How will schools be able to go back in September?

Random sample

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Would supervision/insurance be a problem with base classes? Presumably when the teachers are moving about the school that means that the kids will be unsupervised during that transition. I'm primary so I don't know about the rules in secondary but it would be a big problem for us.

I’d imagine so. We can’t leave the unsupervised as it is, and in bigger schools you could be a long time getting from one end to the other.

Bananaleaf

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Would supervision/insurance be a problem with base classes? Presumably when the teachers are moving about the school that means that the kids will be unsupervised during that transition. I'm primary so I don't know about the rules in secondary but it would be a big problem for us.

I'd imagine this would be a huge issue. However, I also imagine we would be told that it's no more of an issue than them being unsupervised on the corridor as they make their way to class. The lesser of two evils if you will.

I know there is a one in a million chance of this happening, but I had a student who had no history of epilepsy go into a full-on fit in class one day. Paramedics had to be called. To this day I get nervous thinking 'what if, at that exact moment, I had quickly popped out to grab something off the photocopier or whatever?'

ldy4mxonucwsq6

lulublue22 wrote: »

Interesting - though how will it work in practical terms in school ?

I'd imagine they'd coordinate everything from signage to hand sanitiser and oversee the logistics around premises, supplies and cleaning from a guidelines perspective.

Also practically maybe there as a supervision for children who become ill, maybe temperature checks etc, implementing illness procedures, parent communications.

It didn't go into much detail about the role but it would definitely help to have someone who's sole responsibility as overseeing covid guidelines in each school.

Would make the schools safer for all anyway.

wirelessdude01

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

I'd imagine they'd coordinate everything from signage to hand sanitiser and oversee the logistics around premises, supplies and cleaning from a guidelines perspective.

Also practically maybe there as a supervision for children who become ill, maybe temperature checks etc, implementing illness procedures, parent communications.

It didn't go into much detail about the role but it would definitely help to have someone who's sole responsibility as overseeing covid guidelines in each school.

Would make the schools safer for all anyway.

Once again it comes back to the department, money will be an issue. Expect this to be delegated to an existing staff member as possibly an emergency AP2 post for just a year. Cheapest way for them to appear to be doing something.

Bananaleaf

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Once again it comes back to the department, money will be an issue. Expect this to be delegated to an existing staff member as possibly an emergency AP2 post for just a year. Cheapest way for them to appear to be doing something.

If this happens, we need to be vocal about it. To be fair to parents and the public, half the time they are annoyed about what goes on in the schools, it's because they think we are provided for much much more than we are.

Take the predicted grading as the most recent example. The dept of Ed said that teachers and principals would be fully trained up in the predicted grading process. I dont know what the principals got, but our staff had a 25min meeting online with the principal where every single question was answered with the line 'you guys are the professionals- trust your judgement' There was an online video and a book of guidelines.

I'm not saying we got nothing, but I am saying that when people hear 'fully trained up', they are probably thinking we got more than we did.

If we get a Covid assistant that would be great. But if it ends up being just another job tacked onto the list of jobs that an already overworked AP2 has, then that's not on. And when things start going wrong, the public will be outraged saying 'and they have a person whose JOB it is to look as after this ffs' and sure who could blame them? I'd be thinking the same myself if I didn't know any better

wirelessdude01

Bananaleaf wrote: »

If this happens, we need to be vocal about it. To be fair to parents and the public, half the time they are annoyed about what goes on in the schools, it's because they think we are provided for much much more than we are.

Take the predicted grading as the most recent example. The dept of Ed said that teachers and principals would be fully trained up in the predicted grading process. I dont know what the principals got, but our staff had a 25min meeting online with the principal where every single question was answered with the line 'you guys are the professionals- trust your judgement' There was an online video and a book of guidelines.

I'm not saying we got nothing, but I am saying that when people hear 'fully trained up', they are probably thinking we got more than we did.

If we get a Covid assistant that would be great. But if it ends up being just another job tacked onto the list of jobs that an already overworked AP2 has, then that's not on. And when things start going wrong, the public will be outraged saying 'and they have a person whose JOB it is to look as after this ffs' and sure who could blame them? I'd be thinking the same myself if I didn't know any better

All us people who work in schools know that the department deal in smoke and mirrors. Nothing is ever clear. Wishy washy communication wth the term local arrangements is what I expect at this stage.

lulublue22

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Once again it comes back to the department, money will be an issue. Expect this to be delegated to an existing staff member as possibly an emergency AP2 post for just a year. Cheapest way for them to appear to be doing something.

