How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

meeeeh

FishOnABike wrote: »

Recent extensive studies of over 60,000 contacts in South Korea have shown over 10s are as likely to catch and transmit CoViD-19 as adults, if not more likely.¹

And the mortality rate among children? Yes kids catch and transmit the disease but they are at a low risk to die from it. UN put out a warning that decades of progress could be lost and inequality increased if kids can't get back to school. That's a lot more real risk to kids.

Boggles

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

What action do you think they should take?

I doesn't really matter what I think.

I was merely pointing out your misunderstanding of what they were actually doing.

jrosen

Millem wrote: »

They are better holding off if they can get another ecce year.
My son is going into senior infants and I have heard of 2 kids in his year who’s parents have asked to repeat JI. They would be one of the youngest in the year as they didn’t take the second year of ecce. The school have said no!

How would they get another ECCE year? Surely all new children are enrolled and due to start in September. I would think it highly unlikely they will be able to go back to their preschools and do another year.

Alrigghtythen

Boggles wrote: »

I doesn't really matter what I think.

I was merely pointing out your misunderstanding of what they were actually doing.

Contract tracing is fairly standard these days.

Sammy2012

jrosen wrote: »

How would they get another ECCE year? Surely all new children are enrolled and due to start in September. I would think it highly unlikely they will be able to go back to their preschools and do another year.

My daughter is starting school in September but would be entitled to another year of ECCE if we wanted it. They don't apply for funding until Sept and she won't be 5 until January so would be eligible for it this year.

Loafing Oaf

meeeeh wrote: »

And the mortality rate among children? Yes kids catch and transmit the disease but they are at a low risk to die from it.

Do you think many parents would take the attitude that "since my child is extremely unlikely to actually die from Covid-19, I don't need to worry about them catching it."?

Millem

jrosen wrote: »

How would they get another ECCE year? Surely all new children are enrolled and due to start in September. I would think it highly unlikely they will be able to go back to their preschools and do another year.

My youngest son will be doing his ECCE in September. I don’t fill out the forms until then. Now obviously you would need a space in a Montessori too!

jrosen

Millem wrote: »

My youngest son will be doing his ECCE in September. I don’t fill out the forms until then. Now obviously you would need a space in a Montessori too!

But you have enrolled him though? So his name is down and he has a place? Unless kids due to start in September also defer their place there will be no places available for kids to stay back and do another year.

wirelessdude01

FishOnABike wrote: »

I guess that's the one extra teacher per school accounted for. If this is anyway regular they will end up having to spend a signoficant amount of their time supervising those in isolation. Now just to find the spare room (after implementing all that good social distancing) to put them in.

You do know primary schools aren't getting 'one extra teacher'.

jrosen

Sammy2012 wrote: »

My daughter is starting school in September but would be entitled to another year of ECCE if we wanted it. They don't apply for funding until Sept and she won't be 5 until January so would be eligible for it this year.

being eligible does not entitle you to a place. If the pre school is full they cant take her back.

Sammy2012

jrosen wrote: »

being eligible does not entitle you to a place. If the pre school is full they cant take her back.

Well this is true. But having spoken to my playschool and some of friends a lot of children are being pulled for next year. My own playschool is also a creche and one of the workers told me they can't understand why they reopened as they only have between 7 and 10 kids per day. Obviously when ECCE starts back they will be busier but now they are very quiet.

Millem

jrosen wrote: »

being eligible does not entitle you to a place. If the pre school is full they cant take her back.

Yes I know but sure parents have been known to hold onto places and let them go at her last minute. Similar with school places.

meeeeh

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Do you think many parents would take the attitude that "since my child is extremely unlikely to actually die from Covid-19, I don't need to worry about them catching it."?

I'm also worried about my kids being hit by a car and that doesn't stop me letting and encourage them to cycle. I also worry they could drown but it doesn't stop me encouraging them to learn to swim. What I worry is different to me looking at statistics and making informed and rational decision what is more beneficial for them.

I can keep them away from their peers, keep them at home from normal social interaction or I can make sure that they are not unnecessarily reckless and let them go to school which is important for their social and educational development.

meeeeh

Sammy2012 wrote: »

Well this is true. But having spoken to my playschool and some of friends a lot of children are being pulled for next year. My own playschool is also a creche and one of the workers told me they can't understand why they reopened as they only have between 7 and 10 kids per day. Obviously when ECCE starts back they will be busier but now they are very quiet.

Paying for creche places in summer if parents are working from home is different to availing of free preschool when you can.

Boggles

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Contract tracing is fairly standard these days.

As is cleaning, but you only mentioned one of them in your post.

meeeeh

Boggles wrote: »

As is cleaning, but you only mentioned one of them in your post.

