What is our plan?

fly_agaric

aido79 wrote: »

I said it's an insight into the DUP's thinking not an official statement. We can see from the Brexit negotiations that they will do anything to stick with the union. They take their orders from Westminster so will not listen to the Irish government even if it seems like a common sense approach.

I agree with you that it has a huge effect on businesses. I just don't agree that closing the borders for 3 months and then opening them up again will solve anything.

Even if what UK govt. is advising in a given circumstance is nonsense and awful for NI due to its circumstances, the DUP will prefer to brainstorm their bespoke 'NI' approach to the problem than coordinate something with the Irish government.

However, as seen with saga of the Covid-19 phone applications, if they are finally out of options (let us see what happens after 6 months or a year more of this, with a vaccine still somewhere over the horizon), they may reluctantly see sense and accept cooperation with the govt. here on an all-island policy.

seamus

aido79 wrote: »

What radical action do you suggest?

Well if you take the logical outcome of his point, then you're looking at reopening everything while maintaining the public health measures.

This would necessitate preparing for a large jump in cases - prefab temporary hospitals where the hopeless cases can be put into palliative care while we just wait for this thing to burn out.

It's the last option and unlikely to be somewhere that we need to go, but it's always been a possibility.

jonnny68

murpho999 wrote: »

How is the government all over the place? What have they done for you to say that?

The economy is re-opened as planned but Phase IV that put back which keeps pubs closed but pubs are not the whole economy.

Shops and businesses are open.

Restrictions such as social distancing, mask wearing etc are going to remain in place until either the virus dies out or a vaccine is found and implemented.

surely your taking the proverbial piss here, they have been nothing short of an unmitigated nightmare in their handling of this virus, this latest shambles of a government are making things up as they go along and chopping and changing their mind and back tracking , jaysus when you look at how other country's handled it like New Zealand for example your almost embarrased to be Irish.

dubrov

jonnny68 wrote:

surely your taking the proverbial piss here, they have been nothing short of an unmitigated nightmare in their handling of this virus, this latest shambles of a government are making things up as they go along and chopping and changing their mind and back tracking , jaysus when you look at how other country's handled it like New Zealand for example your almost embarrased to be Irish.

New Zealand has a very different set of circumstances to Ireland.

There is no long term solution in New Zealand either assist from closing borders indefinitely. Even then, the virus will still get in there eventually

jonnny68

dubrov wrote: »

New Zealand has a very different set of circumstances to Ireland.

There is no long term solution in New Zealand either assist from closing borders indefinitely. Even then, the virus will still get in there eventually

how do you know this, are you privvy to information from the NZ government?

regardless, anyone who actually thinks this shambolic government have /are done a good job is deluded and are probably the type of person who would put their hand into the fire if the government said to do so.

jonnny68

And then you have Dr Ronan Glynn the Chief Medical officer using google as an example in othert countries when asked to produce evidence of clusters in pubs in Ireland....only in Ireland :rolleyes:

Donald Trump

Deleted User wrote: »

So what is our plan? Do you think we have one?

Here it is OP.



I would have thought you might have been aware of it - it being on the news almost every day.

seamus

jonnny68 wrote: »

jaysus when you look at how other country's handled it like New Zealand for example your almost embarrased to be Irish.

It's funny how as time goes on, the list of countries who have done "great" that people can rattle off, has been whittled down from 10 or so, to just...New Zealand.

It's almost like there's something special about New Zealand that isolates it from the rest...

jonnny68

jonnny68 wrote: »

surely your taking the proverbial piss here, they have been nothing short of an unmitigated nightmare in their handling of this virus, this latest shambles of a government are making things up as they go along and chopping and changing their mind and back tracking , jaysus when you look at how other country's handled it like New Zealand for example your almost embarrased to be Irish.

New Zealand aren't a member of the open borders EU next door to the worst COVID hotspots on the planet with free movement to and from it.

snotboogie

jackal wrote: »

I think for the various reasons outlined in previous posts here the eradication approach taken by NZ (and literally nobody else) is a complete non starter.

So what I would be interested in is... what is the plan for living with the virus?

