How will schools be able to go back in September?

wirelessdude01 · 06-07-2020 12:55PM

average_runner wrote: »

Dept never pays for anything, the Irish people will pay for it all through our taxes.

Would you prefer if we didn't have hand sanitizer in our schools so?

Lillyfae · 06-07-2020 01:01PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

When the teaching unions dare to go public over something you end up with the sh!tshow that is currently happening from some in the media. You can witness it from those on here who are tying to drive some agenda that we are looking for a payrise.

The media can't make it up if they say nothing more than:

Money (or order) for cleaning, refurbishment of buildings and extra facility staff and supplies needs to come centrally from the department of education.

But now it's July and this should have been top of the agenda in March, which it wasn't.

Millem · 06-07-2020 01:01PM

meeeeh wrote: »

There is some social distancing yes but nobody said that you can't do certain precautions and there are professions where social distancing is not possible and they still go to work.

I would love to know what professions have reopened back as normal with 1000+ people on the premises all together at once with no social distancing.

BonsaiKitten · 06-07-2020 01:05PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

This cannot be the end of it. What is the point of your union at all? Working conditions are an absolute corner stone and they need to be fighting for you, not merely mentioning a problem and then fading back into the background. Anyone who is paying for school supplies out of their own pocket is fully endorsing being ignored by the DoE. Sure why would they listen when their employees are saving them thousands a year by begging a second (besides income tax) contribution from parents and giving their salary back to their employer in supplies....

Oh I know! It's an absolute disgrace. It's quite funny really as people have this perception that teacher unions are too powerful but in actual fact they're about as useful as a chocolate teapot.

The problem of teachers self funding classrooms isn't unique to Ireland btw. I was reading a thread about classroom spends on /r/teachers the other day - an American teacher talked about spending $1800 on setting up for her first year. Note that that isn't accounting for materials during the year, that's kitting out the classroom prior to September. An extreme amount to spend but she didn't seem to be alone in it.

I also wrote about my US student teacher earlier in this thread and how she was fundraising for classroom tables and chairs (DonorsChoose - which is specifically for teacher fundraisers and a big part of the culture over there). Now, want to know something outrageous? Some schools in the US are not allowed use DonorsChoose/Amazon wishlists, no budget is given and a fully kitted out classroom is expected in September. All out of the teachers pocket - again, not the norm but what a ****ed up system it is that allows it.

wirelessdude01 · 06-07-2020 01:07PM

I'm assuming you all heard the lady from Denmark, that was on The Today show on RTE radio one this morning. She was discussing all the strict things they put in place to keep students and staff safe. Most important one according to her was the strictly enforced 2m between children at all times.

wirelessdude01 · 06-07-2020 01:07PM

I'm assuming you all heard the lady from Denmark, that was on The Today show on RTE radio one this morning. She was discussing all the strict things they put in place to keep students and staff safe. Most important one according to her was the strictly enforced 2m between children at all times.

Lillyfae · 06-07-2020 01:12PM

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Oh I know! It's an absolute disgrace. It's quite funny really as people have this perception that teacher unions are too powerful but in actual fact they're about as useful as a chocolate teapot.

Why do you guys bother with them? My union wouldn't let this stuff go and the representative only get an extra vacation day per year as reward for being reps

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

The problem of teachers self funding classrooms isn't unique to Ireland btw. I was reading a thread about classroom spends on /r/teachers the other day - an American teacher talked about spending $1800 on setting up for her first year. Note that that isn't accounting for materials during the year, that's kitting out the classroom prior to September. An extreme amount to spend but she didn't seem to be alone in it.

It really depends on what is deemed essential materials. A friend of mine is a teacher and when we went shopping once she was buying a load of stickers and sparkly things in the pound shop because she wanted to do a particular activity that she'd seen on the internet with the kids. A nice gesture but totally unnecessary to their actual education. Of course she can do what she likes with her own money but it wasn't a necessary expense and she knows that.

wirelessdude01 · 06-07-2020 01:15PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

Why do you guys bother with them? My union wouldn't let this stuff go and the representative only get an extra vacation day per year as reward for being reps

I'm the shop steward in our school and get nothing except questions from the staff!!!

