How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

markodaly wrote: »

I don't like people posting falsehoods under some moral or appeal to authority.
If Teachers and Educators posting untruths and incorrect facts on this thread doesn't bother you, maybe it should.

Why do you give these people a free pass, when they post incorrect facts?

No I don't give them a free pass and neither do people who have an axe to grind about teachers get one.

Genereally those are the people who cannot make a point about teachers without mentioning the following cliches, teachers sitting back over the summer, teachers have been off for six months, teacher pay, teacher holidays, teachers are cowards/lazy and teachers don't like to be corrected. People who cannot seem to understand that NPhET and Dept of Health closed the schools.
These people are generally asses and need to get a life. Like teachers they had the option to choose a career or not and have to live with their decisions. Using this thread to have a go at teachers in passing remarks or full on rants just isn't cool.

Each job has pros and cons and you have no idea obviously what teaching involves so no you don't get a pass.

When is comes to conversations teachers like others do not mind being wrong or corrected when as in other conversations it is done nicely without the above thrown in for good measure. I use being wrong as an important teaching tool for children as being wrong is ok. It is what you do with being incorrect is the issue.


The person who said the 2.5 metre was wrong, or at least I have not seen this as a usual measure.

It was originally 2 metres advocated by the WHO who a few months in did a study and reduced the disctance to 1 metre.

2 metres has been advocated by the CDC
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/social-distancing.html
which was followed by HSE hence all the lovely signs around the country for 2 metres.
The Centre for Evidence based medicine got on board too with 2 metres
https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/what-is-the-evidence-to-support-the-2-metre-social-distancing-rule-to-reduce-covid-19-transmission/

There are a few theories re distancing and the WHO have moved between 1metre and 2 metre distancing throughout this pandemic..

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7215485/
There have been arguments throughout this that actually the virus can travel up to 28 feet when sneezing but no one really took that up as that would be impossible to live by.

The WHO promoted the 2 metre distance as it was manageable and then decreased it to 1 metre following a study and this allowed more businesses to open.

There is also the fact that it can live on surfaces which makes the 2mt thing a mute point, if you are touching surfaces it is on.

The WHO did their own study and decreased from 2 metres to 1 metre but a lot of countries stuck with the 2 metres, in some place 1.5 metres has also been suggested as manageable.

Lets put it this way it was a droplet infection and following study is increasingly recognised as an airborne virus(or droplet infection in school guidelines) so maintain as much distance as possible and maintain the usual precautions. The 1 metre thing is handy for when maintaing the 2 metre social distance is unable to be maintained like school guidelines where the kids are 40 cm apart, because 40 is the new 100.

Deleted User wrote: »

Reduces chances of flu spreading in the population. It will be interesting however when a proportion develop a mild fever within a coupe of days of the jab

What rationale could you have for not wanting a flu jab for your children? Will you get a covid jab for them when available?

Proper control of our borders reduces the spread if we're importing the flu were importing Covid it's that simple.
Australia had 229 recorded cases of the flu this april compared to 18,705 in April 2019.
I'll add to that if anyone believes the measures will work for reopening schools then those measures will work just as well for stopping the spread of the Flu.

The flu vaccine has never been mandatory for health care workers and they are dealing with the sickest in society. Mandatory for 2-12yr old is a step too far it means the government have no faith in the plans for schools.
Teachers need to throw this up to the government and ask why they think schools are such a risk for flu but not covid.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Proper control of our borders reduces the spread if we're importing the flu were importing Covid it's that simple.
Australia had 229 recorded cases of the flu this april compared to 18,705 in April 2019.
I'll add to that if anyone believes the measures will work for reopening schools then those measures will work just as well for stopping the spread of the Flu.

The flu vaccine has never been mandatory for health care workers and they are dealing with the sickest in society. Mandatory for 2-12yr old is a step too far it means the government have no faith in the plans for schools.
Teachers need to throw this up to the government and ask why they think schools are such a risk for flu but not covid.

