Covid 19 Part XXVII- 62,002 ROI (1,915 deaths) 39,609 NI (724 deaths) (02/11) Read OP

Sardonicat · 24-10-2020 01:14AM

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Dole is easy when you add in HAP, back to school allowance, fuel allowance, medical card, free creche etc.

People with mortgages of 1400 a month don't have the safety of HAP paying your whole months rent.

HAP isn't something handed out with the dole. Not everyone on a low income/social welfare is fortunate to secure a HAP tenancy.

podgeandrodge · 24-10-2020 01:26AM

froog wrote: »

garda checkpoints are utterly useless. the gangs of young people having house parties are not driving long distances, or driving at all.

Allinall wrote: »

The threat of fines will make a big difference.

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Exactly.

All it takes is a couple of fines and people will get the message very quickly.

What Username Guidelines wrote: »

Kicking off in Naples as the governor attempts to lock down again.

https://twitter.com/bnodesk/status/1319778759109640195?s=21

I think that we are inevitably moving towards population acceptance of living with covid and vulnerable looking after themselves. I believe that the general population at large will agree to deaths of those in 80's and accept ICU deaths as a necessary evil, to allow majority of country/economy survive.

Horrible but true. By the way, my elderly mother would agree.

WoollyRedHat · 24-10-2020 01:28AM

podgeandrodge wrote: »

I think that we are inevitably moving towards population acceptance of living with covid and vulnerable looking after themselves. I believe that the general population at large will agree to deaths of those in 80's and accept ICU deaths as a necessary evil, to allow majority of country/economy survive.

Horrible but true. By the way, my elderly mother would agree.

You are wrong and misguided. Also what do you thinks happens when the elderly population fill the ICU capacity in record numbers? Other people magically stop needing ICU? Try suggesting your hypothesis to our emergency care teams nationwide, see what traction that gets you.

podgeandrodge · 24-10-2020 01:32AM

podgeandrodge wrote: »

I think that we are inevitably moving towards population acceptance of living with covid and vulnerable looking after themselves. I believe that the general population at large will agree to deaths of those in 80's and accept ICU deaths as a necessary evil, to allow majority of country/economy survive.

Horrible but true. By the way, my elderly mother would agree.

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

You are wrong and misguided.

Ahh, see, you are conflating my opinion on what society will ultimately decide with my personal opinion on what is the correct course of action. I simply stated my forecast. So perhaps calm the cacks with your accusation that my opinion is "misguided" - I'm simply stating my view on how this pans out.

Edit: I see you've added to it:

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

You are wrong and misguided. Also what do you thinks happens when the elderly population fill the ICU capacity in record numbers? Other people magically stop needing ICU? Try suggesting your hypothesis to our emergency care teams nationwide, see what traction that gets you.

Again, I said what I think population will decide. You try to argue in an emotional manner, designed to elicit emotion, that I'm not concerned about deaths, but if you care to re-read my post, you'll see that I've simply offered by view on what the population will do.

bb1234567 · 24-10-2020 01:34AM

Over 80,000 people hospitalised with covid in the EU as of this evening

Jinglejangle69 · 24-10-2020 01:36AM

Sardonicat wrote: »

HAP isn't something handed out with the dole. Not everyone on a low income/social welfare is fortunate to secure a HAP tenancy.

Thanks for backing up my point about the pup payment.

The poster said people here used to give out about the dole.

Now they are on it they realise it's not a lot.

My point being people who are on the dole before covid have all those added benefits including HAP that newly qualified pup receiptents don't.

ShooterSF · 24-10-2020 01:38AM

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

That is absolutely shocking and I believe every word. Companies following the HSE guidelines and if the HSE isn't doing their job properly, it looks as if people are dossing from work.

I don't think the employers should get off unblemished here either. We are in the middle of global pandemic and their staff are trying to do the right thing and they either don't care or don't trust the people they chose to hire in the first place. Neither paints them in a great light.

WoollyRedHat · 24-10-2020 01:40AM

podgeandrodge wrote: »

Ahh, see, you are conflating my opinion on what society will ultimately decide with my personal opinion on what is the correct course of action. I simply stated my forecast. So perhaps calm the cacks with your accusation that my opinion is "misguided" - I'm simply stating my view on how this pans out.

Edit: I see you've added to it:

Again, I said what I think population will decide. You try to argue in an emotional manner, designed to elicit emotion, that I'm not concerned about deaths, but if you care to re-read my post, you'll see that I've simply offered by view on what the population will do.

Ok then, fair enough, then I respectively disagree with your opinion.

