What is our plan?

seamus

I'm giving SF the benefit of the doubt on this one tbf. That is, they recognise that in the midst of a public health emergency the most damaging thing you can do is create a counter-narrative that contradicts the government response for political gain.

SF are the masters at hurling from the ditch and inventing criticism to make noise about, so if they thought there was merit in criticism during this emergency, they'd be all over it.

pgj2015

most of the sinn fein vote is coming from people on low income or social welfare. they believe sinn fein in power = more money for them when the reality will be the opposite. sinn fein are the enemy of anyone with ambition.

KindOfIrish

MadYaker wrote: »

If the state didn’t support people who were out of work the economic situation would be far far worse. Borrowing hand over fist isn’t as bad when you know an economic revival is coming in the next or two when we are all vaccinated so the debt can be managed. Many other countries are doing the exact same thing. The outlook isn’t as grim as you say.

People have been out of work as a result of wrong decisions taken by the Government. They had to lift all restriction for general public and businesses at the beginning of May when it became clear that COVID dangerous for very narrow group of population only.

facehugger99

We don't have a plan.

We have a bunch of spineless politicians, paralyzed by fear taking direction from a bunch of single-issue bureaucrats that have jobs for life and gold-plated pensions.

We are kicking the can down the road month after month and adding billions of debt that our kids and grandkids will need to pay back on our behalf.

We are doing this all while being whipped into a constant state of hysteria by the media who are just loving the extra clicks.

MadYaker

KindOfIrish wrote: »

People have been out of work as a result of wrong decisions taken by the Government. They had to lift all restriction for general public and businesses at the beginning of May when it became clear that COVID dangerous for very narrow group of population only.

So those people are expendable in your view? Anyone who is old or with an underlying condition. What makes their lives worth less than yours?

aido79

facehugger99 wrote: »

We don't have a plan.

We have a bunch of spineless politicians, paralyzed by fear taking direction from a bunch of single-issue bureaucrats that have jobs for life and gold-plated pensions.

We are kicking the can down the road month after month and adding billions of debt that our kids and grandkids will need to pay back on our behalf.

We are doing this all while being whipped into a constant state of hysteria by the media who are just loving the extra clicks.

Not even a mention of 5G or pandemic/scandemic...is that even a proper rant?

The Unbearables

pgj2015 wrote: »

most of the sinn fein vote is coming from people on low income or social welfare. they believe sinn fein in power = more money for them when the reality will be the opposite. sinn fein are the enemy of anyone with ambition.

So people on low income lack ambition?

pgj2015

The Unbearables wrote: »

So people on low income lack ambition?

Sinn Fein want the rich to pay for everything, from what they have been saying they are going to be backing the low paid and unemployed. now they wont be able to follow through on this promise but people will have to figure that out themselves if they ever get into power.

I wouldnt be so sure that the Shinners will walk the next election though, they sat on their hands during the worst of the pandemic and did throw the odd sly dig at the people in power. if this government get us through this pandemic in good shape they will get in again easily enough as we could actually do a lot better than a lot of other European countries and big countries like the united states.

nw1dqsv7amx026

MadYaker wrote: »

So those people are expendable in your view? Anyone who is old or with an underlying condition. What makes their lives worth less than yours?

Their lives are not worth less but their lives are at risk.

The money that pays their state pensions, GP visits, drugs, home care, nursing care etc comes from the revenue that the state raises.

So, we need the young to be out there raising this revenue.

They also had to endure emigration, high taxes and unemployment when they were younger.
Looks like millennials and later will also have to endure this but without an education.

MadYaker

Are you still on lockdown? I was in a pub last night and my office is open again.

Charles Babbage

There is an enormous amount of nonsense posted in this thread. Ireland had a reasonable plan for schedule of reopening, this was generally a wise plan. However, in Covid19 the detail is everything and some of the detail of this has not been properly done, requiring masks, restricting times in pubs calling themselves restaurants etc. This detail needs to be tightened up.
The is economy is not "half closed", it is operating 90% by value and 85% by employment, and a few more % can be achieved if the correct policies are followed. We had entire decades with less people in employment than there are now, it is not ideal but it is not the end of the world either. Yes, we are borrowing some money and this can be paid back over a decade. Ireland is among the prosperous countries of the world, but what is the point of that prosperity if we cannot use it to cope with a disease? Just as when a family member becomes ill we concentrate on that and not on going to the pub then so it is with the nation as a whole.
As for millennials doing without an education, may students will get better grades when they have college courses with the associated drinking and acting the maggot.

Feria40

Charles Babbage wrote: »

There is an enormous amount of nonsense posted in this thread. Ireland had a reasonable plan for schedule of reopening, this was generally a wise plan. However, in Covid19 the detail is everything and some of the detail of this has not been properly done, requiring masks, restricting times in pubs calling themselves restaurants etc. This detail needs to be tightened up.
The is economy is not "half closed", it is operating 90% by value and 85% by employment, and a few more % can be achieved if the correct policies are followed. We had entire decades with less people in employment than there are now, it is not ideal but it is not the end of the world either. Yes, we are borrowing some money and this can be paid back over a decade. Ireland is among the prosperous countries of the world, but what is the point of that prosperity if we cannot use it to cope with a disease? Just as when a family member becomes ill we concentrate on that and not on going to the pub then so it is with the nation as a whole.
As for millennials doing without an education, may students will get better grades when they have college courses with the associated drinking and acting the maggot.

