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What is our plan?

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    #302
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    dubrov wrote: »
    Even New Zealand haven't implemented a long term solution. They will eventually lose their game of whack-a-mole. Just have a look at Australia

    I don't see why they should - once they also have the virus test and trace capabilities on standby to "whack" anything that does get out of their quarantine/monitoring system immediately.
    I agree the economic damage caused by such a policy is bad but they are obviously calculating that both the health benefits and economic upside of being able to have a local society entirely unrestricted by safety procedures, distancing, ppe etc are worth it.
    Not that well versed, but afair 1 "state" in Australia f-ed up because they let private security manage the process for them.
    The government really does have to take charge of critical stuff like this.


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    #303
    aido79
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 5,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭aido79


    i_surge wrote: »
    Let's just suspend the details for a moment and go back to basics.

    Island nation
    Control domestic cases
    Don't import fresh ones

    You don't believe it would work? Honestly?!

    Unprecedented times, unprecedented measures.

    The border is just a human problem to overcome. I think lads jumping fences to spread covid to the south is a paranoid illusion.

    So close the airports and ports and get Northern Ireland to close their airports and ports too until everyone is vaccinated?

    No I don't think it will work.


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    #304
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    aido79 wrote: »
    So close the airports and ports and get Northern Ireland to close their airports and ports too until everyone is vaccinated?

    No I don't think it will work.

    Even from the mathematical epidemiological angle? Moving from an open to a closed system.

    You are stretching it just because you can't envision a radical thing happening.

    Vaccinated or covid dies of natural causes...same situation we are in now, no?


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    #305
    ronano
    Registered Users Posts: 3,136 ✭✭✭ronano


    pgj2015 wrote: »
    Anyone with half a brain knows the dregs of society are sinn fein supporters.

    :rolleyes: great post, really made your point with sound evidence, the drivel from some of ye


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    #306
    aido79
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 5,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭aido79


    i_surge wrote: »
    Even from the mathematical epidemiological angle? Moving from an open to a closed system.

    You are stretching it just because you can't envision a radical thing happening.

    Vaccinated or covid dies of natural causes...same situation we are in now, no?

    I'll ask 2 simple questions.

    Do you understand that there are 2 separate countries on the island of Ireland?

    And do you understand that one of country's political parties would rather subject themselves to a coronavirus outbreak than go against what the British government is doing?


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    #307
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    aido79 wrote: »
    I'll ask 2 simple questions.

    Do you understand that there are 2 separate countries on the island of Ireland?

    And do you understand that one of country's political parties would rather subject themselves to a coronavirus outbreak than go against what the British government is doing?

    I'm only outlining what will definitely work in principle if you can work around the obstacles. I'm sure most of NI has sane, rational people who might have an interest in getting their lives back. Just a thought. Collaboration is only impossible in your set of limiting beliefs.

    Even if the NI border was open and we commited to the rest it would be a significant improvement and coming from a low baseline could make all the difference in not regressing.


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    #308
    aido79
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 5,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭aido79


    i_surge wrote: »
    I'm only outlining what will definitely work in principle if you can work around the obstacles. I'm sure most of NI has sane, rational people who might have an interest in getting their lives back. Just a thought. Collaboration is only impossible in your set of limiting beliefs.

    Even if the NI border was open and we commited to the rest it would be a significant improvement and coming from a low baseline could make all the difference in not regressing.

    There is no point in talking about what would work in principle if it can't be implemented in real life.

    I don't mean to offend you but I get the impression that you are not from Ireland originally as you don't seem to understand the politics of Northern Ireland or even the basics about the border and what effect closing it might have.


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    #309
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    aido79 wrote: »
    There is no point in talking about what would work in principle if it can't be implemented in real life.

    I don't mean to offend you but I get the impression that you are not from Ireland originally as you don't seem to understand the politics of Northern Ireland or even the basics about the border and what effect closing it might have.

    I just see the inability to take peer demonstrated effective hard measures when the time comes to be piss weak.

    Better to never try


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    #310
    aido79
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 5,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭aido79


    i_surge wrote: »
    I just see the inability to take peer demonstrated effective hard measures when the time comes to be piss weak.

    Better to never try

    You really need to google how much the DUP are against anything that is Irish and maybe then you will understand why an island approach will never happen regardless of how much sense it makes.


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    #311
    Feria40
    Registered Users Posts: 442 ✭✭Feria40


    i_surge wrote: »
    I just see the inability to take peer demonstrated effective hard measures when the time comes to be piss weak.

