Covid 19 Part XXVII- 62,002 ROI (1,915 deaths) 39,609 NI (724 deaths) (02/11) Read OP

Strumms · 24-10-2020 2:07am

DubInMeath wrote: »

People working get a medical card, though FG have made that even more difficult, and last time I checked any one working could get a under 6 gp card.
People on reasonable good money get state funded child care and HAP isn't given out with the dole though landlords seem to have a love hate relationship with it.

FG *spit* took away both my parents medical cards, both retired, both with medical conditions at the time... My Dad a heart problem, arthritis, my mother skin cancer and worsening arthritis... thankfully the cancer was caught and treated early.

FG’s relationship with most issues in this country is toxic. Toxic fûcking neanderthal people and party.

Minnie Snuggles · 24-10-2020 2:13am

I really hope I'm wrong, but there is a possibility that in 10 years time, the people who are complaining about a 6 week lockdown now, will be saying that it was not long enough, we simply do not know what the long term effects will be. Do we know how many are suffering from Long Covid?

I have seen a lot of posts saying "just protect the vulnerable, and let the rest of us get on with living our lives" - we do not know who the "vulnerable" are.

Wolf359f · 24-10-2020 2:16am

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Is anyone thinking of using the daily new case numbers for playing the Lotto with? Some weird combinations during the week 1066 (Battle Of Hastings), today we had 777 ( a fine aeroplane).

I've always wanted to apply Benford's law to new case numbers and see how legit some countries are at reporting. It feels like we've had a very high number of even numbers reported, but could be (more than likely) in my mind.

On a side point, anyone feel jealous at Nenagh & Lismore?
On the LEA map both are less than 5/100k population when the national average is 300+
Guess they have no schools!

Wolf359f · 24-10-2020 2:23am

Minnie Snuggles wrote: »

I really hope I'm wrong, but there is a possibility that in 10 years time, the people who are complaining about a 6 week lockdown now, will be saying that it was not long enough, we simply do not know what the long term effects will be. Do we know how many are suffering from Long Covid?

I have seen a lot of posts saying "just protect the vulnerable, and let the rest of us get on with living our lives" - we do not know who the "vulnerable" are.

I totally agree. Long covid can and could be a major health issue in the future. But one would hope, due to the millions infected there would be worldwide collaboration for treatment (of course there's plenty of diseases with millions suffering from that gets ignored)

The very same people would also be giving out about a family member having operations/diagnosis delayed because the hospitals were filled with 'let it rip' casualties.

The sooner people realize this virus effects everyone in many ways the better.
And spare a though to people in nursing homes who can't have visitors, it wouldn't even want to image that.
But of course others would be giving out that they can't visit a friend on a ward in a hospital whose only in there for a week.

Tellyium · 24-10-2020 2:28am

podgeandrodge wrote: »

I think that we are inevitably moving towards population acceptance of living with covid and vulnerable looking after themselves. I believe that the general population at large will agree to deaths of those in 80's and accept ICU deaths as a necessary evil, to allow majority of country/economy survive.

Horrible but true. By the way, my elderly mother would agree.

I’m going to use your post as an example of an attitude that, quite frankly, really worries me.
I really hope, if or when I get to my eighties, that I’m not written of and considered dispensable. Your elderly mother agreeing doesn’t make it right. My elderly mother would like to spend as long as she can enjoying her grandchildren.
The attitude that accepts covid deaths “cos they’re old or have something wrong with them’ makes me worry about our society at a very fundamental level.
To labour the point: let’s say there’s a guy in his 30s with a few pounds on (underlying condition, check), borderline high blood pressure (underlying condition, check), ex smoker cos he was a bit daft in his 20s (underlying condition, check) - three kids under 7. Is he an acceptable casualty?
We could easily open up society and business if we could trust people to do the right thing.
We can live with covid and keep everyone safe while living life to a relatively comfortable level, but there’s a sense of entitlement from some that won’t accept any impact on their 2019 lives. And like it or not, that is why we are struggling to contain it.

Minnie Snuggles · 24-10-2020 2:39am

Wolf359f wrote: »

I totally agree. Long covid can and could be a major health issue in the future. But one would hope, due to the millions infected there would be worldwide collaboration for treatment (of course there's plenty of diseases with millions suffering from that gets ignored)

The very same people would also be giving out about a family member having operations/diagnosis delayed because the hospitals were filled with 'let it rip' casualties.