Schools don't need to be closed for contact tracing.

Queried

FishOnABike wrote: »

I can't believe people still believe this. It was never more than wishful thinking at best, deliberate misinformation at worst.

Recent extensive studies of over 60,000 contacts in South Korea have shown over 10s are as likely to catch and transmit CoViD-19 as adults, if not more likely.¹

The outbreak in a Georgia,US camp² which infected 260 children and teens shows younger children to actually be at more likely to catch CoViD-19 than older children.



¹ https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/18/health/coronavirus-children-schools.html
² https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6931e1.htm

Hi FishOnABike,

I should have been more clear; I meant low risk in terms of becoming seriously ill. I think that this will change the outlook of a lot of parents and guardians, unfortunately. Many would likely be much more tempted to brush symptoms off if they believe that their child is highly unlikely to become very unwell. Not all of course, but it is a concern.

am_zarathustra

Queried wrote: »

Hi FishOnABike,

I should have been more clear; I meant low risk in terms of becoming seriously ill. I think that this will change the outlook of a lot of parents and guardians, unfortunately. Many would likely be much more tempted to brush symptoms off if they believe that their child is highly unlikely to become very unwell. Not all of course, but it is a concern.

Which will lead to increased danger to the teacher. I can't see how any primary school teacher over 55/60 would feel safe with the current plan. I'm genuinely concern we are going to see huge levels of retirement in October and we simply do not have the staff to deal with this. A plan needs to be in place before then. Beyond everything else I know the day to day chaos in my school will absolutely be caused by lack of supervision and no substitutes.

downthemiddle

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Which will lead to increased danger to the teacher. I can't see how any primary school teacher over 55/60 would feel safe with the current plan. I'm genuinely concern we are going to see huge levels of retirement in October and we simply do not have the staff to deal with this. A plan needs to be in place before then. Beyond everything else I know the day to day chaos in my school will absolutely be caused by lack of supervision and no substitutes.

There are definitely teachers who have decided to call it a day who would have stayed on if they were comfortable with the plan.
Final year students in college will be available for subbing is my understanding. However there will still be a substantial shortage of available subs. There may be a situation that arises where schools will have no option but to ask a class to stay at home in the short term as no cover can be arranged for them.

grind gremlin

I’ve just realised another potential challenge when we reopen in September. Wasps. Anyone who teaches knows how a class lose their mind when one flies into the room. Social distancing goes out the window when one of these bad boys enters the room. You could have the best lesson in the world planned and one of these can buzz in and mayhem ensues.
With every door and window open it will be madness.

HerrKuehn

grind gremlin wrote: »

I’ve just realised another potential challenge when we reopen in September. Wasps. Anyone who teaches knows how a class lose their mind when one flies into the room. Social distancing goes out the window when one of these bad boys enters the room. You could have the best lesson in the world planned and one of these can buzz in and mayhem ensues.
With every door and window open it will be madness.

Take a look at the DES guidelines for reopening, they cover wasps flying into the classroom. It was one of the first things agreed on.

Blondini

meeeeh wrote: »

I'm also worried about my kids being hit by a car and that doesn't stop me letting and encourage them to cycle. I also worry they could drown but it doesn't stop me encouraging them to learn to swim. What I worry is different to me looking at statistics and making informed and rational decision what is more beneficial for them.

I can keep them away from their peers, keep them at home from normal social interaction or I can make sure that they are not unnecessarily reckless and let them go to school which is important for their social and educational development.

Why do you and others keep repeating yourselves? Yes, schools are opening. Yes you are sending your children in. Are you trying to convince yourself by repeating yourself?

You feel it's good enough for your children. We get it.

It's not good enough for mine.

s1ippy

https://www.forbes.com/sites/williamhaseltine/2020/07/31/new-evidence-suggests-young-children-spread-covid-19-more-efficiently-than-adults/#4b6f908919fd
Anyone with children in school this year is putting their child, themselves and their family at risk.

https://www.thejournal.ie//effective-testing-tracing-schools-5166779-Aug2020/?section=comment&cb=comment_deeplink#comment
Apparently to the journal, 12 students is a wide enough sample size. I have deja vu...

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-schools-covid-19-transmission-5110842-May2020/
It's almost like they don't want to acknowledge the actual data as it's coming out and want to ignore the science that doesn't suit them. What agenda could they possibly have for that?

