Covid-19; Impact on the aviation industry

JW7 · 25-09-2020 12:49pm

Great article in the times today highlighting the plight of Aer Lingus staff. Really hits home the hardship they are suffering

kona · 25-09-2020 3:18pm

JW7 wrote: »

Great article in the times today highlighting the plight of Aer Lingus staff. Really hits home the hardship they are suffering

A "unionised" workplace too.

basill · 25-09-2020 3:35pm

Ryanair is unionised as well. Doesn't stop MOL having his Dublin based permanent flight deck on what is effectively a zero hours contract since covid.

Tenger · 25-09-2020 7:32pm

basill wrote: »

Ryanair is unionised as well. Doesn't stop MOL having his Dublin based permanent flight deck on what is effectively a zero hours contract since covid.

I read a piece 2-3 weeks ago from the European Cockpit Association (ECA) that highlighted the various things done by Euro airlines. It popped up on my Facebook.
One of them gad moved from a "pay to fly" model to a "pay to standby" model. (I think it was Wizzair)

kona · 25-09-2020 8:06pm

Tenger wrote: »

I read a piece 2-3 weeks ago from the European Cockpit Association (ECA) that highlighted the various things done by Euro airlines. It popped up on my Facebook.
One of them gad moved from a "pay to fly" model to a "pay to standby" model. (I think it was Wizzair)

Some of the "models" which are now being exploited are crazy stuff, its really grim. Thats probably the worst ive heard.

25-09-2020 8:14pm

Lufthansa looking to lay off 1100 pilots. These are unprecedented times in the industry.

basill · 25-09-2020 8:24pm

Yep all of the above is happening plus some across the industry. Whilst some airlines no doubt started out with genuine intentions the lines are now becoming increasingly blurred. Offers of winters off without pay could well become the new normal where the airlines exploit your hours in a compressed time period (eg: the summer) and then cast you off into the wild blue yonder to fend for yourself. Of course you won't be allowed to fly for anyone else as your "sponsor" airline will want all of the 900 hours to themselves. Seasonal promotions is another "clever" idea I have heard thrown around of late.

If these sharp work practices are allowed to gather momentum then aviation could well become a part time endeavour for many and a second job a must for survival. Its not hard to imagine that standards will invariably drop as a result.

Tenger · 25-09-2020 8:25pm

kona wrote: »

Some of the "models" which are now being exploited are crazy stuff, its really grim. Thats probably the worst ive heard.

Found the article;
https://www.eurocockpit.be/news/hall-shame-snapshot-new-anti-crew-practices-emerging-during-covid19

Inquitus · 30-09-2020 3:16pm

14% Avg Occupancy on all flights leaving the UK yesterday year on year comparisons have Ryanair down 50% and BA 76%.

Blut2 · 30-09-2020 4:26pm

Thats shocking. I'd wonder how long can airlines keep running flights at those sorts of numbers, by the sounds of things European governments are already starting to batten down the hatches for 6 more months of lockdowns now. We must be facing into a winter/spring of mass flight cancellations at some stage soon.

donkey balls · 01-10-2020 7:15am

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I know this has nothing to do about Irish aviation but a lad I work with his daughter works for NATS, And she told him that student controllers have being let go with only a few weeks left on their training.
Talk about a kick in the teeth you would think they would have just let them finish their training.

PinOnTheRight · 01-10-2020 10:11am

donkey balls wrote: »

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I know this has nothing to do about Irish aviation but a lad I work with his daughter works for NATS, And she told him that student controllers have being let go with only a few weeks left on their training.
Talk about a kick in the teeth you would think they would have just let them finish their training.

Trainee Air Traffic Controllers that have already been posted to an operational unit (over 200) are being kept, it's the student controllers still studying at the college that are being let go, which is around 120 I believe.

There isn't much benefit in letting them finish their training, as the majority will be on an area control course, and would be issued with a student licence only valid in the UK, so technically you could only get a job with NATS, and they don't forsee a need for anymore trainees for sometime.