I think in the fullness of time and I hope sooner rather than later, we will get some Investigate journalism on our handling of Covid.

Almost half our deaths have been in care homes despite the fact that we saw in advance what happened to the elderly in other countries. Don't we all recall Dr Tony saying in March that we need not be so hasty in restricting visitors to nursing homes?

Meat plants have been a major source of infection globally for the last few months, should we not have noticed this and been all over our own meat plants? There aren't actually that many of them.

We announced mandatory masks in busses but did not legislate for a number of weeks after.

We announced mandatory masks in shops a few weeks ago but only from Monday next will the law catch up.

Non compliance with the rules for restaurants and particularly the bar restaurants is widespread. The guards have confirmed that they have zero powers other than MAYBE object to a license renewal...bit late then.

Why are the simple things that could make a huge difference in managing ( not eliminating) Covid not done here properly.

We unfortunately can't put everything into the personal responsibility basket, if we could we would live in a utopian country with no requirement for guards or courts :pac:

jonnny68

pgj2015 wrote: »

most of the sinn fein vote is coming from people on low income or social welfare. they believe sinn fein in power = more money for them when the reality will be the opposite. sinn fein are the enemy of anyone with ambition.

i suppose you have hard evidence to back up such a ridicalous claim, anyone i know none of who are low income or welfare voted for them.

on the grand scale of ridicalous posts on this forum this has to rank as one of the most stupid, honest to god what you are saying is downright ridicalous.

jonnny68

facehugger99 wrote: »

We don't have a plan.

We have a bunch of spineless politicians, paralyzed by fear taking direction from a bunch of single-issue bureaucrats that have jobs for life and gold-plated pensions.

We are kicking the can down the road month after month and adding billions of debt that our kids and grandkids will need to pay back on our behalf.

We are doing this all while being whipped into a constant state of hysteria by the media who are just loving the extra clicks.

spot on here.

snotboogie

facehugger99 wrote: »

We don't have a plan.

We have a bunch of spineless politicians, paralyzed by fear taking direction from a bunch of single-issue bureaucrats that have jobs for life and gold-plated pensions.

We are kicking the can down the road month after month and adding billions of debt that our kids and grandkids will need to pay back on our behalf.

We are doing this all while being whipped into a constant state of hysteria by the media who are just loving the extra clicks.

What country do you think has done a good job?

Charles Babbage wrote: »

There is an enormous amount of nonsense posted in this thread. Ireland had a reasonable plan for schedule of reopening, this was generally a wise plan. However, in Covid19 the detail is everything and some of the detail of this has not been properly done, requiring masks, restricting times in pubs calling themselves restaurants etc. This detail needs to be tightened up.
The is economy is not "half closed", it is operating 90% by value and 85% by employment, and a few more % can be achieved if the correct policies are followed. We had entire decades with less people in employment than there are now, it is not ideal but it is not the end of the world either. Yes, we are borrowing some money and this can be paid back over a decade. Ireland is among the prosperous countries of the world, but what is the point of that prosperity if we cannot use it to cope with a disease? Just as when a family member becomes ill we concentrate on that and not on going to the pub then so it is with the nation as a whole.
As for millennials doing without an education, may students will get better grades when they have college courses with the associated drinking and acting the maggot.

I think you are broadly right if things are brought back to normal sometime next year, maybe we can hang on until 2022? However there are nearly 400k on the wage subsidy and nearly 300k on the covid payment. This can't keep going for years on end, especially when emigration is a non option and we could see the country slipping back and forth to phase two.

Think you are a bit harsh on young people as well. I am not envious of them right now.

pgj2015

jonnny68 wrote: »

i suppose you have hard evidence to back up such a ridicalous claim, anyone i know none of who are low income or welfare voted for them.

on the grand scale of ridicalous posts on this forum this has to rank as one of the most stupid, honest to god what you are saying is downright ridicalous.

Anyone with half a brain knows the dregs of society are sinn fein supporters.

gral6

PUP is being cut from 10th August and much more businesses will be closed today because of new lockdown today. What a ****ing joke

i_surge

Diarmuid wrote: »

Having scanned this thread, I think that's the approach i_surge was taking last night

Ah small minds only see problems and obstacles to doing things right

standard :pac:

i_surge

seamus wrote: »

It's pretty clear that you don't understand how New Zealand got to where it did.

It closed down super early, and closed its borders super early. As a result once they go on top of all of the infections, they had it under control.

Both countries went into lockdown at roughly the same time, but we had ten times the infections that they did at that point. It spread considerably faster in Ireland than in New Zealand.

Based on our location and the amount of travel to affected regions, there is functionally no way that we could have achieved what New Zealand did unless we had closed down the country before we even had a confirmed case.