That means that the government/NPHET put out an outline of key milestones and what the effect of reaching those would be. At the moment decisions are made behind closed doors and we are treated like children, not given the information but scolded about behaviour. Its wearing very thin with me.

So what I would like to see would be something along the lines of:

x cases per day on average = y actions taken, and why we are doing it
x cases hospitalised = y actions taken, and why we are doing it
x cases in ICU = y actions taken, and why we are doing it
x deaths per day (hopefully not) = y actions taken, and why we are doing it

Imaging they actually treat the population like adults and say what the "magic numbers" (that the clearly have in mind but just wont tell us) are and what actions will be taken.

Maybe I would not like the plan, maybe it would be too conservative or too risky, but I would be happy for some clarity. We have been given no plan since "stop the surge". The easing of lockdowns plan has gone off the rails at this point with no clarity given on what the numbers that they need to be seeing are, just vague, ominous sounding statements on "not looking good" etc.

Plenty of other countries are taking the same approach as New Zealand; China, Thailand, Vietnam and Australia are all attempting the same approach with varying levels of success.

Deleted User wrote: »

I think initially when there was serious talk of 500k deaths in Ireland it was the sensible thing to do. Now we seem to be stuck in a holding pattern of going for zero cases while allowing the world to visit us unimpeded. Now it makes far less sense. We have to accept there will be clusters and outbreaks and bring the country back to some sort of socially distanced normality. Especially schools and medical services. People are dying every day of preventable conditions, but no one is talking about that in the news.

What matters is what our health service can deal with. They have to project months into the future. If we are trending towards the health service breaking down in three months we have to take action now.

aido79 wrote: »

What radical action do you suggest?

If a vaccine doesn't come out, our options are staying between phase 2 and phase 4 for years or working towards a Covid Free Island. Thats it.

dubrov wrote: »

New Zealand has a very different set of circumstances to Ireland.

There is no long term solution in New Zealand either assist from closing borders indefinitely. Even then, the virus will still get in there eventually

The virus has gotten into New Zealand after their lockdown, they tracked effectively and eradicated it quickly without a need for any measures affecting business.

If there is no vaccine the options are;
(i) close the borders for non essential travel for 5-10 years and run the domestic economy at 100%
(ii) keep the borders open and advise against non essential travel for 5-10 years while the domestic economy runs at 40%-60%

I'm taking the former every day. People, in the huge, huge majority are not traveling now anyway, what we have now is about as good as its going to get (maybe we have a few months with pubs open) without a vaccine or a covid free island.

Diarmuid

seamus wrote: »

Well if you take the logical outcome of his point, then you're looking at reopening everything while maintaining the public health measures.

This would necessitate preparing for a large jump in cases - prefab temporary hospitals where the hopeless cases can be put into palliative care while we just wait for this thing to burn out.
.

That's complete scaremongering. Multiple European countries have fully opened up without having to build "prefab hospitals"

Donald Trump

Donald Trump wrote: »

Here it is OP.


I would have thought you might have been aware of it - it being on the news almost every day.

It's a plan with no goals, also known as a wish.

snotboogie

snotboogie wrote: »

The virus has gotten into New Zealand after their lockdown, they tracked effectively and eradicated it quickly without a need for any measures affecting business.

If there is no vaccine the options are;
(i) close the borders for non essential travel for 5-10 years and run the domestic economy at 100%
(ii) keep the borders open and advise against non essential travel for 5-10 years while the domestic economy runs at 40%-60%

I'm taking the former every day. People, in the huge, huge majority are not traveling now anyway, what we have now is about as good as its going to get (maybe we have a few months with pubs open) without a vaccine or a covid free island.

Our domestic economy is something on a par with Albania or Belarus. We are an exporting nation heavily dependent on multinationals.

jonnny68

Deleted User wrote: »

New Zealand aren't a member of the open borders EU next door to the worst COVID hotspots on the planet with free movement to and from it.

so we're back to blaming foreign travel now, how many cases are travel related recently hardly any, in fact the overall picture travel only accounts for a tiny amunts of the cases here, it makes no difference if NZ are far away it was the way they handled it from the outset which was excellent.

snotboogie

Diarmuid wrote: »

That's complete scaremongering. Multiple European countries have fully opened up without having to build "prefab hospitals"

Not a single country on earth, nevermind Europe, has lifted all restrictions

Deleted User wrote: »

Our domestic economy is something on a par with Albania or Belarus. We are an exporting nation heavily dependent on multinationals.