As someone already said, people seem to think that the teaching unions are this all powerful movement. If they were then we still wouldn't have pay inequality for people such as myself.

lulublue22 · 06-07-2020 01:19PM

meeeeh wrote: »

Don't pretend it's about looking for hand sanitiser, that's easily resolved. Also childcare managed to open. Because they are private business who get paid only when they are open they managed to find solutions (yes I know there are limits), shops, restaurant staff everyone else is managing. If the approach would be lets see how we can get back it would be fine. But it's not, the approach of unions is we are not coming back unless...

I would be very interested in the solutions creches implemented to accommodate 850 children on a daily basis ? Thats the enrolment figures for our local primary school. If thats not feasible how about 230 - 300 children on a daily basis ? or look lets make it very easy a small primary school of 150 children . Every day adhering to social distancing without increased funding and staff.
I think you will find that you will struggle to find a comparative creche / child minding facility that deals with that amount of children on a daily basis. As I keep mentioning children not including staff.
But rant away with the sly digs re pay.

Lillyfae · 06-07-2020 01:20PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I'm the shop steward in our school and get nothing except questions from the staff!!!

Er, what did you think was going to happen?

average_runner · 06-07-2020 01:21PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Would you prefer if we didn't have hand sanitizer in our schools so?

That wasn't my point. Was just saying its not the Dept that pays for it, instead the workers which include the teachers.

Regarding Sanitizer, students should bring a small bottle themselves to the school, as should the teachers. Still needs to be some in the school but shouldn't depend on the school for it

wirelessdude01 · 06-07-2020 01:22PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

Er, what did you think was going to happen?

Point being that we don't even get a free dinner. You said your rep gets an additional days holiday. Reps don't do the job to get something, we do it because we enjoy helping people and provide a central point for feedback to the union.

BonsaiKitten · 06-07-2020 01:23PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

Why do you guys bother with them? My union wouldn't let this stuff go and the representative only get an extra vacation day per year as reward for being reps

I ask myself the same question every time union dues roll around

The thing with the unions is that you don't need them until you need them. They have been very helpful when dealing with parents or principals (not me personally but from experiences from friends). They are worth it from that point of view.

I do think unions are important so I guess I feel it's best to try to change then from within. Go to the branch meetings etc etc. It can get a bit dispiriting at times but I think not attending branch meetings would be worse.

Lillyfae wrote: »

It really depends on what is deemed essential materials. A friend of mine is a teacher and when we went shopping once she was buying a load of stickers and sparkly things in the pound shop because she wanted to do a particular activity that she'd seen on the internet with the kids. A nice gesture but totally unnecessary to their actual education. Of course she can do what she likes with her own money but it wasn't a necessary expense and she knows
that.

Oh absolutely fair yes, I don't bill the school for frivolous things I buy. Things like science/art supplies, lesson or storage materials I'd get them to reimburse. Books too - sometimes you'd pick them up in charity shops. My school is quite affluent, so it's not an issue for them. For friends in other areas it's a very different story.

Funding varies widely in the US system so the classrooms with the high costs would probably be like the one my student teacher had. I believe school funding is paid via local taxes so a poor area will by default have less funding available for schools. Probably a vast oversimplification of the issues there.

Lillyfae · 06-07-2020 01:24PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Point being that we don't even get a free dinner. You said your rep gets an additional days holiday. Reps don't do the job to get something, we do it because we enjoy helping people and provide a central point for feedback to the union.

The INTO president does it out of the goodness of her heart, is it?

Providing a central point of feedback would, a lot of the time, result in many questions.

wirelessdude01 · 06-07-2020 01:25PM

average_runner wrote: »

Regarding Sanitizer, students should bring a small bottle themselves to the school, as should the teachers. Still needs to be some in the school but shouldn't depend on the school for it

They should but children constantly forget to bring things to school. Books, homework, lunch, drink, sports equipment. Now some aren't given these things at home anyway. For the foreseeable, inorder to make sure that we keep schools as safe as possible the dept just need to step the fcuk up.

wirelessdude01 · 06-07-2020 01:26PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

The INTO president does it out of the goodness of her heart, is it?

Providing a central point of feedback would, a lot of the time, result in many questions.

That is a paid position. Stop trolling.

Lillyfae · 06-07-2020 01:30PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

That is a paid position. Stop trolling.