And we have gone full circle to get to a lowish but not low enough baseline of cases to have a stab at a proven approach.

aido79

i_surge wrote: »

And we have gone full circle to get to a lowish but not low enough baseline of cases to have a stab at a proven approach.

The problem isn't getting a low enough baseline. We've proven we can get to zero cases. That's the easy part. It's keeping it there that's the problem.
What is the proven approach?

i_surge

aido79 wrote: »

The problem isn't getting a low enough baseline. We've proven we can get to zero cases. That's the easy part. It's keeping it there that's the problem.
What is the proven approach?

This feels like a comedy.

The pure straight logic of not importing new cases.

MadYaker

i_surge wrote: »

And we have gone full circle to get to a lowish but not low enough baseline of cases to have a stab at a proven approach.

We couldn't really have had a full lockdown for much longer than we did and the plan was never to get to zero cases anyway. We share a land border with the UK and we can't close it. The NZ approach was never an option for us. Our plan is to get numbers down to a manageable level and keep them there. So far our heads are still above water but were on our tippy toes now I reckon.

Also the plan is here by the way https://www.gov.ie/en/news/58bc8b-taoiseach-announces-roadmap-for-reopening-society-and-business-and-u/

i_surge

MadYaker wrote: »

We couldn't really have had a full lockdown for much longer than we did and the plan was never to get to zero cases anyway. We share a land border with the UK and we can't close it. The NZ approach was never an option for us. Our plan is to get numbers down to a manageable level and keep them there. So far our heads are still above water but were on our tippy toes now I reckon.

Also the plan is here by the way https://www.gov.ie/en/news/58bc8b-taoiseach-announces-roadmap-for-reopening-society-and-business-and-u/

What happens if things get unmanageable?

Not just cases but an economy bleeding out on low sentiment. Humour me, let's say there isn't much change in 6 or 12 months...what then?

Do you think open borders are manageable? Without much management in place currently.

aido79

i_surge wrote: »

This feels like a comedy.

The pure straight logic of not importing new cases.

The funny part is that you haven't given a logical explanation as to how this can be done in Ireland.

MadYaker

i_surge wrote: »

What happens if things get unmanageable?

Not just cases but an economy bleeding out on low sentiment. Humour me, let's say there isn't much change in 6 or 12 months...what then?

Do you think open borders are manageable? Without much management in place currently.

Define unmanageable?

If cases spike we go backwards into lockdown until the numbers drop again and then we proceed forward again. You can see this in action today with 3 counties being put on a two week lockdown. I don't think a full lockdown of the country will be necessary again. Maybe during the flu season. The borders are currently open so I would say open borders are manageable yes. Our plan is based off the WHO guidelines as far as I know, most countries are doing the same thing.

I don't think there will be much change for 6 or 12 months. This is our lives now until we all get vaccinated which as things currently stand will probably be 2022.

i_surge

aido79 wrote: »

The funny part is that you haven't given a logical explanation as to how this can be done in Ireland.

Let's just suspend the details for a moment and go back to basics.

Island nation
Control domestic cases
Don't import fresh ones

You don't believe it would work? Honestly?!

Unprecedented times, unprecedented measures.

The border is just a human problem to overcome. I think lads jumping fences to spread covid to the south is a paranoid illusion.

i_surge

i_surge wrote: »

What happens if things get unmanageable?

Not just cases but an economy bleeding out on low sentiment. Humour me, let's say there isn't much change in 6 or 12 months...what then?

Do you think open borders are manageable? Without much management in place currently.

Yes, they are. Closed borders are not.

i_surge

MadYaker wrote: »

Define unmanageable?

If cases spike we go backwards into lockdown until the numbers drop again and then we proceed forward again. You can see this in action today with 3 counties being put on a two week lockdown. I don't think a full lockdown of the country will be necessary again. Maybe during the flu season. The borders are currently open so I would say open borders are manageable yes. Our plan is based off the WHO guidelines as far as I know, most countries are doing the same thing.

I don't think there will be much change for 6 or 12 months. This is our lives now until we all get vaccinated which as things currently stand will probably be 2022.

There is nothing manageable there, it is hope and prayer stuff. Look at the speed of escalation to shutting counties.

This is the half life we should actively plan to avoid by doing the hard but right thing.

dubrov

i_surge wrote:

You don't believe it would work? Honestly?!

It would work for a while until we relaxed restrictions and opened up or borders again.

Even New Zealand haven't implemented a long term solution. They will eventually lose their game of whack-a-mole. Just have a look at Australia

MadYaker

i_surge wrote: »

There is nothing manageable there, it is hope and prayer stuff. Look at the speed of escalation to shutting counties.

This is the half life we should actively plan to avoid by doing the hard but right thing.

Its time to look at a map. If you look at the north of Ireland you'll see there is a few counties that are actually part of different a country, the UK. We can't control what they do, and we can't close the border for reasons id really rather not get into here. So while getting down to zero cases is a nice idea, it's a pipe dream.