The restrictions would be on the movement of people, not of goods.

seamus

Diarmuid wrote: »

That's complete scaremongering. Multiple European countries have fully opened up without having to build "prefab hospitals"

Which ones? Which countries have pubs and nightclubs fully open, as well as stadiums and concert arenas? And how are their case numbers looking?

Donald Trump

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a plan with no goals, also known as a wish.

Sure have an actual read of it - you might find some goals on it - such as the reopening of pubs. If you haven't read it (and your response would indicate that you haven't) then you might very well think there are no goals on it.



If what you are moaning about is that the plan is adjusted after creation, then that is normal and expected.





(BTW, your statement makes no logical sense......I think you meant to say that a wish is a goal without a plan....which is in itself not a good definition or explanation either)

jonnny68

seamus wrote: »

It's funny how as time goes on, the list of countries who have done "great" that people can rattle off, has been whittled down from 10 or so, to just...New Zealand.

It's almost like there's something special about New Zealand that isolates it from the rest...

From the outset NZ handled this better than anyone, and this is a country similar size to ourselves , what the government here should have done in March was ban all travel unless very essential and test everyone coming into the country and isolate them until they got their test back.

But no none of that happened, and instead then come out with some ridicalous green list with countries on it you cant even fly directly to , and then still try and frighten people into staying in Ireland by saying dont travel, you couldnt make this up if you tried.

aido79

jonnny68 wrote: »

From the outset NZ handled this better than anyone, and this is a country similar size to ourselves , what the government here should have done in March was ban all travel unless very essential and test everyone coming into the country and isolate them until they got their test back.

But no none of that happened, and instead the come out with some ridicallous green list wirth countries on it you cant even fly directly to , and then still try and frighten people into staying in Ireland by saying dont travel, you couldnt make this up if you tried.

Which part of NZ doesn't share a border with another country are you having trouble with?

jonnny68

aido79 wrote: »

Which part of NZ doesn't share a border with another country are you having trouble with?

what part of "this doesnt make any difference in the slightest" are you having trouble with, once someone gets infected in a country irrespective if they share a border with another country or not it can spread very quickly in a very short space of time, so what NZ done was act very quickly to stop this by banning travel except for returning citizens and any citizens arriving back into NZ were tested and isolated until they got their results, did Ireland do this?No and they still arent doing this, that's the whole point im making, how they handled it compared to the utter shambles here and they are only getting worse here making it up as they go along and backtracking and chopping and changing their minds.

aido79

jonnny68 wrote: »

what part of "this doesnt make any difference in the slightest" are you having trouble with, once someone gets infected in a country irrespective if they share a border with another country or not it can spread very quickly in a very short space of time, so what NZ done was act very quickly to stop this by banning travel except for returning citizens and any citizens arriving back into NZ were tested and isolated until they got their results, did Ireland do this?No and they still arent doing this, that's the whole point im making, how they handled it compared to the utter shambles here and they are only getting worse here making it up as they go along and backtracking and chopping and changing their minds.

Of course it makes a difference. The Irish government have no control over who enters Northern Ireland and then onto the Republic. Banning travel into airports in the Republic would just mean people would fly into Belfast instead.

HeidiHeidi

jonnny68 wrote: »

what part of "this doesnt make any difference in the slightest" are you having trouble with, once someone gets infected in a country irrespective if they share a border with another country or not it can spread very quickly in a very short space of time, so what NZ done was act very quickly to stop this by banning travel except for returning citizens and any citizens arriving back into NZ were tested and isolated until they got their results, did Ireland do this?No and they still arent doing this, that's the whole point im making, how they handled it compared to the utter shambles here and they are only getting worse here making it up as they go along and backtracking and chopping and changing their minds.