The sooner people realize this virus effects everyone in many ways the better.
And spare a though to people in nursing homes who can't have visitors, it wouldn't even want to image that.
But of course others would be giving out that they can't visit a friend on a ward in a hospital whose only in there for a week.

Thanks for your reply, I understand and sympathize with anyone on medical/compassionate grounds. I can never begin to imagine the stress these people are under right now.

It's the people who just want to have their weekends back, that want to "demonstrate" their right not to wear a mask, that annoy me.

Wolf359f · 24-10-2020 2:40am

Tellyium wrote: »

I’m going to use your post as an example of an attitude that, quite frankly, really worries me.
I really hope, if or when I get to my eighties, that I’m not written of and considered dispensable. Your elderly mother agreeing doesn’t make it right. My elderly mother would like to spend as long as she can enjoying her grandchildren.
The attitude that accepts covid deaths “cos they’re old or have something wrong with them’ makes me worry about our society at a very fundamental level.
To labour the point: let’s say there’s a guy in his 30s with a few pounds on (underlying condition, check), borderline high blood pressure (underlying condition, check), ex smoker cos he was a bit daft in his 20s (underlying condition, check) - three kids under 7. Is he an acceptable casualty?
We could easily open up society and business if we could trust people to do the right thing.
We can live with covid and keep everyone safe while living life to a relatively comfortable level, but there’s a sense of entitlement from some that won’t accept any impact on their 2019 lives. And like it or not, that is why we are struggling to contain it.

You never even mentioned the numbers of young and healthy that need supplementary oxygen for a few days in Hospital. The let it R.I.P. merchants assume every patient in hospital/ICU/passed away is old, fail and expendable, that's just not true.

ChikiChiki · 24-10-2020 2:40am

Wolf359f wrote: »

I'm really hoping, as much as many including myself disagreed with the Governments flipflopping about with levels, that they pulled the trigger early compared to the rest of Europe. I fear the second wave in Europe will cause a lot of deaths and more long term effects with long covid and missed/cancelled healthcare.

NPHET for all it's many many faults (and they have a lot) raised the issue well before we surpassed our previous peak (we're now ~40% over our peak) some parts of Europe are 3-4x over their first peak, which is a scary number.

Yes I know testing was crap everywhere back then etc...
Yes I know hospitalization and deaths are a lower % of confirmed cased now etc...
But the very same was said in America (cases increasing and deaths falling etc...)

NPHET will never be able to do right with many.

Im just rolling with it myself and putting my trust in them. This is a very complex situation, far beyond what the average keyboard warrior may argue.

Long Covid is a worry for myself and should be a worry for all. As a 33 year old i would hate to be left with an horrific side effect or underlying illness from this.

46 Long · 24-10-2020 2:47am

Tellyium wrote: »

I’m going to use your post as an example of an attitude that, quite frankly, really worries me.
I really hope, if or when I get to my eighties, that I’m not written of and considered dispensable. Your elderly mother agreeing doesn’t make it right. My elderly mother would like to spend as long as she can enjoying her grandchildren.
The attitude that accepts covid deaths “cos they’re old or have something wrong with them’ makes me worry about our society at a very fundamental level.
To labour the point: let’s say there’s a guy in his 30s with a few pounds on (underlying condition, check), borderline high blood pressure (underlying condition, check), ex smoker cos he was a bit daft in his 20s (underlying condition, check) - three kids under 7. Is he an acceptable casualty?
We could easily open up society and business if we could trust people to do the right thing.
We can live with covid and keep everyone safe while living life to a relatively comfortable level, but there’s a sense of entitlement from some that won’t accept any impact on their 2019 lives. And like it or not, that is why we are struggling to contain it.

We make judgements like that all the time. The HSE website lists annual flu deaths of between 200-500 every year, mostly older people. Lockdowns, mandatory face masks and social distancing would probably reduce the number of deaths and mitigate the pressure on the health services. But we don't do that, never have and never will.

Wolf359f · 24-10-2020 2:48am

ChikiChiki wrote: »

NPHET will never be able to do right with many.

Im just rolling with it myself and putting my trust in them. This is a very complex situation, far beyond what the average keyboard warrior may argue.

