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How will schools be able to go back in September?
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It's not just about water bottles and hand sanitiser.average_runner wrote: »All the kids in our gaa bring their own water bottle and hand sanitizer. These kids are 7 years old. Why can't the kids bring their own to the schools?
In gaa training they are outdoors and it's easy to maintain distance in a gaa pitch for an hour or so once or twice a week.
Indoors in a cramped, poorly ventilated classroom for six hours, five days a week is a different risk and different (more) measures need to be put in place to mitigate that risk. Procedures also need to be put in place for potentially ill staff or pupils and how to respond to a potential and/or confirmed CoViD-19 case in a staff member or pupil or their family or contacts.0 -
Health advice document on reopening schools also says that young children shouldn’t have hand sanitiser in their possession due to risk of ingestion and the likelihood that they won’t use it properly or safely.0
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I teach in a large primary school.
In the academic year 2019-20, before anyone had even heard of Covid19, we were in dire straits when it came to finding subs.
We were down 4 teachers from November - March. No subs available. At all.
We were seriously understaffed with regard to SNAs too. That was because the DES refused to sanction extra SNAs who were desperately needed.
We spent every day firefighting as a result.
We had staff members coming in sick because they knew they couldn't increase the burden on their colleagues.
Throw Covid19 into the mix next year (September 2020) where it would be criminal to come in when you're unwell.
Children will have to be split if their teacher cannot attend school. However, by splitting children amongst classes the "bubbles" will be well and truly burst.
You say, put the SEN teacher in there for the day. However, the SEN teacher has to take the children who have SNA access to allow the SNA to take their break. The SEN teacher should also be teaching those children who were already at risk in terms of their education. The children who may have lost out even more during lockdown. The class teacher might be out for a week or two. Do the children with SEN have to miss out for a week or two as a result?
Do you see where there are issues?
I absolutely want to be back teaching full time in September. Distance learning (and teaching) for the last few months was extremely unsatisfactory. I am a parent of three primary school children. Working from home while trying to keep my three children engaged in their own learning was torture.
Hearing people say supermarkets remained open, hospitals stepped up, businesses adapted etc. is doing my head in. They all were able to function because they were able to reduce the number of people turning up to their place of work at a given time. We can't do that. We don't want to do that.
Parents don't want us to do that.
We answered the call too. The staff in our school have had engaged in so much upskilling in the past 3 months, I don't feel I ever need to do CPD again! (Before you pull me up on that, I jest - I'm doing yet another Digital Learning Course at the moment).
So now, we need the DES to step up. Pay for the bloody sanitiser. Pay for the PPE for those who want/need it. Pay for the subs - I don't know where they are going to come from but maybe if they were hired on a long-term subbing contract we mightn't have faced the staffing issues we faced last year.
I've already purchased a stock of my own visors, at significant personal cost, for September but really hope I don't have to use them. I won't be wearing a facemask as I believe facial expression is a very important aspect of communication with children but if things start to look ominous, I'll wear a visor. I'll do my bit to keep the lights on.0 -
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Do you think if one child in a family is showing "respiratory" symptoms, all brothers and sisters should also be kept off school, even if it's not known whether it's just a normal cold? I'm expecting the testing capacity to be under serious pressure by autumn / winter with other seasonal viruses.
Also, do you think parents will continue to send their child / children to school if suspected cases within the school arise?
I personally would keep all my kids off in both of the above scenarios. Just seeking opinions.0 -
lulublue22 wrote: »I’m ordering 3 cloth masks for school and I’ll be bring washing up gloves from home. Sanitizer will be provided by school.
Will there be spare supplies for kids/parents who don't have these?
Or will it fall back on the teacher to -yet again- dip their hands in their pockets.0 -
lulublue22 wrote: »This is going to be a huge problem next year- we had a bad run of coughs colds flu like illnesses last year. Dep really need to get their finger out on that one. Likewise children coming into school ill is a big issue. I do think dep will need to crack down on that. We have the same kids who are sent in regardless.
At least the schools might stop giving certs to kids who don’t miss a day all year now. I don’t think they do it in my sons school, but a friend of mines son would cry to go to school even if he was sick, and I suspect he’s been sent when he shouldn’t have been. They’re very proud of their sons collection of certs, and so is he. I think it’s an awful system, the smaller kids see it as though being sick and staying at home is the wrong thing to do0 -
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morebabies wrote: »Do you think if one child in a family is showing "respiratory" symptoms, all brothers and sisters should also be kept off school, even if it's not known whether it's just a normal cold? I'm expecting the testing capacity to be under serious pressure by autumn / winter with other seasonal viruses.