I would expect the above to happen to be honest.

Treppen

Bananaleaf wrote: »

...
If we get a Covid assistant that would be great. But if it ends up being just another job tacked onto the list of jobs that an already overworked AP2 has.... And when things start going wrong, the public will be outraged saying 'and they have a person whose JOB it is to look as after this ffs' and sure who could blame them? I'd be thinking the same myself if I didn't know any better

I can see the department mandarins reading this post copying and pasting furiously, to be the first one to present it to the Minister.

Tack it onto AP, doesn't cost a penny. Sorted.

daithi7

I wonder how the continental countries who already have got their schools back have managed it so seamlessly?

Can we not just copy best practice from their experience already??

I mean what's the big deal here.



P.s. Or else let's just cancel next year's leaving cert exams also & totally cave to the public sector teacher unions......

Random sample

daithi7 wrote: »

I wonder how the continental countries who already have got their schools back have managed it so seamlessly?

Can we not just copy best practice from their experience already??

I mean what's the big deal here.



P.s. Or else let's just cancel next year's leaving cert exams also & totally cave to the public sector teacher unions......

I don’t know if you are seriously asking this or not, but other countries have not brought all kids back at the same time, have smaller classes in bigger classrooms to begin with and are having classes outside where possible.

Public sector teacher unions have nothing to do with any of that.

khalessi

daithi7 wrote: »

I wonder how the continental countries who already have got their schools back have managed it so seamlessly?

Can we not just copy best practice from their experience already??

I mean what's the big deal here.



P.s. Or else let's just cancel next year's leaving cert exams also & totally cave to the public sector teacher unions......

Whats the big deal? Sounds like somebody is not reading the thread!

Or maybe perish the thought cos it never happens on here but trolling!!!!

Nothing to do with the unions just the Department so send your ire there please, they are based in Molesworth Street Dublin.

Lillyfae

Hope you don't think I'm trying to get on your case but I loved how your post was so neatly laid out and came up with some possible solutions

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Staggered breaks - As students are not with the same teachers all day, this wouldn't be easy to work out. Maybe not impossible, but I can't figure out how it would work. Let's say I've a class, we'll call them Maths 1. I teach them and they are then to take their staggered break. I am to take the break then too, but hold on, my other class, Maths 2 are just finished their break and they are waiting for me to teach them....

It would mean that teachers breaks and students breaks need to be planned around each other. I'm guessing the person who makes the timetables in your school would have experience and knowledge doing this.

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Team teaching - the SEN model in secondary schools is not all withdrawal anymore - it's more in-class support via a second teacher in the room. Team teaching = 2 adults in the room. Harder to social distance. Although, the team teaching model allows for teachers to split the class so hopefully if space allowed (herein lies the problem I guess) one teacher could take one half off to another room and it would be very easy to social distance then

Would it be feasible/preferable to revert back to the previous method?

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Moving around the school - when the bell goes it is mayhem in our school. We have well over 1,000 pupils. Teachers have base rooms and students move. I'm thinking that surely it would make more sense for the students to be given base rooms and for the teachers to move? If the kids apparently don't transfer or carry it though, is it better for them to be moving around and not us?

Keep to one side at all times. Marking out a one way system if the corridors are not wide enough. For stairs, only one person at a time. The landings give enough space to distance so it's easy to spot if someone's coming and act accordingly.

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Time to clean - Say you have class from 9-9.30. Your next class starts at 9.30. But should it start at 9.35 to give you time to sanitise the place before the next class come in? Or should you finish the lesson at 9.25 and get the students to sanitise for the next group? Or will we just not be santising?

Either one is a good option

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Interactions with staff that you just can't avoid - queuing up for the photocopiers, needing to use a computer,

Spreadsheets. Shared document, allocated time slots. Check to see if it's available, put your name name down CTRL+S and go.

Bananaleaf wrote: »

accessing a staff toilet - how are we going to do this while being socially distant. Everyone says that they can open the GAA pitches but not the schools, but even on the GAA grounds and athletics tracks, they're not opening the toilets!

