brundle

stabaak wrote: »

Il correct myself and add that there was congestion before the new lay out of quays but it certainly got worse when they altered the lanes.

You mean when they prioritised busses over cars so that they could transport larger volumes of people into town quickly?
Expect a lot more of that to come by the way (and not just in Dublin)!

beauf

beauf wrote: »

There's been no parking on chesterfield ave for a year, and people are still complaining about the traffic and parking usually at the weekends.

..and yet you still going on about commuters and chesterfield ave.

Change the record.

There is no need for anyone to be complaining about parking for the last 12 months. There is no issue with.parking during covid. None at all. I think I'm as entitled as anyone else in here to have an opinion on non covid times Phoenix park.

I'm not going to 'change the record' when it is an important part of the normal times issues, and you being bad mannered won't stop me.

liamog

bubblypop wrote: »

There is no need for anyone to be complaining about parking for the last 12 months. There is no issue with.parking during covid. None at all. I think I'm as entitled as anyone else in here to have an opinion on non covid times Phoenix park.

There's been huge problems with parking in Phoenix Park since the removal of parking on Chesterfield Avenue, why do you think there are so many people abandoning cars on verges and grassy areas.

If you remove 1200 spaces at a time when there is increased visitor demand due to everything else being closed, it's not surprising that the remaining parking facilities for park users become overwhelmed.

Weepsie

liamog wrote: »

There's been huge problems with parking in Phoenix Park since the removal of parking on Chesterfield Avenue, why do you think there are so many people abandoning cars on verges and grassy areas.

If you remove 1200 spaces at a time when there is increased visitor demand due to everything else being closed, it's not surprising that the remaining parking facilities for park users become overwhelmed.

There was huge problems with parking even when parking on chesterfield avenue was allowed. There were times when it, north road and swathes of the upper glen road were just lined with cars. It wasn't just an occassional thing either.

Weepsie

stabaak wrote: »

if u hop on a 37 at Clonsilla/ Diswellstown road it takes the guts of hour to get to quays and longer on the 39.
If coming through the park in to get to town u are also dealing with traffic coming from the Hueston side of things so naturally with the lay out of the quays it’s going to cause gridlock.

That's 100% due to all of the cars of which most are carrying 1 person, and many are making a journey of less than 10km that is doable for any remotely able bodied adult by bike.

Again the benefits go beyond reducing traffic.

liamog

liamog wrote: »

There's been huge problems with parking in Phoenix Park since the removal of parking on Chesterfield Avenue, why do you think there are so many people abandoning cars on verges and grassy areas.

If you remove 1200 spaces at a time when there is increased visitor demand due to everything else being closed, it's not surprising that the remaining parking facilities for park users become overwhelmed.

Because the drivers are lazy. Drive in, dump the car on the first grass verges they see, even though the car parks are not half full. It's like that any nice weekend.
Stop the parking on the grass and force them into carparks.
There is plenty of room

Hurrache

liamog wrote: »

This certainly does not match my experience of Phoenix Park, by far the biggest issue with traffic around the park near rush hour is caused by the sheer amount of cars on roads commuting around and through it, the people who chose to park in the park barely add to the problem at all.

As to making the park unusable, fair enough if your plans were to have a picnic on the hard shoulder of chesterfield avenue, but if you intend to venture every slightly further into the many acres of parkland then it's a non issue.

The people who use the park as a carpark add to the the congestion at rush hour because they all hop into their cars and join and extend the queues of traffic.

I used to have two scheduled midweek activities a week in the park and I'd always organise work so I can cycle in after work rather than drop by in the car after meetings etc. It was, and still is, ridiculous for a park but expected for rush hours on a main route in and out of the city.

When I changed jobs I'd regularly finish a bit earlier and wouldn't bother driving to the park inside of the 2 hour rush 'hour' as it was just too much hassle.

That's what I mean by being unusable during rush hour. All is fine if you're already there, but a totally different story if you want to go there during that period to the point you'll find an alternative, St Catherines Park being one of them.

liamog

Hurrache wrote: »

The people who use the park as a carpark add to the the congestion at rush hour because they all hop into their cars and join and extend the queues of traffic.

I used to have two scheduled midweek activities a week in the park and I'd always organise work so I can cycle in after work rather than drop by in the car after meetings etc. It was, and still is, ridiculous for a park but expected for rush hours on a main route in and out of the city.

Unfortunately Phoenix Park is now, and will remain a main route out of the city towards Dublin 15. It would be interesting to see traffic statistics between 5 and 7 on Chesterfield Avenue, I suspect it's an order of magnitude higher than any parking commuters.

beauf

bubblypop wrote: »

There is no need for anyone to be complaining about parking for the last 12 months. There is no issue with.parking during covid.....

..and yet people still are...including yourself...

bubblypop wrote: »

Because the drivers are lazy. Drive in, dump the car on the first grass verges they see, even though the car parks are not half full. It's like that any nice weekend.
Stop the parking on the grass and force them into carparks.
There is plenty of room

beauf

beauf wrote: »

..and yet people still are...including yourself...

There is plenty of parking. Lazy drivers won't drive to it.

Hurrache

liamog wrote: »

It would be interesting to see traffic statistics between 5 and 7 on Chesterfield Avenue, I suspect it's an order of magnitude higher than any parking commuters.

But the point it that parking commuters are in the same category as those who use it to drive through, they contribute to it and increase the volume during the same period.

liamog

So we're now at the point of people wanting less driving through the park, and complaining that people aren't driving to car parks, and that OPW shouldn't build car parks near the gates because people will use them to park their cars.

Does that about sum up the posistion?

liamog

Hurrache wrote: »

But the point it that parking commuters are in the same category as those who use it to drive through, they contribute to it and increase the volume during the same period.

Yes but if 20,000 car's drive through the park in rush hour, and 600 of them were commuters who parked in the park, then the issue is not the 600 commuters who were parked in the park.

beauf

Hurrache wrote: »

But the point it that parking commuters are in the same category as those who use it to drive through, they contribute to it and increase the volume during the same period.

Still banging on about commuters ...

All traffic contributes to it, even those going for a walk or whatever. Its not just commuters. The only solution to that is ban all cars. So your only issue there is there enough public support for that vs the public support for keeping car access.

If you ban all cars you throttle the existing route in and out of D15 (and its really a wider catchment than that, its fed from meath, kildare etc. ) and into by about 40%. Plus whatever cross traffic uses it, which is on a similar volume.

That's the political pressure you have to overturn.

liamog

liamog wrote: »

So we're now at the point of people wanting less driving through the park, and complaining that people aren't driving to car parks, and that OPW shouldn't build car parks near the gates because people will use them to park their cars.

Does that about sum up the posistion?

Its very simple, use the park and its parking to the advantage of people going to visit the park itself.
Through journeys are secondary to persons using the park facilities.

liamog

bubblypop wrote: »

Its very simple, use the park and its parking to the advantage of people going to visit the park itself.
Through journeys are secondary to persons using the park facilities.

Ok so then you do support the OPW building parking facilities near the park gates so people who want to use the park can park there?

Hurrache

beauf wrote: »

Still banging on about commuters ...

[sigh] No, no I'm not. I'm clarifying the point I made and haven't made any additional ones about commuters.

Now if you didn't get a rush of blood to your head in order to make a smart comment, you'd see that.