Covid-19; Impact on the aviation industry

Locker10a

smurfjed wrote: »

What’s stopping you? In the Ryanair court case, the government admitted that there is no law against you traveling, just a recommendation for when you return.

There’s more to it than the government regulations or “recommendations” (isn’t there talk of introducing fines for those who fail to self isolate) there’s also the social pressure, one can’t be seen to disobey the rules/restrictions, those who would ignore this wouldn’t be viewed highly by their peers/colleagues/family/neighbors, so it’s just not worth it.

Captain_Crash

Locker10a wrote: »

There’s more to it than the government regulations or “recommendations” (isn’t there talk of introducing fines for those who fail to self isolate) there’s also the social pressure, one can’t be seen to disobey the rules/restrictions, those who would ignore this wouldn’t be viewed highly by their peers/colleagues/family/neighbors, so it’s just not worth it.

Now that the high court has agreed that the travel advice is just that, advice. I don’t think they could issue fines! Especially considering they based their entire defence on the basis of the restrictions surrounding travel and isolation as being voluntary! (If your regering to isolating after a positive test.. that’s a different matter so couldn’t comment)

Regarding how people would view someone who has travelled, I can only speak for my own social circle and multiple colleagues and friends have been away in the past few weeks and frankly, no one cares... I’ll likely get shouted down from some but that’s the reality of things for a lot of people!

Chris_5339762

Locker10a wrote: »

There’s more to it than the government regulations or “recommendations” (isn’t there talk of introducing fines for those who fail to self isolate) there’s also the social pressure, one can’t be seen to disobey the rules/restrictions, those who would ignore this wouldn’t be viewed highly by their peers/colleagues/family/neighbors, so it’s just not worth it.

Add to that employer rules, such as the public service having to tell their bosses about all travel abroad, and being forced to take 14 days worth of leave (or unpaid) after returning from a non Green List.



Its in the HSE regs, is utterly unenforcable but imagine your standing in the company if you actually went and complained.

Noxegon

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Add to that employer rules, such as the public service having to tell their bosses about all travel abroad

I'm not at all convinced that an employer has the right to demand that information.

That would represent an interesting legal test case.

Irish Steve

Noxegon wrote: »

I'm not at all convinced that an employer has the right to demand that information.

That would represent an interesting legal test case.

Depending on the country and the employer, the rules can be very much more draconian, at one time, in the UK, if you had been required to sign the official secrets act, you also then were obliged to get permission from the employer before travelling outside the UK, even for holidays within Europe.

Given that much Irish Legislation is a direct lift of UK legislation, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the same sorts of requirements are part of State and semi state employment contracts.

mikel97

WishUWereHere wrote: »

which is a pity as sure could use a weekend there.

Go. Get away.
Ive done more weekend trips now than ever before.Cheap, Cheerful and no qs Just take the usual precautions.
Sas would be Stockholm or Kopenhavn. Both great citys

Inquitus

mikel97 wrote: »

Go. Get away.
Ive done more weekend trips now than ever before.Cheap, Cheerful and no qs Just take the usual precautions.
Sas would be Stockholm or Kopenhavn. Both great citys

What's the occupancy been like on the flights, my Brother has flown a few times and seen everything from fairly empty to near full, more of the former than the latter mind.

Blut2

Locker10a wrote: »

There’s more to it than the government regulations or “recommendations” (isn’t there talk of introducing fines for those who fail to self isolate) there’s also the social pressure, one can’t be seen to disobey the rules/restrictions, those who would ignore this wouldn’t be viewed highly by their peers/colleagues/family/neighbors, so it’s just not worth it.

I've traveled multiple times this summer. Its honestly been the best summer of travel for me ever - insanely cheap flights, empty tourist destinations/attractions, very relaxed flights with loads of empty seats, no queues at airports for security/immigration, and huge discounts on accommodation wherever we've been. I can only describe it as VIP travel.

Its been absolutely fantastic, and I'd recommend it to anyone. Especially coming into winter now - no point in staying in Ireland locked down when you can fly off somewhere sunnier and more relaxed.

