How will schools be able to go back in September?

Treppen

Lillyfae wrote: »

Thanks for the clear explanation, and for your work in trying to get the children back to school. It's true that the public and media are pointing the finger at teachers, but teachers are pointing the finger at the BoMs aswell as the departments,

What? That's a new one on me?
Why would any teacher be blaming the boms when they know damm well it all boils down to the department. No BOM is going to ignore HSE advice, especially in absence of DofEd advice.
Some people will do anything to have a moan against teachers.

Lillyfae wrote: »

and I truly think it's up to the unions to get in there on the case of the DoE.

So are you supporting the current unions' position outlined in those meetings. Are they getting on the case enough?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/doubts-about-a-full-return-to-schools-in-late-augustseptember-are-heard-at-oireachtas-meeting-39335343.html

BonsaiKitten

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Who on here has pointed a finger at the BoM? Their hands are totally tied. Back to the department again for instructions.

Agreed. All of this comes back to the Dept. Not the principal, not the board, not the parish, not the class teacher.. the DoE. They are our employers, not the individual schools. If they want the schools back open for all (which I want too) then they need to provide a workable plan and the funding to put it into action.

Smacruairi

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Agreed. All of this comes back to the Dept. They are our employers, not the individual schools. If they want the schools back open for all (which I want too) then they need to provide a workable plan and the funding to put it into action.

Well technically the BOM is your employer, and the DES is your paymaster, just to make it awkward and complicated.. Especially when it's not the BOM who inspects you but the DES, but that's splitting hairs!

I appreciate parents getting antsy about kids being away from the building, we all do. Just everyone stay off twitter is my suggestion, I deleted mine for my own sanity and it's been great (until I got sucked back in here)

History Queen

jrosen wrote: »

Im back to work, we cant social distance and we have no additional staff. Yes we have access to soap and water, masks and face shields.

This has been said for ages now on this thread when teachers focus on social distancing. There are many industries where social distancing is not possible at all. A work around has to be found in order for those business to get back. Schools wont and cant be any different, a work around has to be found.

Its actually crazy that its almost mid july with no guidance.

A work around though would presumably include things thay you have been provided with such as access to soap and water, masks, face shields etc.

I agree that social distancing isn't workable with the full cohort of students in school. But when the Dept won't commit to paying for those additional measures. What do we do then?

BonsaiKitten

Smacruairi wrote: »

Well technically the BOM is your employer, and the DES is your paymaster, just to make it awkward and complicated.. Especially when it's not the BOM who inspects you but the DES, but that's splitting hairs!

I appreciate parents getting antsy about kids being away from the building, we all do. Just everyone stay off twitter is my suggestion, I deleted mine for my own sanity and it's been great (until I got sucked back in here)

God could you imagine the board trying to inspect...and we thought the State inspectorate are bad!

Yeah it has been a long time off school for everyone involved. People are nervous about Sept which is understandable.

jrosen

History Queen wrote: »

A work around though would presumably include things thay you have been provided with such as access to soap and water, masks, face shields etc.

I agree that social distancing isn't workable with the full cohort of students in school. But when the Dept won't commit to paying for those additional measures. What do we do then?

Maybe they are expecting teachers to buy their own masks and sanitizer?

Lillyfae

Smacruairi wrote: »

I agree, but these conversations are not being had by calm heads on a rational basis. You only have to look at the debaclr of the pubs open.. And now everyone throwing a fit because the guidelines aren't being followed. We have brought in a risk assessment medical officer to look at the school next week for distances etc. You don't stick that on your website for all to see until he makes a recommendation like. I just think everyone needs to delete twitter, and not give the Ciara Kelly types any oxygen.

I agree with the above poster too, I think all of society will have to make a choice with schools, you're going into a bit of a danger zone, it's your choice. Most will, but then something has to be in place to support those who don't, staff and student and parent alike. I don't know how that looks though other than the DES formally providing centralised remote lessons.

Also the unions are on at the DES, that's why you had 2 newspapers come out swinging against the unions this week.. (could be a tin foil hat though!)

Genuinely, I appreciate you and a few others for your rationale. But parents who had engagement and those who had none are at their wits end. If everyone had given the same effort throughout all this I don't think parents would be as afraid of blended learning as they are. Some on here would have you believe they were online teaching and correcting from 7am to 9pm every single day and that all of their colleagues were putting in exactly the same. That is patently not true, and the total denial of it really got up my nose.