Society won't dictate that, elected governments and public health teams ultimately will, and thank goodness for that. There is no overwhelming evidence to support your opinion, we would have to enter the most bleakness of rsituations before that were to become in anyway a reality and thankfully we are not there yet.

Polar101 · 24-10-2020 01:45AM

speckle wrote: »

I presume you are not refering to my post...all I said was I was concerned .. and none off the rest that you just posted above?

Not refering to your post speckle, just in general.

24-10-2020 01:46AM

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Dole is easy when you add in HAP, back to school allowance, fuel allowance, medical card, free creche etc.

People with mortgages of 1400 a month don't have the safety of HAP paying your whole months rent.

People working get a medical card, though FG have made that even more difficult, and last time I checked any one working could get a under 6 gp card.
People on reasonable good money get state funded child care and HAP isn't given out with the dole though landlords seem to have a love hate relationship with it.

Wolf359f · 24-10-2020 01:50AM

NewRed2 wrote: »

No look, I know and BELIEVE me I know... And no I wouldn't mess with Revenue, everything has to tally up. But at the same time, I'll use the hair dressers example again, do ya really think Mary from No.2 is gonna go 6 weeks or longer without a perm? So lets say Mary's usual stylist refuses to do it for covid reasons what happens?
Mary finds a person who will do it. (this person is already on PUP) They call round and do it for cash. Mary is delighted with the job.
Now Mary wont go back to the other person who was previously doing it.
So the person obeying the rules has lost a customer. the tax payer gets zero, mary is chuffed and the new stylist gets paid more coz theres no tax.
I'm not sure what profession you're in and I'm not encouraging any hair dressing but you get what I'm saying?

Oh don't misunderstand, I full agree with everything you have said.
And in your example, the law abiding hairstylist looses a regular customer they had for years. So they don;t do the job and claim PUP and loose a life long customer or do the job for cash (which is a no no) or do the job for free (at a loss) they are screwed in all scenarios.

I know the hairdressing analogy maybe wrong (with hairdressers closed), but a graphic designer, photographer, wedding singer and so so many more occupations are in the same boat.

Wolf359f · 24-10-2020 01:57AM

bb1234567 wrote: »

Over 80,000 people hospitalised with covid in the EU as of this evening

I'm really hoping, as much as many including myself disagreed with the Governments flipflopping about with levels, that they pulled the trigger early compared to the rest of Europe. I fear the second wave in Europe will cause a lot of deaths and more long term effects with long covid and missed/cancelled healthcare.

NPHET for all it's many many faults (and they have a lot) raised the issue well before we surpassed our previous peak (we're now ~40% over our peak) some parts of Europe are 3-4x over their first peak, which is a scary number.

Yes I know testing was crap everywhere back then etc...
Yes I know hospitalization and deaths are a lower % of confirmed cased now etc...
But the very same was said in America (cases increasing and deaths falling etc...)

Atlantic Dawn · 24-10-2020 02:03AM

Is anyone thinking of using the daily new case numbers for playing the Lotto with? Some weird combinations during the week 1066 (Battle Of Hastings), today we had 777 ( a fine aeroplane).

Strumms · 24-10-2020 02:07AM

DubInMeath wrote: »

People working get a medical card, though FG have made that even more difficult, and last time I checked any one working could get a under 6 gp card.
People on reasonable good money get state funded child care and HAP isn't given out with the dole though landlords seem to have a love hate relationship with it.

FG *spit* took away both my parents medical cards, both retired, both with medical conditions at the time... My Dad a heart problem, arthritis, my mother skin cancer and worsening arthritis... thankfully the cancer was caught and treated early.

FG’s relationship with most issues in this country is toxic. Toxic fûcking neanderthal people and party.

Minnie Snuggles · 24-10-2020 02:13AM

I really hope I'm wrong, but there is a possibility that in 10 years time, the people who are complaining about a 6 week lockdown now, will be saying that it was not long enough, we simply do not know what the long term effects will be. Do we know how many are suffering from Long Covid?

I have seen a lot of posts saying "just protect the vulnerable, and let the rest of us get on with living our lives" - we do not know who the "vulnerable" are.

Wolf359f · 24-10-2020 02:16AM

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Is anyone thinking of using the daily new case numbers for playing the Lotto with? Some weird combinations during the week 1066 (Battle Of Hastings), today we had 777 ( a fine aeroplane).

I've always wanted to apply Benford's law to new case numbers and see how legit some countries are at reporting. It feels like we've had a very high number of even numbers reported, but could be (more than likely) in my mind.

On a side point, anyone feel jealous at Nenagh & Lismore?
On the LEA map both are less than 5/100k population when the national average is 300+
Guess they have no schools!