I'm not trolling, I'm struggling to understand how you're happy to fund an organisation who are consistently and systematically ignored by the department they're supposed to be liaising with on your behalf?? Also wondering what you thought being the shop steward would entail if you thought that questions from your colleagues wasn't it?

wirelessdude01 · 06-07-2020 01:37PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

I'm not trolling, I'm struggling to understand how you're happy to fund an organisation who are consistently and systematically ignored by the department they're supposed to be liaising with on your behalf?? Also wondering what you thought being the shop steward would entail if you thought that questions from your colleagues wasn't it?

You said your shop steward gets an extra days holiday and I made the point that all I get are questions, not even a free dinner. I'm jealous of that!!!!!!

I'm an active member of the union. Without unions things would be alot worse for teachers without a doubt. As someone already said most people are members for that just in case something happens moment. A colleague not mine had reason to use their legal department previously and she was mightily happy to have access to it. Government doesn't have to listen to any union if they choose not to.

Lillyfae · 06-07-2020 01:42PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

You said your shop steward gets an extra days holiday and I made the point that all I get are questions, not even a free dinner. I'm jealous of that!!!!!!

I didn't say shop steward, I said union rep. The Union body is made up of various colleagues across the departments in my company. They discuss things such as pay and conditions for 2 hours a month and get an extra day off per year. If there is an issue with things such as pay and conditions we put it to them and they discuss that and put it to our management. We get a monthly update on their meetings. They don't get paid for this.

jrosen · 06-07-2020 01:56PM

Millem wrote: »

Everyone has reopened with social distancing or more staff?

Im back to work, we cant social distance and we have no additional staff. Yes we have access to soap and water, masks and face shields.

This has been said for ages now on this thread when teachers focus on social distancing. There are many industries where social distancing is not possible at all. A work around has to be found in order for those business to get back. Schools wont and cant be any different, a work around has to be found.

Its actually crazy that its almost mid july with no guidance.

wirelessdude01 · 06-07-2020 01:58PM

jrosen wrote: »

Its actually crazy that its almost mid july with no guidance.

Yes it is. Schools are being hung out to dry.

Lillyfae · 06-07-2020 02:02PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Yes it is. Schools are being hung out to dry.

True, but they also have their own management structure. Every school that feels that they can't open safely needs to outline why, and what would need to be done in order to do so and the costs for doing it. Who else can do it otherwise??

Treppen · 06-07-2020 02:05PM

average_runner wrote: »

No offence but i hope every school has hot water and soap to wash kids hands before covid-19. if no hot water they should have santizier then.

Was camping at the weekend, kids had a great time with other kids. No social distancing as they got to play.

There should be no social distancing in schools either.
Kids back in all sports this week, life moves on.

Hope won't butter any parsnips.
Hence why I'm delighted unions are asking for assurances. I can't see why people are saying v this is a bad thing!

wirelessdude01 · 06-07-2020 02:10PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

True, but they also have their own management structure. Every school that feels that they can't open safely needs to outline why, and what would need to be done in order to do so and the costs for doing it. Who else can do it otherwise??

Costings can only be made or attempted really when we have proper guidance and guidelines. Still waiting.

Smacruairi · 06-07-2020 02:10PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

True, but they also have their own management structure. Every school that feels that they can't open safely needs to outline why, and what would need to be done in order to do so and the costs for doing it. Who else can do it otherwise??

I work on a BOM, we are preparing 3 plans, one for everyone back, one for no one back, one for blended learning. We have asked the dept for clarification on several matters surrounding funding, staffing, and procedures if staff and students present as symptomatic over an extended period of time. No reply other than hang on. We submitted our views to the teachers unions, to the JMB, and invited all stakeholders to liaise with us so we could pass it on, they were very happy to communicate. Again when we passed this on to the dept, no word back.

Our staff and students are willing to rock and roll but it really is as simple as: you have told everyone to abide by hse guidelines. Hse guidelines say we can't really have school, can you go again. They then say sort it out yourselves. When we say we can't as we have no money, bodies, and we can't get a consensus from parents as to how they want to proceed, we don't get an answer at all.

We would love to be as flexible as possible, and staff similarly are keen to bend, especially the younger ones. The only ones who aren't keen are parents who understandably need to go back to work, and the media who keep trying to bafflingly make this about teachers.