How do you ban or control travel from another country with which you share a completely open border, and whose citizens have a right to free travel to your country (as indeed do we to their country, as evidenced by the many posters boasting on threads here about how they were able to circumvent the travel/quarantine rules)?

jonnny68

aido79 wrote: »

Of course it makes a difference. The Irish government have no control over who enters Northern Ireland and then onto the Republic. Banning travel into airports in the Republic would just mean people would fly into Belfast instead.

Yes so what they should have done in March was ban all travel but they didnt,and irrespective of this it's all too easy to blame fopreign travel when the harsh reality is somewhat different, a tiny proportion of cases here are related to travel so it makes no difference whatsoever.

HeidiHeidi

jonnny68 wrote: »

Yes so what they should have done in March was ban all travel but they didnt,and irrespective of this it's all too easy to blame fopreign travel when the harsh reality is somewhat different, a tiny proportion of cases here are related to travel so it makes no difference whatsoever.

Did you even read the post you quoted?

Or indeed your own post, before you pressed "submit reply"?

you2008

Deleted User wrote: »

Back in March/April, things were clear. We needed to flatten the curve, avoid hospitals getting overwhelmed, get our testing and tracing up to speed and get the R below 1. Once that was achieved, we needed a reopening plan that would allow us to live with the virus.

The reopening plan was ridiculously long but at least we had some dates to mark off in our calendars. Unfortunately, as soon cases increased the slightest bit, we sh*t the bed and delayed stage 4. Now with 1 or 2 decent sized clusters, we are sh*tting the bed even more, implementing curfews on restaurants, pubs etc

Unfortunately, I have very little confidence that we are going to get the schools right. The plan lacked any real substance. If one or two cases appear in schools, I think all schools will close again. That's if parents even send their kids back at all.

In Ireland, we don't appear to be aiming for Covid zero. We also don't appear to be making much effort to live with the virus. We are just sort of floating along in limbo at the moment. Borrow billions and kick the can further and further down the road. Might not be the worst plan in the world if a vaccine arrives any minute now, but how likely is that?

Since the change in government, things have actually gotten worse. MM doesn't seem to have a notion what to do and Leo is obviously happy enough that that is coming across.

So what is our plan? Do you think we have one?
What will burn out first, the virus or our money?
How long do you think do you think we can carry on the way we are currently?
How likely is it that we'll get a vaccine?
How long can they keep the public onside?

jacdaniel2014 - is not about Sh**t your bed, is about the oldly people, just this week, when I was in the Supermarket, only half had masks and the other half who had masks (half did not cover their nose), so you tell me ........

aido79

jonnny68 wrote: »

Yes so what they should have done in March was ban all travel but they didnt,and irrespective of this it's all too easy to blame fopreign travel when the harsh reality is somewhat different, a tiny proportion of cases here are related to travel so it makes no difference whatsoever.

Ban all travel for how long? Until they vaccinate everyone?

gral6

If Dublin is behaving, why Kildare isn't?
What's wrong with people from Kildare?

jonnny68

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

How do you ban or control travel from another country with which you share a completely open border, and whose citizens have a right to free travel to your country (as indeed do we to their country, as evidenced by the many posters boasting on threads here about how they were able to circumvent the travel/quarantine rules)?

Obviously it's not something you can complety control , im referring to Dublin airport or any other airport in the Republic ,not Belfast, early on in March/April when the virus was at it's peak anyone arriving into Dublin/Shannon/Cork,etc should have been tested and isolated until they got results back when the

But at the risk of repeating myself yet again, blaming foreign travel for cases like some do is a cop out, they only account for a small number.

HeidiHeidi

aido79 wrote: »

Ban all travel for how long? Until they vaccinate everyone?

Ban all travel, how?

HeidiHeidi

jonnny68 wrote: »

Obviously it's not something you can complety control , im referring to Dublin airport or any other airport in the Republic ,not Belfast, early on in March/April when the virus was at it's peak anyone arriving into Dublin/Shannon/Cork,etc should have been tested and isolated until they got results back when the

But at the risk of repeating myself yet again, blaming foreign travel for cases like some do is a cop out, they only account for a small number.

But sure if it's only a small number, why would you ban travel when it's so damaging to the economy?