The government gets advice from NPHET, NPHET are not the all seeing eye, they are not infallible. They are made up of humans who collaborate with the ECDC and other organisations around the world. The mess we're in is not unique to Ireland, the rest of Europe are in the same mud, spilling the same blood as we are.
But we Irish always love to complain about nearly everything, the fact is the same mistakes Government/NPHET make here, have been made around the world. Some mistakes are unique to Ireland, I'll grant ya that, but stop thinking it;s the Government that's going to get us out of the mess, the Government are not spreading Covid, the public are.

Wolf359f · 24-10-2020 2:54am

46 Long wrote: »

We make judgements like that all the time. The HSE website lists annual flu deaths of between 200-500 every year, mostly older people. Lockdowns, mandatory face masks and social distancing would probably reduce the number of deaths and mitigate the pressure on the health services. But we don't do that, never have and never will.

No offence, but when you go comparing Covid to the Flu, you've already lost the argument. i can't recall a flu season where we had 180 in ICU and nearly 900 in hospital and 1800 deaths during Spring.

46 Long · 24-10-2020 3:14am

Wolf359f wrote: »

No offence, but when you go comparing Covid to the Flu, you've already lost the argument. i can't recall a flu season where we had 180 in ICU and nearly 900 in hospital and 1800 deaths during Spring.

I'm not comparing it with the flu. I'm using it as an example of how we balance the risk of an endemic illness to the few vs the needs of the many.

There's a moral issue in your approach also - you seem to be suggesting that 1800 deaths from Covid19 justifies shutting down the country whereas 500 from influenza does not?

Wolf359f · 24-10-2020 3:27am

46 Long wrote: »

I'm not comparing it with the flu. I'm using it as an example of how we balance the risk of an endemic illness to the few vs the needs of the many.

There's a moral issue in your approach also - you seem to be suggesting that 1800 deaths from Covid19 justifies shutting down the country whereas 500 from influenza does not?

Firstly your using a full years deaths of the Flu compared to a a month of Covid (we had 1 month of covid circulating before we locked down) That's a massive difference.

Secondly we have a vaccine for the flu, but without a 100% uptake, increasing the uptake would reduce deaths.

Third, Covid isn't even a year old, we have no major treatments or therapy and no vaccine yet. The fatality rate of Covid is 10x more than the flu and can cause long tern issues (as it's so new, we don't know to what extent)
Hospitals have been overrun throughout the world with covid patients and there has been alot of knock on effects with day to day treatments and surgery's cancelled. We won't know the knock on effects of this for years.

It's a new virus that we still know little about and your solution is....treat it like the flu? I;m afraid the threat of Covid is to the many, not only the few.
You're soley looking at this per deaths and not all the other factors.
You really think the world for the most part went into lockdown for something that can be compared to the flu?

cnocbui · 24-10-2020 4:23am

Wolf359f wrote: »

You never even mentioned the numbers of young and healthy that need supplementary oxygen for a few days in Hospital. The let it R.I.P. merchants assume every patient in hospital/ICU/passed away is old, fail and expendable, that's just not true.

That works out at 100 'young' people requiring intensive care oxygen if 5 million Irish people were to get SARS-2. Which is a small number compared to the number of 'young' people who commit suicide annually in Ireland.

(using US rates of infection, hospitalisation and age distribution)

46 Long · 24-10-2020 4:31am

Wolf359f wrote: »

Secondly we have a vaccine for the flu, but without a 100% uptake, increasing the uptake would reduce deaths.

Flu vaccines have been around since the 1930s and are only partially effective. The 2018/2019 vaccine in the US was 29% effective.

Flu still kills 600,000+ people every year. We could dramatically reduce this with lockdowns, social distancing and masks. Yet, we don't. It's an endemic illness and cases would climb again the second we lifted restrictions. Society cannot function long-term under lockdown so the only approach is to mitigate as best as we can and come to terms with the inevitable. You might not be able to stomach it yet but public opinion will eventually come around to accepting this with Covid19 also. Life will go on.

Wolf359f wrote: »

Third, Covid isn't even a year old, we have no major treatments or therapy and no vaccine yet.

And we're probably not going to have a vaccine for a long time to come. When it does arrive it will almost certainly only be partially effective, roll-out will be difficult and the anti-vaxxers who refuse it will cause serious issues for the rest of us. Humans have bent nature to our will and eradicated viruses like smallpox in the past but it took decades to accomplish. Covid has a perpetual zoonotic reservoir that we will probably never be able to eliminate.

Wolf359f wrote: »

Hospitals have been overrun throughout the world with covid patients and there has been alot of knock on effects with day to day treatments and surgery's cancelled.