Also, do you think parents will continue to send their child / children to school if suspected cases within the school arise?
I personally would keep all my kids off in both of the above scenarios. Just seeking opinions.
That's an interesting question. I don't know what the answer is, off the top of my head I can't remember if the guidance covered it or not. I presume they'd have to stay off but that's entirely a guess and I don't think it's workable really. If it does happen it will lead to a lot of catch up going on in classes.
Second question is entirely dependent on the parents. Before the schools were ordered to close in March some parents in our school had been keeping their kids at home (some due to medical issues, others due to fear). No doubt some parents will do that again if there is a rise in cases. Equally we'll have parents sending in kids no matter what, as we always do!0 -
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BonsaiKitten wrote: »Apparently schools will have the right to refuse students with symptoms. Now how practical that is I don't know (imagine how well it will go down with parents?). This is provisional guidance so we'll have to see whether that makes it into the final version.
The problem with this is that you will have parents who give calpol to the kids before sending them to school to mask any symptoms. Then when the school calls for them to be picked up the call will be avoided or there will be traffic and the kids will be there until almost hometime anyway. And someone needs to supervise them somewhere. Our school has neither the spare room or the spare staff for this.
I think the big worry is that early august the DOE will drop a bomb like no distancing required but all students to wear a mask/visor, and schools must source them themselves and be reimbursed later. Then it'll be fun for the schools when the whole country is trying to source the same thing in the same few weeks.
As it is they should have trucks loaded with hand sanitizer and sanitizing stations and be distributing them to schools, none of this find it yourself rubbish.0 -
morebabies wrote: »Do you think if one child in a family is showing "respiratory" symptoms, all brothers and sisters should also be kept off school, even if it's not known whether it's just a normal cold? I'm expecting the testing capacity to be under serious pressure by autumn / winter with other seasonal viruses.
Also, do you think parents will continue to send their child / children to school if suspected cases within the school arise?
I personally would keep all my kids off in both of the above scenarios. Just seeking opinions.
This is once again a scenario where we await information from the department.0 -
The problem with this is that you will have parents who give calpol to the kids before sending them to school to mask any symptoms. Then when the school calls for them to be picked up the call will be avoided or there will be traffic and the kids will be there until almost hometime anyway. And someone needs to supervise them somewhere. Our school has neither the spare room or the spare staff for this.
I think the big worry is that early august the DOE will drop a bomb like no distancing required but all students to wear a mask/visor, and schools must source them themselves and be reimbursed later. Then it'll be fun for the schools when the whole country is trying to source the same thing in the same few weeks.
As it is they should have trucks loaded with hand sanitizer and sanitizing stations and be distributing them to schools, none of this find it yourself rubbish.
The fear in our school as well but a few weeks later. The department have form for being late with stuff or after the fact.0 -
The problem with this is that you will have parents who give calpol to the kids before sending them to school to mask any symptoms. Then when the school calls for them to be picked up the call will be avoided or there will be traffic and the kids will be there until almost hometime anyway. And someone needs to supervise them somewhere. Our school has neither the spare room or the spare staff for this.
I think the big worry is that early august the DOE will drop a bomb like no distancing required but all students to wear a mask/visor, and schools must source them themselves and be reimbursed later. Then it'll be fun for the schools when the whole country is trying to source the same thing in the same few weeks.
As it is they should have trucks loaded with hand sanitizer and sanitizing stations and be distributing them to schools, none of this find it yourself rubbish.
Oh absolutely, I'm sure every school already has problems with that sort of parents dodging the phone calls all day long. Your heart would break looking at the poor kids waiting for their parents to come and get them.
I predict that whatever way this goes, the media will be sure to whip up a storm!0 -
At least the schools might stop giving certs to kids who don’t miss a day all year now. I don’t think they do it in my sons school, but a friend of mines son would cry to go to school even if he was sick, and I suspect he’s been sent when he shouldn’t have been. They’re very proud of their sons collection of certs, and so is he. I think it’s an awful system, the smaller kids see it as though being sick and staying at home is the wrong thing to do
I hate attendance certs too, very unfair on kids with medical conditions and those who just catch every bug going. Hopefully if they are dropped, they won't return.0 -
Will there be spare supplies for kids/parents who don't have these?
Or will it fall back on the teacher to -yet again- dip their hands in their pockets.