Only one person allowed in the toilet at a time. Door Open = Available , Door Closed= Unavailable.

Bananaleaf wrote: »

What about department meetings? Still have them on zoom/microsoft teams maybe? But they'd have to be done in school via teams as it's unreasonable to expect teachers who are parents to drive home to log in and go again.

?? I'm not sure I get this. Zoom or Teams, from wherever someone is working that day.

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Sick days - lets say I've flu-like symptoms and I call in sick. Do I have to get a Covid test? If I'm waiting 5/6 days for the result of that, am I using up all my sick leave? This might seem like a selfish or greedy attitude, but I'm thinking more of those who will opt not to call in sick if they think it will eat into their leave

This indeed needs to be clarified, although sick leave is there to be used up if it's necessary. It's not extra leave just in case of anything else other than being sick. But it should be extended and logged as exceptional sick leave. Although I would absolutely class teachers as essential workers and as such these results need to be available within 24 hours of the test.

Lillyfae

Random sample wrote: »

I don’t know if you are seriously asking this or not, but other countries have not brought all kids back at the same time, have smaller classes in bigger classrooms to begin with and are having classes outside where possible.

Public sector teacher unions have nothing to do with any of that.

I think a lot of the kids in most countries are back now. They have been here for weeks, having originally trialed 50% without problems

BonsaiKitten

I think the easiest solution to the sanitising would be to get students to wipe down desks before/after each lesson. You can't really let the whole lot hang out unsupervised on corridors for 5 mins if you're trying to reduce transmission. No doubt some kids will kick up a fuss about it but I am sure many would see the need.

Thinking back to my own secondary school, I don't think they'd have had the space to physically separate each year group at breaktimes. I assume a lot of other schools are similar and that's one of the biggest problems with it.

combat14

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

I think the easiest solution to the sanitising would be to get students to wipe down desks before/after each lesson. You can't really let the whole lot hang out unsupervised on corridors for 5 mins if you're trying to reduce transmission. No doubt some kids will kick up a fuss about it but I am sure many would see the need.

Thinking back to my own secondary school, I don't think they'd have had the space to physically separate each year group at breaktimes. I assume a lot of other schools are similar and that's one of the biggest problems with it.

japan has student cleaning built Into their timetables as part of their regular school day ..

schools here wont be able to reopen with only 1 cleaner.. they will need to hire lots more cleaners, pay them and rapidly garda vet or else students and staff will have to clean......... some hope seeing kids in some irish schools cooperate with that

Random sample

Lillyfae wrote: »

I think a lot of the kids in most countries are back now. They have been here for weeks, having originally trialed 50% without problems

What country is that and what is the student-teacher ratio?

beggars_bush

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

All us people who work in schools know that the department deal in smoke and mirrors. Nothing is ever clear. Wishy washy communication wth the term local arrangements is what I expect at this stage.

Holistic
Child centred
Bespoke

wirelessdude01

beggars_bush wrote: »

Holistic
Child centred
Bespoke

Bespoke is just a different way of saying that the principal and BoM can sort it out.

Lillyfae

Random sample wrote: »

What country is that and what is the student-teacher ratio?

According to OECD figures for 2017, 16.6 to Ireland's 15.7

Boggles

Lillyfae wrote: »

According to OECD figures for 2017, 16.6 to Ireland's 15.7

This should give you a flavor of the problem.

Boggles

Lillyfae wrote: »

According to OECD figures for 2017, 16.6 to Ireland's 15.7

This should give you a flavor of the problem.



The EU average is 20 per class.

Lillyfae

Boggles wrote: »

This should give you a flavor of the problem.

Source and date? I was quite surprised by the OECD numbers.

Random sample

Lillyfae wrote: »

Source and date? I was quite surprised by the OECD numbers.

Does your country include all teachers in that or classroom teachers? (in Ireland resource and learning support teachers are included, which skews the numbers).

FishOnABike

daithi7 wrote: »

Imho, nphet & the dept have made a mess of this from the off.

Firstly, kids under 12 aren't a covid risk at all (of either getting the infection or spreading it), therefore all primary schools should just go back pretty much as is, bar maybe controlling adults access to the school & extra hand sanitation and a bit of desk spacing.