    Better to never try

    Back again tonight ��

    Sorry my dear but your grasp of economic and political reality is unfortunately lacking


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    #312
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    Feria40 wrote: »
    Back again tonight ��

    Sorry my dear but your grasp of economic and political reality is unfortunately lacking

    My grasp of the simplicity of eradication and its importance supercedes what I see as human problems to be overcome by hook or by crook.

    Just a different attitude to the "that would never work here" pessimism.


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    #313
    Feria40
    Registered Users Posts: 442 ✭✭Feria40


    i_surge wrote: »
    My grasp of the simplicity of eradication and its importance supercedes what I see as human problems to be overcome by hook or by crook.

    Just a different attitude to the "that would never work here" pessimism.

    Ok sure :D


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    #314
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    Feria40 wrote: »
    Ok sure :D

    I'm aware i'm talking pie in the sky ****e but the merits are undeniable :)


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    #315
    Feria40
    Registered Users Posts: 442 ✭✭Feria40


    Anyone else think the 3 county lockdown was a bit knee jerk today?

    I mean is it just going to be lockdown after lockdown when the schools go back and we get stuck into winter??

    I mean there is always going to be a certain level of reaciveness required with this yoke, but in Ireland it is reaciveness and little else.

    It's a bit feckin late to be rolling out regular testing at the meat plants now, did no one in NPHET or the Government consider this as potentially worthwhile exercise 6 or 8 weeks ago?

    I mean looking around the rest of the world it was obviously going to be a source of infection here too.

    But sure why think ahead, let's just discomode a few hundred thousand people instead


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    #316
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    i_surge wrote: »
    I'm aware i'm talking pie in the sky ****e but the merits are undeniable :)

    Well you admit it is currently pie in the sky!
    We require NI or better the rest of the UK fully on board and supporting such a policy too. If this carries on for a long time yet & causes further economic damage it is not beyond the bounds of possibility imo. There is quite a radical/extreme govt. next door right now so if BoJo and his minions take it into their heads elimination is the way to go they'll probably turn on a sixpence & actually try to do it (god help us/them!). Unfortunately they are also quite incompetent imo, so it would likely end in a failure like everything else they do! Completely stamping out a highly contagious virus in a dense population of 60M+ or so is not a trivial task even for a highly effective and efficient government.


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    #317
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    Feria40 wrote: »
    Anyone else think the 3 county lockdown was a bit knee jerk today?

    I mean is it just going to be lockdown after lockdown when the schools go back and we get stuck into winter??

    I mean there is always going to be a certain level of reaciveness required with this yoke, but in Ireland it is reaciveness and little else.

    It's a bit feckin late to be rolling out regular testing at the meat plants now, did no one in NPHET or the Government consider this as potentially worthwhile exercise 6 or 8 weeks ago?

    I mean looking around the rest of the world it was obviously going to be a source of infection here too.

    But sure why think ahead, let's just discomode a few hundred thousand people instead

    It only goes to show why we can't entertain this half baked idea of "living with the virus"

    Time to kill it


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    #318
    tobefrank321
    Registered Users Posts: 4,467 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    Any plan is better than no plan. At least with a plan you have control and you have an exit strategy.

    We have no exit strategy.

    We're waiting on a vaccine that could come next year or might never be 100% effective or might not have enough of a takeup.


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    #319
    tobefrank321
    Registered Users Posts: 4,467 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    i_surge wrote: »
    It only goes to show why we can't entertain this half baked idea of "living with the virus"

    Time to kill it

    How do you propose to kill it? And that means permanently.

    It can't be done especially as we share a border with the north who have a different approach.


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    #320
    KindOfIrish
    Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭KindOfIrish


    i_surge wrote: »
    It only goes to show why we can't entertain this half baked idea of "living with the virus"

    Time to kill it

    And the only way to kill it is to lift all restrictions and lockdowns.


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    #321
    Feria40
    Registered Users Posts: 442 ✭✭Feria40


    tobefrank321 wrote: »
    Any plan is better than no plan. At least with a plan you have control and you have an exit strategy.

    We have no exit strategy.

    We're waiting on a vaccine that could come next year or might never be 100% effective or might not have enough of a takeup.

    A plan of sorts maybe. But the underlying questions remain why did the experts in NPHET not foresee the meat plant issue when it has been happening around Europe for months. Or did they foresee it and were just ignored?


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    #322
    Happy4all
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,089 ✭✭✭Happy4all


    Don't panic. FF are back in charge.


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    #323
    KindOfIrish
    Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭KindOfIrish


    Happy4all wrote: »
    Don't panic. FF are back in charge.

    FF are my only hope to buy a house with no mortgage. I did not have enough money last time they ruined our economy, but now I am ready!