Yeah, our health system is clearly not fit for purpose. We've known this for years now. The HSE recently announced “unprecedented” government funding of €600 million for 500 new acute beds in hospitals and 17 additional ICU beds. We send a little less than that (€570 million) in foreign aid to other countries every year. When it comes to building up our health service or dumping money into a black hole in Sub-Saharan Africa we choose the latter.

Wolf359f wrote: »

You really think the world for the most part went into lockdown for something that can be compared to the flu?

As a species we are capable of the most profound hysteria and irrationality. Witness the resurgence of measles in the US since the anti-vax movement took off, or our continued collective belief in religion and supernatural deities in the face of all evidence pointing to the contrary.

Russman · 24-10-2020 4:36am

Tellyium wrote: »

I’m going to use your post as an example of an attitude that, quite frankly, really worries me.
I really hope, if or when I get to my eighties, that I’m not written of and considered dispensable. Your elderly mother agreeing doesn’t make it right. My elderly mother would like to spend as long as she can enjoying her grandchildren.
The attitude that accepts covid deaths “cos they’re old or have something wrong with them’ makes me worry about our society at a very fundamental level.
To labour the point: let’s say there’s a guy in his 30s with a few pounds on (underlying condition, check), borderline high blood pressure (underlying condition, check), ex smoker cos he was a bit daft in his 20s (underlying condition, check) - three kids under 7. Is he an acceptable casualty?
We could easily open up society and business if we could trust people to do the right thing.
We can live with covid and keep everyone safe while living life to a relatively comfortable level, but there’s a sense of entitlement from some that won’t accept any impact on their 2019 lives. And like it or not, that is why we are struggling to contain it.

This times a thousand

Bobeagleburger · 24-10-2020 5:32am

This disease isn't the massive killer that was feared back in March.

If you're in some vulnerable groups yes, it's pretty lethal. I'm not talking about these groups as that's a given.

ICU numbers are still low while the country is awash with Covid infections. That is key.

Maintain social distance, wear masks and keep hand hygiene up to scratch and lockdowns aren't required. Imo.

igCorcaigh · 24-10-2020 5:39am

6 wrote: »

Maintain social distance, wear masks and keep hand hygiene up to scratch and lockdowns aren't required. Imo.

We were doing those things during the summer, but then cases increased dramatically. Why?

Bobeagleburger · 24-10-2020 6:07am

igCorcaigh wrote: »

We were doing those things during the summer, but then cases increased dramatically. Why?

Pretty obvious surely
Colleges, schools, pubs reopened, County final celebrations.

By all means stay at level 2 or 3.

The impact (ICU numbers, deaths ) of the increased infections doesn't warrant level 5 lockdowns for the majority of the population.

igCorcaigh · 24-10-2020 6:28am

6 wrote: »

Pretty obvious surely
Colleges, schools, pubs reopened, County final celebrations.

By all means stay at level 2 or 3.

The impact (ICU numbers, deaths ) of the increased infections doesn't warrant level 5 lockdowns for the majority of the population.

Yes. Data shown on sky news suggested a huge role in universities contributing to spread, although i suspect it may be due to associated socialising.

I think indoor socialising is the big problem. But shutting those venues and banning household visits is akin to a lockdown for many i suspect.

I don't see the logic of closing retail though.

harr · 24-10-2020 6:53am

Staffing levels in various hospitals and nursing homes is going to be a huge issue in the coming weeks, a patient transferred to Nass hospital from a Dublin hospital has infected a whole ward and a lot of staff because it took 3 days before anyone realised he had COVID. He was placed on an open ward . ( psychiatric unit )

Dempo1 · 24-10-2020 7:08am

alentejo wrote: »

I think the whole issue of essential retail and clothing is going to become an issue. Yes I know you can click and collect, however at this time of year, I suspect a lot of people of all ages require clothes. Everything from scarves, coats, gloves etc.

Dunnes clothes in Rathmines was open thru Lockdown MK1 and served a purpose to but teeshirts etc when the weather became warmer. Likewise, this time, people will need things to adapt to the changing weather etc.

I think history will judge the non essential retail as one of the most unfair policies ever pursued by any Irish Government!

It clearly has become an issue as reporting on various media platforms yesterday suggest the letter of the law or intended purpose of click and collect being widely abused. Even the representative bodies are up in arms but interesting, Retail Excellence neglecting to mention its own members being quite naughty.