Wolf359f · 24-10-2020 02:23AM

Minnie Snuggles wrote: »

I really hope I'm wrong, but there is a possibility that in 10 years time, the people who are complaining about a 6 week lockdown now, will be saying that it was not long enough, we simply do not know what the long term effects will be. Do we know how many are suffering from Long Covid?

I have seen a lot of posts saying "just protect the vulnerable, and let the rest of us get on with living our lives" - we do not know who the "vulnerable" are.

I totally agree. Long covid can and could be a major health issue in the future. But one would hope, due to the millions infected there would be worldwide collaboration for treatment (of course there's plenty of diseases with millions suffering from that gets ignored)

The very same people would also be giving out about a family member having operations/diagnosis delayed because the hospitals were filled with 'let it rip' casualties.

The sooner people realize this virus effects everyone in many ways the better.
And spare a though to people in nursing homes who can't have visitors, it wouldn't even want to image that.
But of course others would be giving out that they can't visit a friend on a ward in a hospital whose only in there for a week.

Tellyium · 24-10-2020 02:28AM

podgeandrodge wrote: »

I think that we are inevitably moving towards population acceptance of living with covid and vulnerable looking after themselves. I believe that the general population at large will agree to deaths of those in 80's and accept ICU deaths as a necessary evil, to allow majority of country/economy survive.

Horrible but true. By the way, my elderly mother would agree.

I’m going to use your post as an example of an attitude that, quite frankly, really worries me.
I really hope, if or when I get to my eighties, that I’m not written of and considered dispensable. Your elderly mother agreeing doesn’t make it right. My elderly mother would like to spend as long as she can enjoying her grandchildren.
The attitude that accepts covid deaths “cos they’re old or have something wrong with them’ makes me worry about our society at a very fundamental level.
To labour the point: let’s say there’s a guy in his 30s with a few pounds on (underlying condition, check), borderline high blood pressure (underlying condition, check), ex smoker cos he was a bit daft in his 20s (underlying condition, check) - three kids under 7. Is he an acceptable casualty?
We could easily open up society and business if we could trust people to do the right thing.
We can live with covid and keep everyone safe while living life to a relatively comfortable level, but there’s a sense of entitlement from some that won’t accept any impact on their 2019 lives. And like it or not, that is why we are struggling to contain it.

Minnie Snuggles · 24-10-2020 02:39AM

Wolf359f wrote: »

I totally agree. Long covid can and could be a major health issue in the future. But one would hope, due to the millions infected there would be worldwide collaboration for treatment (of course there's plenty of diseases with millions suffering from that gets ignored)

The very same people would also be giving out about a family member having operations/diagnosis delayed because the hospitals were filled with 'let it rip' casualties.

The sooner people realize this virus effects everyone in many ways the better.
And spare a though to people in nursing homes who can't have visitors, it wouldn't even want to image that.
But of course others would be giving out that they can't visit a friend on a ward in a hospital whose only in there for a week.

Thanks for your reply, I understand and sympathize with anyone on medical/compassionate grounds. I can never begin to imagine the stress these people are under right now.

It's the people who just want to have their weekends back, that want to "demonstrate" their right not to wear a mask, that annoy me.

Wolf359f · 24-10-2020 02:40AM

Tellyium wrote: »

I’m going to use your post as an example of an attitude that, quite frankly, really worries me.
I really hope, if or when I get to my eighties, that I’m not written of and considered dispensable. Your elderly mother agreeing doesn’t make it right. My elderly mother would like to spend as long as she can enjoying her grandchildren.
The attitude that accepts covid deaths “cos they’re old or have something wrong with them’ makes me worry about our society at a very fundamental level.
To labour the point: let’s say there’s a guy in his 30s with a few pounds on (underlying condition, check), borderline high blood pressure (underlying condition, check), ex smoker cos he was a bit daft in his 20s (underlying condition, check) - three kids under 7. Is he an acceptable casualty?
We could easily open up society and business if we could trust people to do the right thing.
We can live with covid and keep everyone safe while living life to a relatively comfortable level, but there’s a sense of entitlement from some that won’t accept any impact on their 2019 lives. And like it or not, that is why we are struggling to contain it.

You never even mentioned the numbers of young and healthy that need supplementary oxygen for a few days in Hospital. The let it R.I.P. merchants assume every patient in hospital/ICU/passed away is old, fail and expendable, that's just not true.