Theres really nothing to it - most people really won't judge you. And even if you're worried about it you can just not tell anyone who would, or lie and say you're staycationing - how are they to know?

Tenzor07

Travel this summer has been weird, empty airports, flights, lack of tourists in most places...

On the other hand it's been great! Cheap flights, rows of seats to yourself is almost like flying by private jet! Dublin airport security takes a few minutes..

I've been to Berlin, Bruges, Brussels, Edinburgh, Rhodes, Crete, Corfu, Malta in the past couple of months... So cheap and quick...

Ryanair have been great, flights depart on or before time and get into Dublin a lot earlier than they should, no air traffic congestion I guess, and lighter aircraft so they take off and land much easier...

WishUWereHere

Blut2 wrote: »

I've traveled multiple times this summer. Its honestly been the best summer of travel for me ever - insanely cheap flights, empty tourist destinations/attractions, very relaxed flights with loads of empty seats, no queues at airports for security/immigration, and huge discounts on accommodation wherever we've been. I can only describe it as VIP travel.

Its been absolutely fantastic, and I'd recommend it to anyone. Especially coming into winter now - no point in staying in Ireland locked down when you can fly off somewhere sunnier and more relaxed.

Theres really nothing to it - most people really won't judge you. And even if you're worried about it you can just not tell anyone who would, or lie and say you're staycationing - how are they to know?

I’m sorry but I cannot agree with your last paragraph. Detection numbers are sky rocketing & if that attitude was adopted by more travellers we have no chance of beating this damn virus.

HTCOne

WishUWereHere wrote: »

I’m sorry but I cannot agree with your last paragraph. Detection numbers are sky rocketing & if that attitude was adopted by more travellers we have no chance of beating this damn virus.

Skyrocketing domestically. As has already been pointed out, travel has nothing to do with the mess we are in now; it is people, particularly young people not following the rules, having house parties, meeting up with multiple friends from multiple households in social settings and not observing 2 meter distancing etc. The ECDC and WHO are unequivocal: International travel restrictions do not work and are utterly pointless. I know we all like to think we are experts on virus transmission now, but those two organisations actually are. I’ll listen to them before I listen to joe public on how we should be travelling.

Every time we put on or take off a mask without washing our hands both before and after for example, we are putting the community at greater risk than anyone who chooses to travel.

Credit Checker Moose

It is time that the tame media stop beating the traveller up.

Blut2

WishUWereHere wrote: »

I’m sorry but I cannot agree with your last paragraph. Detection numbers are sky rocketing & if that attitude was adopted by more travellers we have no chance of beating this damn virus.

A minuscule number of cases (the last figure I saw was 2%~) in Ireland in the past month have been travel related. Travel has had nothing to do with the spike in cases here.

As HTC mentions, the ECDC and WHO are both very clear on this: international travel restrictions do not prevent the spread of the disease once its in the community. I'll trust them as having some expertise on the matter.

There are also many, many places in the world you can fly to tomorrow that have much lower infection rates than Ireland (in particular Dublin) currently. If you go there for 2 weeks and come back you're at significantly less risk of catching/spreading the virus in your community than you are by staying here, in a comparatively high risk environment.

Jack1985

Blut2 wrote: »

...There are also many, many places in the world you can fly to tomorrow that have much lower infection rates than Ireland (in particular Dublin) currently. If you go there for 2 weeks and come back you're at significantly less risk of catching/spreading the virus in your community than you are by staying here, in a comparatively high risk environment.

This can't be stated enough. You are less of a risk to your community by travelling to countries with lower levels of infection than someone walking around Dublin right now or many parts of this country.

The locked up approach has done us wonders by listening to the same experts bang on the same lines and driving for zero covid. :rolleyes:

Tenzor07

"Britain's Busiest Airport: Heathrow" on VM2 now..

Sad to see it, it's like looking into a past we may never see again for another 5 years...

I think Heathrow is as busy now as a small regional airport in the U.S somewhere...