I really don't understand the cognitive dissonance. People don't seem to understand that a circular is an edict to a school, you can't just do your own thing, it's not there to be interpreted. You can't just do your own thing and bend guidelines when kids are involved?

lulublue22 · 06-07-2020 02:16PM

jrosen wrote: »

Im back to work, we cant social distance and we have no additional staff. Yes we have access to soap and water, masks and face shields.

This has been said for ages now on this thread when teachers focus on social distancing. There are many industries where social distancing is not possible at all. A work around has to be found in order for those business to get back. Schools wont and cant be any different, a work around has to be found.

Its actually crazy that its almost mid july with no guidance.

My own personal opinion is that social distancing will be dropped for schools. I can’t see how schools could function other wise. I personally don’t have a problem with this but in order for schools to open and stay open then we need guidelines for immunocompromised staff and children. Clear guidance around illness - parents must be available to take children home and keep at home when sick. Increased sick leave / no need to have a dr cert for staff with a cold / sore throat for the duration of the pandemic. Clear guidelines around outbreaks of covid in the school , availability of testing. Hand sanitizer and masks available for staff as a given.

Lillyfae · 06-07-2020 02:17PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

I work on a BOM, we are preparing 3 plans, one for everyone back, one for no one back, one for blended learning. We have asked the dept for clarification on several matters surrounding funding, staffing, and procedures if staff and students present as symptomatic over an extended period of time. No reply other than hang on. We submitted our views to the teachers unions, to the JMB, and invited all stakeholders to liaise with us so we could pass it on, they were very happy to communicate. Again when we passed this on to the dept, no word back.

Our staff and students are willing to rock and roll but it really is as simple as: you have told everyone to abide by hse guidelines. Hse guidelines say we can't really have school, can you go again. They then say sort it out yourselves. When we say we can't as we have no money, bodies, and we can't get a consensus from parents as to how they want to proceed, we don't get an answer at all.

We would love to be as flexible as possible, and staff similarly are keen to bend, especially the younger ones. The only ones who aren't keen are parents who understandably need to go back to work, and the media who keep trying to bafflingly make this about teachers.

I really don't understand the cognitive dissonance. People don't seem to understand that a circular is an edict to a school, you can't just do your own thing, it's not there to be interpreted. You can't just do your own thing and bend guidelines when kids are involved?

Thanks for the clear explanation, and for your work in trying to get the children back to school. It's true that the public and media are pointing the finger at teachers, but teachers are pointing the finger at the BoMs aswell as the departments, and I truly think it's up to the unions to get in there on the case of the DoE.

Smacruairi · 06-07-2020 02:22PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

Thanks for the clear explanation, and for your work in trying to get the children back to school. It's true that the public and media are pointing the finger at teachers, but teachers are pointing the finger at the BoMs aswell as the departments, and I truly think it's up to the unions to get in there on the case of the DoE.

I agree, but these conversations are not being had by calm heads on a rational basis. You only have to look at the debaclr of the pubs open.. And now everyone throwing a fit because the guidelines aren't being followed. We have brought in a risk assessment medical officer to look at the school next week for distances etc. You don't stick that on your website for all to see until he makes a recommendation like. I just think everyone needs to delete twitter, and not give the Ciara Kelly types any oxygen.

I agree with the above poster too, I think all of society will have to make a choice with schools, you're going into a bit of a danger zone, it's your choice. Most will, but then something has to be in place to support those who don't, staff and student and parent alike. I don't know how that looks though other than the DES formally providing centralised remote lessons.

Also the unions are on at the DES, that's why you had 2 newspapers come out swinging against the unions this week.. (could be a tin foil hat though!)

wirelessdude01 · 06-07-2020 02:22PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

Thanks for the clear explanation, and for your work in trying to get the children back to school. It's true that the public and media are pointing the finger at teachers, but teachers are pointing the finger at the BoMs aswell as the departments, and I truly think it's up to the unions to get in there on the case of the DoE.

Who on here has pointed a finger at the BoM? Their hands are totally tied. Back to the department again for instructions.

History Queen · 06-07-2020 02:23PM

meeeeh wrote: »

Hand sanitiser? I am sure that can be arranged. Half (probably most) of Europe was back to school without major issues.This is ideological fight not about the best interests of kids.

That is literally one of the things the unions have asked for. What part of "the Dept need to sanction funding for schools to reopen" are you not getting?

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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