Children not expected to wear masks. I’ve decided what I need to keep myself happy and safe at work - for me that means buying cloth masks and for vanity’s sake wearing gloves while sanitising my class. ( to protect my hands from wrinkles) whether it’s right or wrong to be buying supplies ourselves Im not wasting headspace on waiting for the dep to step up and provide ppe.0 -
BonsaiKitten wrote: »The draft guidance says they're not expecting kids to wear masks, so no.
Hand sanitizer?0 -
lulublue22 wrote: »Children not expected to wear masks. I’ve decided what I need to keep myself happy and safe at work - for me that means buying cloth masks and for vanity’s sake wearing gloves while sanitising my class. ( to protect my hands from wrinkles) whether it’s right or wrong to be buying supplies ourselves
It's wrong. That's my view.
I'm happy for our unions to play hardball and stick it to the government to pony up like every other business or government body that does the same.
They've no problem to pay out €50,000 per day for the dáil to move to the convention centre (and the other expenses that go with it). Zero debate about the spending and allocation of that money.
But when it comes to school allocations... Teachers have to -again- reach into their own pockets, or hold yet another raffle or table quiz for basics. Or beg for the illegal voluntary contributions to pay for the photocopying paper or toilet paper (any more updates on the dáil procurement of a €1m photocopier to print off Christmas cards.. that didn't fit in the door!).
Does the department of education hold an annual table quiz to pay for their toilet paper? Like #### they do.lulublue22 wrote: »Im not wasting headspace on waiting for the dep to step up and provide ppe.
Now is the time to say hold on and wait. It's like the 'friend' who never buys their round and hides in the jacks, and others get stuck, time and time again.0 -
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Does anyone who is teaching post-primary have any ideas at all about how this is going to work?
My father is in the vulnerable bracket and because of this I have been taking the whole thing extremely seriously. In my home, myself and my OH are still living by lockdown rules, even though the restrictions have been eased. We cancelled our staycation, we've not met with any friends, not been to get the hair done etc. On a personal level I don't want to catch it because stories seem to be emerging about long-term lung damage in recovered patients. I want to go back to work but I am not going back there to catch Covid.
How is this going to work in secondary schools - has anyone any idea? This is not meant as a negative Nelly post - I'm looking for solutions
Staggered breaks - As students are not with the same teachers all day, this wouldn't be easy to work out. Maybe not impossible, but I can't figure out how it would work. Let's say I've a class, we'll call them Maths 1. I teach them and they are then to take their staggered break. I am to take the break then too, but hold on, my other class, Maths 2 are just finished their break and they are waiting for me to teach them....
Staff room/breaks - this one fair enough. I wouldn't have a problem with there being no access to it because I have already made up my mind that I won't be using it next year anyway. I'll be bringing a kettle into my room and a cooler bag with my lunch.
Team teaching - the SEN model in secondary schools is not all withdrawal anymore - it's more in-class support via a second teacher in the room. Team teaching = 2 adults in the room. Harder to social distance. Although, the team teaching model allows for teachers to split the class so hopefully if space allowed (herein lies the problem I guess) one teacher could take one half off to another room and it would be very easy to social distance then
Moving around the school - when the bell goes it is mayhem in our school. We have well over 1,000 pupils. Teachers have base rooms and students move. I'm thinking that surely it would make more sense for the students to be given base rooms and for the teachers to move? If the kids apparently don't transfer or carry it though, is it better for them to be moving around and not us?
Time to clean - Say you have class from 9-9.30. Your next class starts at 9.30. But should it start at 9.35 to give you time to sanitise the place before the next class come in? Or should you finish the lesson at 9.25 and get the students to sanitise for the next group? Or will we just not be santising?
Interactions with staff that you just can't avoid - queuing up for the photocopiers, needing to use a computer, accessing a staff toilet - how are we going to do this while being socially distant. Everyone says that they can open the GAA pitches but not the schools, but even on the GAA grounds and athletics tracks, they're not opening the toilets! What about department meetings? Still have them on zoom/microsoft teams maybe? But they'd have to be done in school via teams as it's unreasonable to expect teachers who are parents to drive home to log in and go again.
Sick days - lets say I've flu-like symptoms and I call in sick. Do I have to get a Covid test? If I'm waiting 5/6 days for the result of that, am I using up all my sick leave? This might seem like a selfish or greedy attitude, but I'm thinking more of those who will opt not to call in sick if they think it will eat into their leave
I'm sure I'll think of more tomorrow but it's late. As I said, looking for answers, not just wishing to highlight problems0 -
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Teachers can easily buy a few visors for themselves (tho they should be provided) that's not really the issue. It's handsanitiser for kids. Essential really as 30 kids washing using the sinks to wash their hands several times a day isn't practical.