NH2013

WishUWereHere wrote: »

I’m sorry but I cannot agree with your last paragraph. Detection numbers are sky rocketing & if that attitude was adopted by more travellers we have no chance of beating this damn virus.

I posted this elsewhere a couple days ago but,

USA cases per 100k per 7 days is currently at 90, Ireland is at 51, they're not even at twice the incidence, and if you look at certain states with large Irish populations such as the following, you'll even see you're at less risk of having these people over than our fellow Irish residents;

NY @ 33 is significantly less likely there that someone from their has COVID than someone from Ireland https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...rus-cases.html

Massachusetts @ 52 is practically of equal risk
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...rus-cases.html

California @ 58 is only slightly worse than we are, effectively equal risk
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...rus-cases.html



So if you're happy for your neighbour to visit at Christmas, or son, daughter, brother or sister to visit over christmas, then logically looking at this, you should be happy that the risk is effectively equal or there abouts.


This has little to do with travel and much more to do with the behaviour of people, much easier to pick up Covid in Ireland going out socialising than it is to pick it up in the USA but keeping to yourself, travel doesn't spread this, personal behaviours do.

Chris_5339762

Just bear in mind that if you're in Ireland, you're likely going out say once a week for food, and staying at home to eat or being at work.

On holiday, you're breakfasting in a hotel/restaurant every morning, you're doing the same for lunch and the same for dinner. You're in higher risk areas substantially more. Whilst it does depend partly on cases per 100,000, its not the whole picture.

I'd travel to somewhere with lower numbers but the public service don't allow you to, and also living with nervous vulnerable parents means it can't happen.

Inquitus

NH2013 wrote: »

I posted this elsewhere a couple days ago but,

USA cases per 100k per 7 days is currently at 90, Ireland is at 51, they're not even at twice the incidence, and if you look at certain states with large Irish populations such as the following, you'll even see you're at less risk of having these people over than our fellow Irish residents;

NY @ 33 is significantly less likely there that someone from their has COVID than someone from Ireland https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...rus-cases.html

Massachusetts @ 52 is practically of equal risk
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...rus-cases.html

California @ 58 is only slightly worse than we are, effectively equal risk
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...rus-cases.html



So if you're happy for your neighbour to visit at Christmas, or son, daughter, brother or sister to visit over christmas, then logically looking at this, you should be happy that the risk is effectively equal or there abouts.


This has little to do with travel and much more to do with the behaviour of people, much easier to pick up Covid in Ireland going out socialising than it is to pick it up in the USA but keeping to yourself, travel doesn't spread this, personal behaviours do.

Ireland is over 100 per 100k as a 14 day average, certainly worse if you take a 7 day average as cases have increased all week. We are also over a 3% positivity rate, so any dreams of EU regulations opening the skies up are pie in the sky for now.

Meanwhile, Ireland's 14-day incidence rate of Covid-19 has increased to 100.9. This is the number of cases of the virus per 100,000 of the population.

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/1003/1169176-covid-data-figures-ireland/

Captain_Crash

Inquitus wrote: »

so any dreams of EU regulations opening the skies up are pie in the sky for now.

Considering the High Court ruled on Friday that the travel restrictions I.e. green list, and the requirement to quarantine on arrival back is merely advice and not mandatory, I’d suggest the skies are already open!

HTCOne

Inquitus wrote: »

Ireland is over 100 per 100k as a 14 day average, certainly worse if you take a 7 day average as cases have increased all week. We are also over a 3% positivity rate, so any dreams of EU regulations opening the skies up are pie in the sky for now.



https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/1003/1169176-covid-data-figures-ireland/

Thus proving the World Health Organistation and European Center for Disease Control correct. Ireland has the most severe travel restrictions of any country in Europe, and it made no difference. We are riddled, and travel was not a factor. It is a red herring.

PommieBast

Captain_Crash wrote: »

Considering the High Court ruled on Friday that the travel restrictions I.e. green list, and the requirement to quarantine on arrival back is merely advice and not mandatory, I’d suggest the skies are already open!

Got a reference link? Want to read the judgement itself.


This is gonna come home to roost on the administration big-time. I suspect it being framed as "advice" is purely to avoid big compensation payouts.