In addition, the costs to train controllers are eye-watering. The class-room element may be fairly cheap, but running simulations to provide training involves dozens of people and is significantly more expensive.

Inquitus · 01-10-2020 10:38am

PinOnTheRight wrote: »

Trainee Air Traffic Controllers that have already been posted to an operational unit (over 200) are being kept, it's the student controllers still studying at the college that are being let go, which is around 120 I believe.

An friend of mine is one of these but is still concerned by current and projected traffic numbers and the long term viability of being paid, with minor UK Gov support now the furlough scheme is ending and employers must bear most of the cost, for effectively doing nothing.

The viability of some smaller UK airports is now coming into question with the reduction in routes and capacity. How long can they sustain massive losses? Not indefinitely.

HTCOne · 01-10-2020 6:05pm

Last in first out method of compulsory redundancy was deemed illegal by UK courts in recent years on age discrimination grounds, so the younger guys MIGHT be okay, as they're on less than half the money the older guys are on, as well as DC pensions vs the DB schemes the older folks are on.

Noxegon · 01-10-2020 7:09pm

Ryanair has set out a deadline for the government to act before it closes its Cork and Shannon bases.

https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-to-close-cork-and-shannon-bases-in-oct-if-irish-govt-fails-to-fully-adopt-eu-travel-list-from-13th-oct-permitting-restriction-free-air-travel-to-from-green-and-amber-regions/?market=ie

EchoIndia · 01-10-2020 7:39pm

Noxegon wrote: »

Ryanair has set out a deadline for the government to act before it closes its Cork and Shannon bases.

The EU does not have an agreed Amber list of countries at this point. Ryanair's reference to "EU travel regulations" is erroneous, to put it kindly.

circular flexing · 01-10-2020 8:05pm

Noxegon wrote: »

Ryanair has set out a deadline for the government to act before it closes its Cork and Shannon bases.

https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-to-close-cork-and-shannon-bases-in-oct-if-irish-govt-fails-to-fully-adopt-eu-travel-list-from-13th-oct-permitting-restriction-free-air-travel-to-from-green-and-amber-regions/?market=ie

Have loads increased where restrictions have been eased? Is it possible that people just don't want to travel or can't travel because of COVID-19? I'm firmly in the don't want to travel camp.

Jack1985 · 01-10-2020 8:09pm

Have loads increased where restrictions have been eased?

Yes, there was massive demand from the likes of the UK to Greece, Spain and Portugal before quarantines were introduced/re-introduced etc.

There is a direct correlation between Gov blockades of travel -v- and the demand for it. There's a perception here that travel itself is unsafe, it's unfounded - People are responsible for protecting themselves and those close to them and it's about time adults were allowed behave as such.

EchoIndia · 01-10-2020 8:11pm

If you peruse this website it gives a good idea of the variety of restrictions or guidance in place. It's not straightforward and, like Ireland, other countries may modify their position in light of the trajectory of the disease. https://reopen.europa.eu/en

Inquitus · 01-10-2020 8:48pm

Jack1985 wrote: »

Yes, there was massive demand from the likes of the UK to Greece, Spain and Portugal before quarantines were introduced/re-introduced etc.

There is a direct correlation between Gov blockades of travel -v- and the demand for it. There's a perception here that travel itself is unsafe, it's unfounded - People are responsible for protecting themselves and those close to them and it's about time adults were allowed behave as such.

Travel is unsafe and it worked out real well for the UK with Greece, Portugal and Spain.

HTCOne · 01-10-2020 9:14pm

Inquitus wrote: »

Travel is unsafe and it worked out real well for the UK with Greece, Portugal and Spain.

We have managed to make a mess of it with zero travel in fairness. The EU and WHO both say international travel restrictions between countries where there is community transmission is pointless.

Jack1985 · 01-10-2020 9:19pm

Inquitus wrote: »

Travel is unsafe

Provide supporting material to that affect please.