Kids shouldn't be bringing their own as its dangerous if it gets into your eye or swallowed (and some just won't bring it in)
So we need sanitising stations at every classroom door and money to refill these daily. If DES did this whoescale it would ve far more efficient and cost effective.0 -
Bananaleaf wrote: »Does anyone who is teaching post-primary have any ideas at all about how this is going to work?
My father is in the vulnerable bracket and because of this I have been taking the whole thing extremely seriously. In my home, myself and my OH are still living by lockdown rules, even though the restrictions have been eased. We cancelled our staycation, we've not met with any friends, not been to get the hair done etc. On a personal level I don't want to catch it because stories seem to be emerging about long-term lung damage in recovered patients. I want to go back to work but I am not going back there to catch Covid.
How is this going to work in secondary schools - has anyone any idea? This is not meant as a negative Nelly post - I'm looking for solutions
Staggered breaks - As students are not with the same teachers all day, this wouldn't be easy to work out. Maybe not impossible, but I can't figure out how it would work. Let's say I've a class, we'll call them Maths 1. I teach them and they are then to take their staggered break. I am to take the break then too, but hold on, my other class, Maths 2 are just finished their break and they are waiting for me to teach them....
Staff room/breaks - this one fair enough. I wouldn't have a problem with there being no access to it because I have already made up my mind that I won't be using it next year anyway. I'll be bringing a kettle into my room and a cooler bag with my lunch.
Team teaching - the SEN model in secondary schools is not all withdrawal anymore - it's more in-class support via a second teacher in the room. Team teaching = 2 adults in the room. Harder to social distance. Although, the team teaching model allows for teachers to split the class so hopefully if space allowed (herein lies the problem I guess) one teacher could take one half off to another room and it would be very easy to social distance then
Moving around the school - when the bell goes it is mayhem in our school. We have well over 1,000 pupils. Teachers have base rooms and students move. I'm thinking that surely it would make more sense for the students to be given base rooms and for the teachers to move? If the kids apparently don't transfer or carry it though, is it better for them to be moving around and not us?
Time to clean - Say you have class from 9-9.30. Your next class starts at 9.30. But should it start at 9.35 to give you time to sanitise the place before the next class come in? Or should you finish the lesson at 9.25 and get the students to sanitise for the next group? Or will we just not be santising?
Interactions with staff that you just can't avoid - queuing up for the photocopiers, needing to use a computer, accessing a staff toilet - how are we going to do this while being socially distant. Everyone says that they can open the GAA pitches but not the schools, but even on the GAA grounds and athletics tracks, they're not opening the toilets! What about department meetings? Still have them on zoom/microsoft teams maybe? But they'd have to be done in school via teams as it's unreasonable to expect teachers who are parents to drive home to log in and go again.
Sick days - lets say I've flu-like symptoms and I call in sick. Do I have to get a Covid test? If I'm waiting 5/6 days for the result of that, am I using up all my sick leave? This might seem like a selfish or greedy attitude, but I'm thinking more of those who will opt not to call in sick if they think it will eat into their leave
I'm sure I'll think of more tomorrow but it's late. As I said, looking for answers, not just wishing to highlight problems
For breaks, some kids (and their teachers) could have their break after period 2, while others go on to period 3. The ones going on to period 3 would have their break at the end of period 3, so everyone would be going on to period 4 at the same time.
I can see set classrooms working for first years, base classes could be assigned based on options chosen. Students could be put in options they didn’t chose to facilitate this. It would not be popular though. It would be a big problem for us for older classes. I presume in some schools students are in the same group for english, Irish, maths, which would help, but our students are all over the place depending on level. It would be very unsettling for students to have to move to a different teacher in 3rd or 6th year.
If we don’t have use of the staff room, and don’t have a classroom either, I don’t know what teachers will do for lunchtime. Realistically, a lot of extra cleaning would be needed too. With no teacher in charge of a room, it’s going to get in a mess between classes.
Concessions will have to be made on sick leave. And the supply of a sub on the first day of sick leave. Deis plans will have to be rewritten so that attendance isn’t prized above all.
Masks and hand sanitizer for all in the staff room/work room. Staff meetings online, even if from our classrooms. Parent teacher meetings won’t be happening any time soon.
So cost wise, that required subs, cleaners, hand sanitizer and tests.0 -
Random sample wrote: »For breaks, some kids (and their teachers) could have their break after period 2, while others go on to period 3. The ones going on to period 3 would have their break at the end of period 3, so everyone would be going on to period 4 at the same time.