The crux of the issue are twofold.

A. Click & Collect, means just that, not click, drive too, browse, shop and leave.

B. Offering an emergency service only. This features in a sub section of Essential retail. Basically it opens the doors, Literally to certain retailers, such as Carphone warehouse, Network stores etc to proudly advertise that they are fully open when the rules clearly state the opposite (emergency services only), to Vodafone credit (excuse the pun) they do actually state this on their website, listing shop numbers to call and explaining customers can not just arrive a purchase products etc.

Walking around a midland town yesterday, I personally saw not just abuses of the rules, but certainly doors wide open in two such stores and people browsing.

I'm absolutely not advocating lockdown but advocating that Rules are Rules and if blatant flouting of the rules and indeed law continues, its only going to encourage rightly aggrieved retailers actually shut, to re think.

24-10-2020 7:17am

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-24/dear-ireland-a-second-lockdown-is-hard-melbourne-has-advice/12806058

Interesting article that friends in Melbourne sent me overnight.

igCorcaigh · 24-10-2020 7:37am

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1319889516677586944?s=19

obi604 · 24-10-2020 7:38am

I noted my nearest car wash was closed today. Are these also shut as part of level 5? Or maybe they just on a day off.

PowerToWait · 24-10-2020 8:30am

Thread has become practically unreadable now, morphing into the ‘relaxation....’ thread. The same posters posting disinformation and whinging about destruction of economies, lives and mental health.

When the arch harridan Ciara Kelly is the hero of the thread you know it’s in the sewer.

manniot2 · 24-10-2020 8:40am

PowerToWait wrote: »

Thread has become practically unreadable now, morphing into the ‘relaxation....’ thread. The same posters posting disinformation and whinging about destruction of economies, lives and mental health.

When the arch harridan Ciara Kelly is the hero of the thread you know it’s in the sewer.

You’re right. Nothing has changed, it’s March again. Let’s dramatically overreact again and pretend the plague is here.

caveat emptor · 24-10-2020 8:41am

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Is anyone thinking of using the daily new case numbers for playing the Lotto with? Some weird combinations during the week 1066 (Battle Of Hastings), today we had 777 ( a fine aeroplane).

Yeah odd alright. I think it's a warning for this Christmas.

A paper just came out from our very own public health experts. If the Government don't change their opinion on this now that we have firm evidence there will be a lot of people not happy with the current "strategy". We have to put up with this crap in schools / nursing homes / hospital and when we get it down to a manageable level we are going to leave the stable door open again?

I use the word strategy in the loosest of terms. They don't mention the flight but 7 hours might put it at New York?

A large national outbreak of COVID-19 linked to air travel, Ireland, summer 2020

An outbreak of 59 cases of coronavirus disease (COVID-19) originated with 13 cases linked by a 7 h, 17% occupancy flight into Ireland, summer 2020. The flight-associated attack rate was 9.8–17.8%. Spread to 46 non-flight cases occurred country-wide. Asymptomatic/pre-symptomatic transmission in-flight from a point source is implicated by 99% homology across the virus genome in five cases travelling from three different continents. Restriction of movement on arrival and robust contact tracing can limit propagation post-flight.

Air travel has accelerated the global pandemic, contrib- uting to the spread of coronavirus disease (COVID-19) throughout the world. We describe an outbreak that demonstrates in-flight transmission, providing fur- ther evidence to add to the small number of published studies in this area. This study depicts the nature of transmission on board, despite implementation of non- pharmaceutical interventions. We demonstrate wide- spread in-country transmission as a result of imported infection and give recommendations to reduce the risk of importation, and to curtail onwards spread.

Jim_Hodge · 24-10-2020 8:53am

manniot2 wrote: »

You’re right. Nothing has changed, it’s March again. Let’s dramatically overreact again and pretend the plague is here.

In fairness, there's just as much "it's only a flu", "only old people die" etc.

Both sides have left the thread impossible to follow.

zerosugarbuzz · 24-10-2020 8:54am

igCorcaigh wrote: »

We were doing those things during the summer, but then cases increased dramatically. Why?

More testing which results in more positive results, particularly when the drill down so deep to find the most tiny minuscule amount of Covid. Even dead Covid many months old gives a positive result. The mind boggles.

Covid 19 Part XXVII- 62,002 ROI (1,915 deaths) 39,609 NI (724 deaths) (02/11) Read OP

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