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    #324
    Feria40
    Registered Users Posts: 442 ✭✭Feria40


    I know social media platforms are hardly a perfect bellwether for the mood of a nation but there does seem to be some shift this evening.

    Instead of the usual Facebook/journal meltdowns of:

    - do as you are told
    - shut the borders
    - foreign holidays will kill us all

    People are finally asking why why and why was the meat plant and DP centre issue not obvious and dealt with before now.

    NPHET and the then government managed to get a free pass on the nursing home scandal but I think it will be less easy to hoodwink people going forward.


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    #325
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    Feria40 wrote: »
    I know social media platforms are hardly a perfect bellwether for the mood of a nation but there does seem to be some shift this evening.

    Instead of the usual Facebook/journal meltdowns of:

    - do as you are told
    - shut the borders
    - foreign holidays will kill us all

    People are finally asking why why and why was the meat plant and DP centre issue not obvious and dealt with before now.

    NPHET and the then government managed to get a free pass on the nursing home scandal but I think it will be less easy to hoodwink people going forward.


    This week it is meatplants, it will be something else next week with no end in sight. Rolling lockdowns are unfair and ineffective.

    Get serious about killing the virus, it is the only solution.


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    #326
    Feria40
    Registered Users Posts: 442 ✭✭Feria40


    i_surge wrote: »
    This week it is meatplants, it will be something else next week with no end in sight. Rolling lockdowns are unfair and ineffective.

    Get serious about killing the virus, it is the only solution.

    Or eh maybe forward plan a little..? For some reason the rest of Europe got hit 3 to 4 weeks in advance of us both in the Spring and now in the last month.. surely this affords us the opportunity to oh I dunno learn some lessons from our neighbors... Meat plants, DP centres and indeed bars and restaurants that don't play by the rules.

    There are only so many workplaces where people work cheek by jowl.

    Stop with the kill the virus nonsense please you acknowledged yourself a few posts back that it was pie in the sky


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    #327
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    Feria40 wrote: »
    Or eh maybe forward plan a little..? For some reason the rest of Europe got hit 3 to 4 weeks in advance of us both in the Spring and now in the last month.. surely this affords us the opportunity to oh I dunno learn some lessons from our neighbors... Meat plants, DP centres and indeed bars and restaurants that don't play by the rules.

    There are only so many workplaces where people work cheek by jowl.

    Stop with the kill the virus nonsense please you acknowledged yourself a few posts back that it was pie in the sky

    Very doable but pie in the sky in that sense that small unambitious minds dominate and won't take hard action when it needed. European mediocrity. Continue making a bollox of everything...meat plants, schools, loss of public patience for few months more until we are properly between a rock and hard place.

    I have a question? What was the scene around the border at the strictest height of lockdown?


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    #328
    Bit cynical
    Registered Users Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical


    i_surge wrote: »
    Very doable but pie in the sky in that sense that small unambitious minds dominate and won't take hard action when it needed. European mediocrity.
    In fairness you still haven't said how you would go about sealing the border with the north or persuading the DUP to sever ties with mainland UK, something they would not have the power to do legally even if they wanted.


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    #329
    Feria40
    Registered Users Posts: 442 ✭✭Feria40


    Bit cynical wrote: »
    In fairness you still haven't said how you would go about sealing the border with the north or persuading the DUP to sever ties with mainland UK, something they would not have the power to do legally even if they wanted.

    Oh darling you are just so small minded!


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    #330
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    Bit cynical wrote: »
    In fairness you still haven't said how you would go about sealing the border with the north or persuading the DUP to sever ties with mainland UK, something they would not have the power to do legally even if they wanted.

    And I have said 10 times that it is a small problem in the context of an international pandemic. Ye seem more afraid of the DUP than the virus that screwed up an entire year for most people and doesn't seem to be ffffing off like it was hoped.

    I have also said that the border could remain open if you went to town on all the other available measures. Imperfect but would get you to a much better position.

    Anyone have some facts on how much border crossing was happening at peak lockdown?


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    #331
    aido79
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 5,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭aido79


    i_surge wrote: »
    And I have said 10 times that it is a small problem in the context of an international pandemic. Ye seem more afraid of the DUP than the virus that screwed up an entire year for most people and doesn't seem to be ffffing off like it was hoped.

    I have also said that the border could remain open if you went to town on all the other available measures. Imperfect but would get you to a much better position.

    Anyone have some facts on how much border crossing was happening at peak lockdown?

    I'm beginning to doubt you even live in Ireland. Have you ever been to the border? Some people actually have houses where their kitchen is in the Republic and their bedroom is in the North and you're asking how much border crossing was happening at peak lockdown.

    You don't seem to have a clue who the DUP are either.


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