There were studies way back in March which suggested the spread might be delayed by at most three weeks in this scenario. It's far less about travel and more about the clustering nature of the virus that spreads it.

is_that_so wrote: »

There were studies way back in March which suggested the spread might be delayed by at most three weeks in this scenario. It's far less about travel and more about the clustering nature of the virus that spreads it.

The flu is imported every year that is a fact. If we're bringing in the flu were bringing in covid, both should be tested for.

is_that_so wrote: »

We have also have a flu' vaccine every year so that would be a waste of resources. COVID-19 will, in time, become less of a concern, whether through treatments, vaccines, higher levels of immunity to it or its own mutations.

How is it a waste of resources?

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Since when do healthy children need the Flu vaccine..


Car-park clinics may have to be set up to help GPs cope with the rollout of the flu vaccine to all primary school pupils and younger children this autumn.

For the first time, 750,000 children aged two to 12 years will receive the flu vaccine for free. The move comes amid fears that an outbreak could wreak havoc as hospitals also deal with the spread of Covid-19.
https://m.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/car-park-clinics-may-be-needed-as-flu-vaccination-to-be-free-for-750000-children-this-autumn-39471970.html

Will teachers please call an end to this madness, I do not want to start flu jabs on my young children.
Is there anything the government won't do to try and cover up their years of making a complete mess of the health system.

Are you an antivax nut or something?

ELM327 wrote: »

Are you an antivax nut or something?

No but I don't accept it's the only show in town, if we're importing the flu were importing Covid, if the schools aren't stopping the spread of the flu they can't stop covid.

markodaly wrote: »

I don't like people posting falsehoods under some moral or appeal to authority.
If Teachers and Educators posting untruths and incorrect facts on this thread doesn't bother you, maybe it should.

Why do you give these people a free pass, when they post incorrect facts?

except the guy you accused of posting untruths doesn't appear to be a teacher

without doing an audit of the entire thread I must say I havent noticed much untruths from posters that are identifying as teachers

sort of blows a big hole in your argument

I have noticed however you can be selective with your use of data, ignoree valid counter points if they dont suit your narrative and seeing as you mentioned sticking oars in ...you seem to almost never fail to to find a way to make any problems/failings a way to criticise teachers and make it their fault etc etc....thats the one oar you seem to have in your boat which is why it keeps going round in circles in this thread

you imo are one of the most duplicitous posters on this thread ...

but thats just like my opinion man:)

markodaly wrote: »

Where are you getting that prediction from? A gut feeling from a previously held belief?



The Irish government is not developing its own Vaccine, so how can it put its eggs into that basket?

Online and remote learning can of course be something be developed and fleshed out, but and it is a big BUT... anytime any changes to teaching methods or the curriculum is mentioned, the ASTI and TUI are always very very quick to rubbish the idea. The Unions like to think they are actually in charge some of the times and stick their oar in far too many times, this leads to deadlock and inertia, not much changes then because battle lines are drawn. Sure, we all saw the big deal about the new JC marking arrangements...
Teachers HATE change. Full Stop!

Anyway, pure online and remote learning is a no-no. I have already posted a link from the Bookings Institute showing the marked decline in reading and math for students in the lower socio-economic strata of society. Another year of 'remote' learning you may as well consign a generation of these children to a life of more poverty, crime and inequality, but someone please think about the teachers!!



It is not a fact, it is mere speculation. You do not know if this will happen or not.

In my opinion, nation-wide, schools are not going to close again, nor should they. If there is a cluster, in A school, that school will close. If a city or county has a large uptick in cases, that warrents a complete lockdown, the county/town/city schools may close, but that will be it.

This is established best practice elsewhere, and it will be here. Ireland is not special, teachers in Ireland are certainly not special. Just get back to work, do your job to the best of your ability and leave the scaremongering to people in the media and Joe Duffy.

I never suggested the Irish government is developing a vaccine but as with many nations they are relying on it coming from somewhere else.

I think you make some valid points about teacher's unions and the difficulty to enforce change and teachers themselves are resistant to that in general because it means more work and training. I don't know if teachers would be resistant to online teaching if the same material was being covered and resources were made available but i doubt it.