ChikiChiki · 24-10-2020 02:40AM

Wolf359f wrote: »

I'm really hoping, as much as many including myself disagreed with the Governments flipflopping about with levels, that they pulled the trigger early compared to the rest of Europe. I fear the second wave in Europe will cause a lot of deaths and more long term effects with long covid and missed/cancelled healthcare.

NPHET for all it's many many faults (and they have a lot) raised the issue well before we surpassed our previous peak (we're now ~40% over our peak) some parts of Europe are 3-4x over their first peak, which is a scary number.

Yes I know testing was crap everywhere back then etc...
Yes I know hospitalization and deaths are a lower % of confirmed cased now etc...
But the very same was said in America (cases increasing and deaths falling etc...)

NPHET will never be able to do right with many.

Im just rolling with it myself and putting my trust in them. This is a very complex situation, far beyond what the average keyboard warrior may argue.

Long Covid is a worry for myself and should be a worry for all. As a 33 year old i would hate to be left with an horrific side effect or underlying illness from this.

46 Long · 24-10-2020 02:47AM

Tellyium wrote: »

I’m going to use your post as an example of an attitude that, quite frankly, really worries me.
I really hope, if or when I get to my eighties, that I’m not written of and considered dispensable. Your elderly mother agreeing doesn’t make it right. My elderly mother would like to spend as long as she can enjoying her grandchildren.
The attitude that accepts covid deaths “cos they’re old or have something wrong with them’ makes me worry about our society at a very fundamental level.
To labour the point: let’s say there’s a guy in his 30s with a few pounds on (underlying condition, check), borderline high blood pressure (underlying condition, check), ex smoker cos he was a bit daft in his 20s (underlying condition, check) - three kids under 7. Is he an acceptable casualty?
We could easily open up society and business if we could trust people to do the right thing.
We can live with covid and keep everyone safe while living life to a relatively comfortable level, but there’s a sense of entitlement from some that won’t accept any impact on their 2019 lives. And like it or not, that is why we are struggling to contain it.

We make judgements like that all the time. The HSE website lists annual flu deaths of between 200-500 every year, mostly older people. Lockdowns, mandatory face masks and social distancing would probably reduce the number of deaths and mitigate the pressure on the health services. But we don't do that, never have and never will.

Wolf359f · 24-10-2020 02:48AM

ChikiChiki wrote: »

NPHET will never be able to do right with many.

Im just rolling with it myself and putting my trust in them. This is a very complex situation, far beyond what the average keyboard warrior may argue.

The government gets advice from NPHET, NPHET are not the all seeing eye, they are not infallible. They are made up of humans who collaborate with the ECDC and other organisations around the world. The mess we're in is not unique to Ireland, the rest of Europe are in the same mud, spilling the same blood as we are.
But we Irish always love to complain about nearly everything, the fact is the same mistakes Government/NPHET make here, have been made around the world. Some mistakes are unique to Ireland, I'll grant ya that, but stop thinking it;s the Government that's going to get us out of the mess, the Government are not spreading Covid, the public are.

Wolf359f · 24-10-2020 02:54AM

46 Long wrote: »

We make judgements like that all the time. The HSE website lists annual flu deaths of between 200-500 every year, mostly older people. Lockdowns, mandatory face masks and social distancing would probably reduce the number of deaths and mitigate the pressure on the health services. But we don't do that, never have and never will.

No offence, but when you go comparing Covid to the Flu, you've already lost the argument. i can't recall a flu season where we had 180 in ICU and nearly 900 in hospital and 1800 deaths during Spring.

46 Long · 24-10-2020 03:14AM

Wolf359f wrote: »

No offence, but when you go comparing Covid to the Flu, you've already lost the argument. i can't recall a flu season where we had 180 in ICU and nearly 900 in hospital and 1800 deaths during Spring.

I'm not comparing it with the flu. I'm using it as an example of how we balance the risk of an endemic illness to the few vs the needs of the many.

There's a moral issue in your approach also - you seem to be suggesting that 1800 deaths from Covid19 justifies shutting down the country whereas 500 from influenza does not?

Wolf359f · 24-10-2020 03:27AM

46 Long wrote: »

I'm not comparing it with the flu. I'm using it as an example of how we balance the risk of an endemic illness to the few vs the needs of the many.

There's a moral issue in your approach also - you seem to be suggesting that 1800 deaths from Covid19 justifies shutting down the country whereas 500 from influenza does not?

Firstly your using a full years deaths of the Flu compared to a a month of Covid (we had 1 month of covid circulating before we locked down) That's a massive difference.

Secondly we have a vaccine for the flu, but without a 100% uptake, increasing the uptake would reduce deaths.