Secondary students carry more testosterone & therfore have to be managed better and social distancing, extra hygiene, restricting visitors and facemasks should be the norm imho.

Then particularly at risk kids should be facilitated by video link and remote learning tools.

Job done, get back to school and less prevarication and pandering to the stuck in the mud public sector unions.... they're only ever after another pay day anyway!!

Are they a different species or something? Over 140 schools and kindergartens in Israel have had to shutdown again due to CoViD-19 positive staff or pupils¹.

There facemasks are mandatory for over 7s but they have similarly overcrowded schools as we have here and social distancing is not possible with all pupils in school.

"European Union education ministers attribute the lack of a significant rise in cases to having smaller class groups and close cooperation with health services to enforce restrictions like social distancing."

It should serve as a warning as to what is likely to happen here if we don't do things properly and give in to pressure to ignore medical advice. How schools should operate should be driven by sound science based guidelines, not sentiment or soundbytes.

¹ https://forward.com/news/448699/israels-schools-reopen-then-some-close-leaving-parents-flummoxed/

Boggles

Lillyfae wrote: »

Source and date? I was quite surprised by the OECD numbers.

INTO, April 2019.

Did you think I fashioned the map myself?

Here is OECD Education at a Glance from 2018

The OECD’s Education at a Glance 2018 report notes that smaller classes are often seen as beneficial because they allow teachers to focus more on the needs of individual students.

The average primary school class across the OECD during 2016 had 21 students, while some countries such as Costa Rica, Latvia and Lithuania have as few as 15 or 16 students per class.

In Ireland, there were 25 students in primary classes, the fifth highest in the 36-member OECD. Only the UK, Japan, Israel and Chile had slightly larger class sizes.

Large classes sizes extend into third level, with Ireland recording one of the highest student-teacher ratios in the OECD.

In higher education, student-teacher ratios range from eight to one in Luxembourg and 10 to one in Norway and Sweden.

While the OECD average is 15 to one, class sizes rise to more than 20 to one among a small group of countries including Ireland, India, Indonesia, Turkey, Belgium and Colombia.

Ireland lumps in everyone as a class teacher so the figures are false.

What country did you say you were in?

Tomtruth1973

This thread is pointless. Schools will need bigger budgets for cleaning and more substitutes to bring down class sizes. It will be negotiated between the unions and department.
Thank God we have a union unlike other workforces which have packed in staff in small rooms .
Lots of blather about pubs . Ask your local postman about where he works. Just One example.
Schools will open for most. I'm happy to go back once the cleaning and class sizes sorted. If I was really hopeful some extra health support for teachers with underlying conditions .

Random sample

Just to give you an idea where I’m coming from here, my kids are in prefabs with 35/36 students per class. The prefabs reduce the space available for the playground and there is no PE hall. We are close to the numbers for an extra teacher, but the sewerage system would not withstand another plumbed prefab.

wirelessdude01

The pupil teacher ratio in Ireland is totally lobsided due to the way that include all teachers on a staff. Across the 8 mainstream classes in our school we have an average of 27.75 pupils per class.

Lillyfae

Boggles wrote: »

INTO, April 2019.

Did you think I fashioned the map myself?

Here is OECD Education at a Glance from 2018



Ireland lumps in everyone as a class teacher so the figures are false.

What country did you say you were in?

Thanks for clarifying. Netherlands. They would include all teachers (SEN etc included), but many of those teachers would be expected to travel to different schools in the country depending on class sizes in a year. A friend of mine is a teacher and has spent about 5 years as a supply teacher, very common here (probably the most common situation). She spent the last year and a half travelling to a school 40 minutes away. She was applying for fixed positions in the mean time and she's got one now closer by.

lulublue22

Boggles wrote: »

INTO, April 2019.

Did you think I fashioned the map myself?

Here is OECD Education at a Glance from 2018



Ireland lumps in everyone as a class teacher so the figures are false.

What country did you say you were in?

I think to be fair the general public don’t realise that our numbers are skewed by the addition of SET and that the numbers are not reflective of conditions on the ground. The lowest I taught was 24 in a Deis 1 urban school. Now non Deis I’m generally in the 30/31 pupil range.