The lancet actually turns that argument about the cost benefit of schools reopening if they're hotbeds of transmission on its head in the second paragraph of this report:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(20)30249-2/fulltext

It really comes down to, who can organise for the children to not be in school and not suffer huge financial losses as a result. Those who can't will be the ones down the line who will likely suffer, medically or financially. It will disproportionately be poor people. Oh and teachers (also poor people, in many instances).

meeeeh

s1ippy wrote: »

https://www.forbes.com/sites/williamhaseltine/2020/07/31/new-evidence-suggests-young-children-spread-covid-19-more-efficiently-than-adults/#4b6f908919fd
Anyone with children in school this year is putting their child, themselves and their family at risk.

Actually the author of the article makes the point for moderate to high infection rates.

combat14

any word on pubs opening yet.. or if phase 4 is safe to go ahead

meeeeh

Blondini wrote: »

Why do you and others keep repeating yourselves? Yes, schools are opening. Yes you are sending your children in. Are you trying to convince yourself by repeating yourself?

You feel it's good enough for your children. We get it.

It's not good enough for mine.

The same reason as you telling everyone how you are not sending your kids to school. We get it education of your kids is not important to you but it's not the same for all of us.

(and yes my reply was intentionally as nasty as yours).

Blondini

meeeeh wrote: »

We get it education of your kids is not important to you

I think I might know a leeeeeetle bit more about education than you do :pac:

Listen, I hope everything works out for you and the people you care about.

abacus120

I just got an e-mail from my daughters secondary school,all pupils will be back in school on the 5th of September, all 750 of them,all going in at the same time and finishing at the same time. I am delighted and so is she but i did think times would be staggered,there is only one entrance to the school. No other advice re facemasks etc.

meeeeh

Blondini wrote: »

I think I might know a leeeeeetle bit more about education than you do :pac:

Listen, I hope everything works out for you and the people you care about.

Good for you but I presume you don't expect to be paid for home education of your kids the same as the rest of us are not. Or do you want to be paid for a job you can't do at 100% because you have to home educate your kids.

Sammy2012

abacus120 wrote: »

I just got an e-mail from my daughters secondary school,all pupils will be back in school on the 5th of September, all 750 of them,all going in at the same time and finishing at the same time. I am delighted and so is she but i did think times would be staggered,there is only one entrance to the school. No other advice re facemasks etc.

The 5th is a Saturday

s1ippy

meeeeh wrote: »

Actually the author of the article makes the point for moderate to high infection rates.

Love how that's what you took from the links I posted but have a look at the last Lancet link.

meeeeh wrote: »

Good for you but I presume you don't expect to be paid for home education of your kids the same as the rest of us are not. Or do you want to be paid for a job you can't do at 100% because you have to home educate your kids.

Wow, did your job deduct earnings from you when your children were at home? That's actually discrimination based on family status and you could take a case with the LRC.

abacus120

Sammy2012 wrote: »

The 5th is a Saturday

Apologies all students will be back on the 4th of september

meeeeh

s1ippy wrote: »

Love how that's what you took from the links I posted but have a look at the last Lancet link.


Wow, did your job deduct earnings from you when your children were at home? That's actually discrimination based on family status and you could take a case with the LRC.

No when I was working but then I pay myself even when I'm posting here. However I couldn't do my full time job and full time educate my kids. One of them would have to suffer so I might have to apply to myself for lower working hours.

s1ippy

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/when-covid-subsided-israel-reopened-its-schools-it-didn-t-go-well-1.4321658

They plan on completely overhauling their system, which is basically the same system Irish schools are attempting, because their cases skyrocketed when they reopened. Let me know if it's behind a paywall and anyone needs the text copied here.

wirelessdude01

abacus120 wrote: »

Apologies all students will be back on the 4th of september

What was the original date they were meant to be back?

ldy4mxonucwsq6

abacus120 wrote: »

Apologies all students will be back on the 4th of september

We're back the 1st of September, haven't heard any specifics regarding the new arrangements but only 4 weeks to go so hopefully soon.

niallo27

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Take a look at the DES guidelines for reopening, they cover wasps flying into the classroom. It was one of the first things agreed on.

This made me laugh way more than it should have had.

abacus120

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

What was the original date they were meant to be back?

The 24th of august

wirelessdude01

abacus120 wrote: »

The 24th of august

Any mention if they are going to make up the days?

ldy4mxonucwsq6

niallo27 wrote: »

This made me laugh way more than it should have had.

I heard they designed a poster with pictures and all to show what to do in the event of a wasp/class infringement :pac::pac:

It's not yet known if wasp spray and fly swatters will be covered under the spending budget.

abacus120

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Any mention if they are going to make up the days?

No nothing in the email bar the starting datses for each year
I wouldnt expect they will be making up any time,how would they?

Sammy2012

abacus120 wrote: »

No nothing in the email bar the starting datses for each year
I wouldnt expect they will be making up any time,how would they?