I can see set classrooms working for first years, base classes could be assigned based on options chosen. Students could be put in options they didn’t chose to facilitate this. It would not be popular though. It would be a big problem for us for older classes. I presume in some schools students are in the same group for english, Irish, maths, which would help, but our students are all over the place depending on level. It would be very unsettling for students to have to move to a different teacher in 3rd or 6th year.
If we don’t have use of the staff room, and don’t have a classroom either, I don’t know what teachers will do for lunchtime. Realistically, a lot of extra cleaning would be needed too. With no teacher in charge of a room, it’s going to get in a mess between classes.
Concessions will have to be made on sick leave. And the supply of a sub on the first day of sick leave. Deis plans will have to be rewritten so that attendance isn’t prized above all.
Masks and hand sanitizer for all in the staff room/work room. Staff meetings online, even if from our classrooms. Parent teacher meetings won’t be happening any time soon.
So cost wise, that required subs, cleaners, hand sanitizer and tests.
Thanks for the reply. I still can't figure out how the breaks will work, but that's more about me not being able to process it, not your explanation. However, I'm now thinking that post primary schools may be better starting 15mins later in the morning and foregoing the small break. That or the students would be permitted to have a small snack at the end of period 4 while still in their classroom? Some schools don't have a morning break so won't need to consider this.
Re: base classrooms never even thought about the fact that you correctly mention that for option subjects you would still have moving about. Indeed you will have some schools with streamed classes, even at JC level. Yes they could revert to mixed ability for first years and keep them all in the same room, but what about the 2nd and 3rds who are already in class groups?
Re: my own team teaching point, I am only just thinking now that it can happen that the team teacher in the room is not qualified in the subject they are there to team teach, so splitting the class in that case isnt really fair on student or on the unqualified teacher.
Lunch breaks - good point, hadn't thought that there will be nowhere safe to even eat the packed lunch in the building. It'll be in our cars I suppose. I'm alright with that - will probably get more peace anyway!! Anyone who cycles or takes public transport better have something worked out for the rainy days though!0 -
NAPD calling for covid assistants to be employed in schools, not a bad idea and would definitely help with some of the practical obstacles that have been raised.
Plenty of people out of work would be happy to have an opportunity like this but as always it's going to cost money. They are talking of appointing or reallocating, hoping it's the former so that at least there's some job creation rather than number fudging with existing staff.
Be interesting to see if this is introduced, hopefully everything will be ironed out over the coming weeks.0 -
Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »NAPD calling for covid assistants to be employed in schools, not a bad idea and would definitely help with some of the practical obstacles that have been raised.
Plenty of people out of work would be happy to have an opportunity like this but as always it's going to cost money. They are talking of appointing or reallocating, hoping it's the former so that at least there's some job creation rather than number fudging with existing staff.
Be interesting to see if this is introduced, hopefully everything will be ironed out over the coming weeks.
Did they give any information as to what the duties of the Covid assistant would be?0 -
Random sample wrote: »I can see set classrooms working for first years, base classes could be assigned based on options chosen. Students could be put in options they didn’t chose to facilitate this. It would not be popular though. It would be a big problem for us for older classes. I presume in some schools students are in the same group for english, Irish, maths, which would help, but our students are all over the place depending on level. It would be very unsettling for students to have to move to a different teacher in 3rd or 6th year.
Would supervision/insurance be a problem with base classes? Presumably when the teachers are moving about the school that means that the kids will be unsupervised during that transition. I'm primary so I don't know about the rules in secondary but it would be a big problem for us.0 -
BonsaiKitten wrote: »Would supervision/insurance be a problem with base classes? Presumably when the teachers are moving about the school that means that the kids will be unsupervised during that transition. I'm primary so I don't know about the rules in secondary but it would be a big problem for us.
Also primary and hate indoor supervision because of this fear. Can't be supervising.4 rooms at once.0 -
wirelessdude01 wrote: »Did they give any information as to what the duties of the Covid assistant would be?
Without knowing what the proposed duties of the covid assistant is I’d rather the sub issue , ppe, sick leave questions and guidelines around immunocompromised children and staff be addressed first.0 -
lulublue22 wrote: »Without knowing what the proposed duties of the covid assistant is I’d rather the sub issue , ppe, sick leave questions and guidelines around immunocompromised children and staff be addressed first.
The appointment of a Covid-19 assistant to implement and monitor full public health guidelines.0 -
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wirelessdude01 wrote: »The appointment of a Covid-19 assistant to implement and monitor full public health guidelines.
Interesting - though how will it work in practical terms in school ?0
This discussion has been closed.
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