It is incumbent on Gov to mitigate risk by testing, Germany has had open borders with targeted risk area testing since 01 July and do not have the same level of resurgence.

Sheep Shagger · 01-10-2020 9:26pm

A few senior enough non flying Aer Lingus staff departing, guess they can't just wait for things to improve if their skills are transferable.

Head of Social Medis being one..

Jack1985 · 01-10-2020 9:30pm

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

A few senior enough non flying Aer Lingus staff departing, guess they can't just wait for things to improve if their skills are transferable.

Head of Social Medis being one..

Lots of crew applying for VS too and evidently oversubscribed.

Tenger · 01-10-2020 11:19pm

Jack1985 wrote: »

............
There is a direct correlation between Gov blockades of travel -v- and the demand for it. There's a perception here that travel itself is unsafe, it's unfounded - People are responsible for protecting themselves and those close to them and it's about time adults were allowed behave as such.

I agreed with the idea of personal responsibility and protecting themselves.

However the same people who you may want to “treat as an adult” are incapable of doing so. A friend is EI ground staff, about 3 weeks she told me about boarding a flight to Greece. EI had to deny boarding to 30 passengers because they had not followed the required steps expected by the Greek Govt. All arrivals had to download an app, complete the information and have a QR code displayed ont heir phone. 30 people when incapable of doing so and were angry at the boarding gate staff for their own failure to “act like adults”

Jack1985 · 02-10-2020 12:15am

Tenger wrote: »

I agreed with the idea of personal responsibility and protecting themselves.

However the same people who you may want to “treat as an adult” are incapable of doing so. A friend is EI ground staff, about 3 weeks she told me about boarding a flight to Greece. EI had to deny boarding to 30 passengers because they had not followed the required steps expected by the Greek Govt. All arrivals had to download an app, complete the information and have a QR code displayed ont heir phone. 30 people when incapable of doing so and were angry at the boarding gate staff for their own failure to “act like adults”

That's a token case of which there are many similar stories in relation to entering Greece across the continent. They failed in the above circumstance to have a QR code to enter and as a consequence couldn't travel thus preventing them eroding the responsibility required to enter Greece...

I'm not sure the above example should then form a basis from diverging on how we deal with this virus as individuals - We can only control it down to individual decisions and with adults being responsible.

We need to be supporting examples such as the COVID-19 app by the HSE being linked to those in Germany and Italy as initial candidates to link up exposure and location data which is a clear demonstration of innovation in dealing with this for years to come.

Tenzor07 · 02-10-2020 5:32pm

Inquitus wrote: »

Travel is unsafe and it worked out real well for the UK with Greece, Portugal and Spain.

Life is unsafe, ever since we were all born we are dying, and no one will make it out alive! No matter what you do, so get on with living!

WishUWereHere · 03-10-2020 6:19am

Blut2 wrote: »

Thats shocking. I'd wonder how long can airlines keep running flights at those sorts of numbers, by the sounds of things European governments are already starting to batten down the hatches for 6 more months of lockdowns now. We must be facing into a winter/spring of mass flight cancellations at some stage soon.

I was out at St. Margaret’s yesterday. Saw both SAS & TAP taking off. Don’t know where the SAS was heading for but I would assume TAP was either Lisbon or Porto. Wonder what the load factors would be especially as Portugal isn’t on Ireland’s safe list, which is a pity as sure could use a weekend there.

smurfjed · 03-10-2020 6:54am

circular flexing wrote: »

Is it possible that people just don't want to travel or can't travel because of COVID-19? I'm firmly in the don't want to travel camp.

I have travelled about a dozen times since march on one particular route, i would generally find that the aircraft was empty in all classes, but now that the travel restrictions on this route are gone, we are finding it more difficult to get seats as the flights are full. (Not in Europe)

smurfjed · 03-10-2020 6:56am

which is a pity as sure could use a weekend there.

What’s stopping you? In the Ryanair court case, the government admitted that there is no law against you traveling, just a recommendation for when you return.

Covid-19; Impact on the aviation industry

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