I'm not in Ireland and it doesn't really matter to me if schools go back or not, but it's obvious from other countries (that have adopted stricter measures than Ireland) that reopening schools leads to a surge in community cases. We had it here in HK when we were at zero cases for months before schools reopened and they had to close after 5 weeks of being back. Hence they are resuming in September with online classes.

Of course every school may not end up having clusters (although i think its likely), but once it spreads into the community when your kids bring it home, and you bring it to work etc, then there will have to be a lockdown for hospitals to cope. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to envisage that.

But you carry on sticking your head in the sand along with the government who also hopes for the best instead of preparing for the worst, irregardless of what the experts are saying.

Enjoy your few weeks without the kids in September.

irishblessing wrote: »

Umm....since always. So they remain healthy, and in turn the family they could potentially spread it to? Everyone in my family gets the flu shot, every year.

My 3 kids were all breastfed, they are never sick even when a lot of their friends are. I could be wrong but I thought one of the benefit is their mum passes them on antibodies.
I think their immune systems are healthy, I really don't want to start vaccinating them regularly so young.
It's only the older people get it in my family not like yours where it's everybody, I think we should be concentrating on, the old, vunrable and health care workers. Starting this in 2-12yrs olds isn't sitting well with me, were blaming kids for killing the old people again and overwhelming our hospitals.

Boggles wrote: »

Yeah, I don't buy that, Luke is guessing, like everyone else, I have yet to see a compelling biological explanation as to why humans of a certain age cannot spread Covid 19.

We will know for sure soon enough though.

But it's not just about schools, it's everything that goes with them, starting this week and next, a significant portion of the populous will be adding millions of movements and interactions daily that simply haven't existed since early March.

I will be shocked if we are not fundamentally rethinking our approach to schools come mid November.

He's more of an expert than I am anyway given that he is Professor O Neill. It's not just him either that's sating it, I don't think it's guesswork regarding the Berlin schools, it seems to have been well proven. And the reason in general being that adults have far more interactions generally than children do, they are also typically in more environments eg from school to supermarket to getting petrol etc, all places where they are touching stuff and speaking to people. Anyway I think it needs saying because imo it would be natural for teachers who are friends with each other to be more relaxed and off their guard with each other and no harm in a little reminder that they shouldn't.

amacca wrote: »

I dont have anything against the flu vaccine...my elderly parents get it every year and it seems to work for them ...but up till now it hasn't been recommended that normal healthy teenagers get it afaik

"Normal Healthy Teenagers" get and transmit the flu. Teenagers are twice as likely to get the flu than people that are over 65, nearly 3 times more likely for infants.

The Flu vaccine is recommend for everyone, it's safe.

It's not a jab just for "elderly people"

amacca wrote: »

maybe it is kneejerk, speaks to a worrying lack of forward planning and he has a point

The HSE have been banging on about the importance of the Flu vaccine especially this year since March.

kowloonkev wrote: »

I never suggested the Irish government is developing a vaccine but as with many nations they are relying on it coming from somewhere else.

I think you make some valid points about teacher's unions and the difficulty to enforce change and teachers themselves are resistant to that in general because it means more work and training. I don't know if teachers would be resistant to online teaching if the same material was being covered and resources were made available but i doubt it.
.

I think this is a narrow viewpoint from yourself and Mark O D, maybe related to your experience of teachers during your schooldays, maybe not. Teachers are no better and no worse than other careers re change and for the most part encourage it. We have change happening everyday in our jobs and just because it is not broadcast on the 6 o' clock news does not mean it doesn't happen. I worked in a variety of careers private and public, and the groans met with new changes or policies echoes in both.

Most of the staff I teach with are doing degrees or post grad degrees and some of them relate to teaching, some don't. Most were carrying out CPD over the summer holidays to upskill in different areas like ICT in case we have another online scenario.

Blanket statement's like M O' D's "teachers HATE change" and sarcastic " someone please think of the teachers" is just farcical and along with his other proclamations about teachers expose what he is really here for. To agree with that is very shortsighted and could show you to be of a similar vein.

As for the unions well we find them most of the time as useful as a chocolate teapot.