They can shorten the easter holidays by 3 days in the first week if they need too.

beggars_bush

niallo27 wrote: »

This made me laugh way more than it should have had.

You do realise what happens when a wasp flies into a room with 30 children?

the corpo

Said this on the main thread but prob more relevant here.

Heard Mike Ryan of the WHO on RTE this morning stating that children aged 10+ are as significant a risk of spreading as adults. I may have missed it but I don't think I've heard the WHO agree with this position before. He also sounded pretty concerned about long term health effects on children that hadn't seemingly gotten sick, mentioned hearts.

So, again, very concerned the Department aren't paying attention to current science and basing their decisions on all the older evidence, and our schools will be at risk from the slow position shifting of the WHO and NPHET.

Loafing Oaf

the corpo wrote: »

So, again, very concerned the Department aren't paying attention to current science and basing their decisions on all the older evidence, and our schools will be at risk from the slow position shifting of the WHO and NPHET.

Are you saying they shouldn't be reopening schools at all in light of current science?

HerrKuehn

the corpo wrote: »

Said this on the main thread but prob more relevant here.

Heard Mike Ryan of the WHO on RTE this morning stating that children aged 10+ are as significant a risk of spreading as adults. I may have missed it but I don't think I've heard the WHO agree with this position before. He also sounded pretty concerned about long term health effects on children that hadn't seemingly gotten sick, mentioned hearts.

So, again, very concerned the Department aren't paying attention to current science and basing their decisions on all the older evidence, and our schools will be at risk from the slow position shifting of the WHO and NPHET.

if only the WHO and NPHET had a school teacher or an electrician to interpret the science for them.

Charles Babbage

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/04/world/middleeast/coronavirus-israel-schools-reopen.html

Experience in Israel where one school was a focus of a large cluster

"The lesson, experts say, is that even communities that have gotten the spread of the virus under control need to take strict precautions when reopening schools. Smaller classes, mask wearing, keeping desks six feet apart and providing adequate ventilation, they say, are likely to be crucial until a vaccine is available."

the corpo

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Are you saying they shouldn't be reopening schools at all in light of current science?

I think a full re-opening with full attendance is madness, with our class sizes and poor infrastructure. Virtually nowhere else has attempted this, re-openings were staggered, smaller class sizes, better social distancing requirements, better buildings etc.

My kids primary school is in an old secondary convent school. The only ventilation option is to wedge open old sash windows. When the rain is coming in the windows sideways during the winter the class will have to close, or else give the kids wetsuits and armbands.

Should have started small and ramped it up as the schools learn to cope with the measures. Give the schools a proper chance to sort accommodation problems and hire staff, when they can see in practice what they'll need to make the situation sustainable.

I think we're massively running the risk of a full reopening leading to a full shutdown very quickly after. And I don't blame the teachers/unions etc for this, it's embarrassing as a nation that we're facing such a difficult task to reopen, but it lies squarely at the consistent failure of previous Governments to invest in our children...

Iscreamkone

the corpo wrote: »

I think a full re-opening with full attendance is madness, with our class sizes and poor infrastructure. Virtually nowhere else has attempted this, re-openings were staggered, smaller class sizes, better social distancing requirements, better buildings etc.

My kids primary school is in an old secondary convent school. The only ventilation option is to wedge open old sash windows. When the rain is coming in the windows sideways during the winter the class will have to close, or else give the kids wetsuits and armbands.

Should have started small and ramped it up as the schools learn to cope with the measures. Give the schools a proper chance to sort accommodation problems and hire staff, when they can see in practice what they'll need to make the situation sustainable.

I think we're massively running the risk of a full reopening leading to a full shutdown very quickly after. And I don't blame the teachers/unions etc for this, it's embarrassing as a nation that we're facing such a difficult task to reopen, but it lies squarely at the consistent failure of previous Governments to invest in our children...

If you are unhappy about sending your children back to school, then don't.
I am at work for a number of weeks and we have had no problems.
Covid deaths are at practically zero countrywide.
Total deaths are now running at lower levels than this time last year.

We need to get on with things. I don't think sending the children back to school is a major risk. Of course it is a small risk but so is crossing the road.

Loafing Oaf

the corpo wrote: »

I think a full re-opening with full attendance is madness, with our class sizes and poor infrastructure. Virtually nowhere else has attempted this, re-openings were staggered, smaller class sizes, better social distancing requirements, better buildings etc.

Is it even possible for most Irish schools to do this, given the infrastructure constraints?

Alrigghtythen

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Is it even possible for most Irish schools to do this, given the infrastructure constraints?

The can use additional spaces for instance the local community hall or a marquee