Third, Covid isn't even a year old, we have no major treatments or therapy and no vaccine yet. The fatality rate of Covid is 10x more than the flu and can cause long tern issues (as it's so new, we don't know to what extent)
Hospitals have been overrun throughout the world with covid patients and there has been alot of knock on effects with day to day treatments and surgery's cancelled. We won't know the knock on effects of this for years.

It's a new virus that we still know little about and your solution is....treat it like the flu? I;m afraid the threat of Covid is to the many, not only the few.
You're soley looking at this per deaths and not all the other factors.
You really think the world for the most part went into lockdown for something that can be compared to the flu?

cnocbui · 24-10-2020 04:23AM

Wolf359f wrote: »

You never even mentioned the numbers of young and healthy that need supplementary oxygen for a few days in Hospital. The let it R.I.P. merchants assume every patient in hospital/ICU/passed away is old, fail and expendable, that's just not true.

That works out at 100 'young' people requiring intensive care oxygen if 5 million Irish people were to get SARS-2. Which is a small number compared to the number of 'young' people who commit suicide annually in Ireland.

(using US rates of infection, hospitalisation and age distribution)

46 Long · 24-10-2020 04:31AM

Wolf359f wrote: »

Secondly we have a vaccine for the flu, but without a 100% uptake, increasing the uptake would reduce deaths.

Flu vaccines have been around since the 1930s and are only partially effective. The 2018/2019 vaccine in the US was 29% effective.

Flu still kills 600,000+ people every year. We could dramatically reduce this with lockdowns, social distancing and masks. Yet, we don't. It's an endemic illness and cases would climb again the second we lifted restrictions. Society cannot function long-term under lockdown so the only approach is to mitigate as best as we can and come to terms with the inevitable. You might not be able to stomach it yet but public opinion will eventually come around to accepting this with Covid19 also. Life will go on.

Wolf359f wrote: »

Third, Covid isn't even a year old, we have no major treatments or therapy and no vaccine yet.

And we're probably not going to have a vaccine for a long time to come. When it does arrive it will almost certainly only be partially effective, roll-out will be difficult and the anti-vaxxers who refuse it will cause serious issues for the rest of us. Humans have bent nature to our will and eradicated viruses like smallpox in the past but it took decades to accomplish. Covid has a perpetual zoonotic reservoir that we will probably never be able to eliminate.

Wolf359f wrote: »

Hospitals have been overrun throughout the world with covid patients and there has been alot of knock on effects with day to day treatments and surgery's cancelled.

Yeah, our health system is clearly not fit for purpose. We've known this for years now. The HSE recently announced “unprecedented” government funding of €600 million for 500 new acute beds in hospitals and 17 additional ICU beds. We send a little less than that (€570 million) in foreign aid to other countries every year. When it comes to building up our health service or dumping money into a black hole in Sub-Saharan Africa we choose the latter.

Wolf359f wrote: »

You really think the world for the most part went into lockdown for something that can be compared to the flu?

As a species we are capable of the most profound hysteria and irrationality. Witness the resurgence of measles in the US since the anti-vax movement took off, or our continued collective belief in religion and supernatural deities in the face of all evidence pointing to the contrary.

Russman · 24-10-2020 04:36AM

Tellyium wrote: »

I’m going to use your post as an example of an attitude that, quite frankly, really worries me.
I really hope, if or when I get to my eighties, that I’m not written of and considered dispensable. Your elderly mother agreeing doesn’t make it right. My elderly mother would like to spend as long as she can enjoying her grandchildren.
The attitude that accepts covid deaths “cos they’re old or have something wrong with them’ makes me worry about our society at a very fundamental level.
To labour the point: let’s say there’s a guy in his 30s with a few pounds on (underlying condition, check), borderline high blood pressure (underlying condition, check), ex smoker cos he was a bit daft in his 20s (underlying condition, check) - three kids under 7. Is he an acceptable casualty?
We could easily open up society and business if we could trust people to do the right thing.
We can live with covid and keep everyone safe while living life to a relatively comfortable level, but there’s a sense of entitlement from some that won’t accept any impact on their 2019 lives. And like it or not, that is why we are struggling to contain it.

This times a thousand

24-10-2020 05:32AM

This disease isn't the massive killer that was feared back in March.

If you're in some vulnerable groups yes, it's pretty lethal. I'm not talking about these groups as that's a given.

ICU numbers are still low while the country is awash with Covid infections. That is key.

Maintain social distance, wear masks and keep hand hygiene up to scratch and lockdowns aren't required. Imo.

Covid 19 Part XXVII- 62,002 ROI (1,915 deaths) 39,609 NI (724 deaths) (02/11) Read OP

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