Inquitus

Captain_Crash wrote: »

Considering the High Court ruled on Friday that the travel restrictions I.e. green list, and the requirement to quarantine on arrival back is merely advice and not mandatory, I’d suggest the skies are already open!

We are supposed to join the EU rules on the 13th Oct or thereabouts, anyone red like we currently are, will require a negative PCR test within a given timeframe prior to travel in order to be admitted to the destination EU country, they cost around €200 a pop and have to be done privately, that's gonna kybosh travel for alot of people.

Captain_Crash

PommieBast wrote: »

Got a reference link? Want to read the judgement itself.


This is gonna come home to roost on the administration big-time. I suspect it being framed as "advice" is purely to avoid big compensation payouts.

Here, https://www.courts.ie/viewer/pdf/4c363613-d8d4-4813-91ff-ea95c099d390/2020_IEHC_461.pdf/pdf#view=fitH

Tenzor07

Sleepy Eamon says the Government will have a plan!

https://www.thejournal.ie/travel-plans-publish-airplanes-eamon-ryan-5223251-Oct2020/

Any testing at airports should be completely free, and with fast testing before departure with a printout/barcode issued for the results before you board, meaning you can enter any EU country... only way forward...

IngazZagni

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Sleepy Eamon says the Government will have a plan!

https://www.thejournal.ie/travel-plans-publish-airplanes-eamon-ryan-5223251-Oct2020/

Any testing at airports should be completely free, and with fast testing before departure with a printout/barcode issued for the results before you board, meaning you can enter any EU country... only way forward...

Look it sounds good in theory but with covid tests costing around €100 a pop the bill would be in the Millions of euro after only a day or 2 perhaps. I’m not sure that’s a wise use of borrowed money.

Also what will be the restrictions be for us Irish on the other side if we are a red list Country which it looks like we could be initially? Will the passenger pay on the other side? Will there be a quarantine until a negative result? Who will pay if you are positive and are forced to quarantine abroad for 2 weeks etc?

Tenzor07

IngazZagni wrote: »

Look it sounds good in theory but with covid tests costing around €100 a pop the bill would be in the Millions of euro after only a day or 2 perhaps. I’m not sure that’s a wise use of borrowed money.
Also what will be the restrictions be for us Irish on the other side if we are a red list Country which it looks like we could be initially? Will the passenger pay on the other side? Will there be a quarantine until a negative result? Who will pay if you are positive and are forced to quarantine abroad for 2 weeks etc?

You have to see the wider picture here, it may cost someone €100 to go to a clinic to be tested, but what the Governments pay would be far far less, and the benefits of restarting travel and tourism will easily pay for it.
No borrowed money needed, tourists and business people buy things and pay taxes on them. No tourists or businesspeople, no tax no spending, borrowing for years to come..

The alternative? Don't test, keep up stupid 14 day isolation requirements, tourism is dead along with aviation and millions of jobs lost.

In Greece if you test positive you're a guest of the government then, same in Cyprus. So it's worth Governments opening up to tourism again by testing.

PommieBast

Tenzor07 wrote: »

You have to see the wider picture here, it may cost someone €100 to go to a clinic to be tested, but what the Governments pay would be far far less

Government so far has typically paid €98 per test. https://www.thejournal.ie/covid-testing-costs-5163012-Jul2020

California Dreamer

Just think what €98 could get you.....you know....a flight.....like what this thread is suppose to be about!?!

3xh

PommieBast wrote: »

Government so far has typically paid €98 per test. https://www.thejournal.ie/covid-testing-costs-5163012-Jul2020

If not by the implementation of the EU traffic light system, then shortly after I suspect they will use the €5 20 minute saliva test and accept the higher fallibility rate.

Irish Steve

Given where NEPHET are looking to go, it's moot, in that no one will be going outside 5Km for the next month if their plan is agreed, though I can see some significant pushback from TD's when they start to discuss it in detail.

The worry is that the number of occupied hospital beds is going stratospheric, and we're not really in to the worst that could be happening.