Apologies if I've been a bit short at times, just as some of the teachers on here have a nasty attitude towards parents (and the public in general), the number who are just trying to get back to work and going above in beyond in order to do so far exceeds. I hope your concerns and conditions are properly addressed as soon as possible. And since I don't have Twitter my opinions are my own, thanks for educating me at times aswell. Lifelong learning, wha?

daithi7

Imho, nphet & the dept have made a mess of this from the off.

Firstly, kids under 12 aren't a covid risk at all (of either getting the infection or spreading it), therefore all primary schools should just go back pretty much as is, bar maybe controlling adults access to the school & extra hand sanitation and a bit of desk spacing.

Secondary students carry more testosterone & therfore have to be managed better and social distancing, extra hygiene, restricting visitors and facemasks should be the norm imho.

Then particularly at risk kids should be facilitated by video link and remote learning tools.

Job done, get back to school and less prevarication and pandering to the stuck in the mud public sector unions.... they're only ever after another pay day anyway!!

BonsaiKitten

Lillyfae wrote: »

Genuinely, I appreciate you and a few others for your rationale. But parents who had engagement and those who had none are at their wits end. If everyone had given the same effort throughout all this I don't think parents would be as afraid of blended learning as they are. Some on here would have you believe they were online teaching and correcting from 7am to 9pm every single day and that all of their colleagues were putting in exactly the same. That is patently not true, and the total denial of it really got up my nose.

Apologies if I've been a bit short at times, just as some of the teachers on here have a nasty attitude towards parents (and the public in general), the number who are just trying to get back to work and going above in beyond in order to do so far exceeds. I hope your concerns and conditions are properly addressed as soon as possible. And since I don't have Twitter my opinions are my own, thanks for educating me at times aswell. Lifelong learning, wha?

Does that not again come back to the Dept? They have the power to issue circulars that all schools must abide by. No doubt the coverage in schools varied but without explicit instructions from the Dept it was bound to happen. Same will happen again if no firm guidelines and funding appear for September reopening.

Lillyfae

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Does that not again come back to the Dept? They have the power to issue circulars that all schools must abide by. No doubt the coverage in schools varied but without explicit instructions from the Dept it was bound to happen. Same will happen again if no firm guidelines and funding appear for September reopening.

Yes, and every teacher in the country should have a school issued device for f sake. It's just backward!

Boggles

daithi7 wrote: »

Firstly, kids under 12 aren't a covid risk at all (of either getting the infection or spreading it),

Sorry, what?

Smacruairi

Lillyfae wrote: »

Genuinely, I appreciate you and a few others for your rationale. But parents who had engagement and those who had none are at their wits end. If everyone had given the same effort throughout all this I don't think parents would be as afraid of blended learning as they are. Some on here would have you believe they were online teaching and correcting from 7am to 9pm every single day and that all of their colleagues were putting in exactly the same. That is patently not true, and the total denial of it really got up my nose.

Apologies if I've been a bit short at times, just as some of the teachers on here have a nasty attitude towards parents (and the public in general), the number who are just trying to get back to work and going above in beyond in order to do so far exceeds. I hope your concerns and conditions are properly addressed as soon as possible. And since I don't have Twitter my opinions are my own, thanks for educating me at times aswell. Lifelong learning, wha?

Agreed, we are all at wits end. I just don't understand why people still don't understand that it is a department thing and not a school thing. If all parents are having the same issues with all schools, then surely then you go to the organisation over the schools. That's just the logic surely?

As for remote teaching, just ask any teacher their opinion on it. We really really really don't want to have to go through that again. But you'd have thought that the govt would have heard the very mixed feedback and maybe said "hey, from now on, everyone is following this one lesson guide for thr month of September, all your local class teachers are doing the follow up" through their own local arrangement, but nah, they couldn't even take that suggestion or something similar on board.

It's really a money issue, and until people realise that, we are just arguing over deck chairs on the titanic.

History Queen

daithi7 wrote: »

Imho, nphet & the dept have made a mess of this from the off.

Firstly, kids under 12 aren't a covid risk at all (of either getting the infection or spreading it), therefore all primary schools should just go back pretty much as is, bar maybe controlling adults access to the school & extra hand sanitation and a bit of desk spacing.

Secondary students carry more testosterone & therfore have to be managed better and social distancing, extra hygiene, restricting visitors and facemasks should be the norm imho.

Then particularly at risk kids should be facilitated by video link and remote learning tools.

Job done, get back to school and less prevarication and pandering to the stuck in the mud public sector unions.... they're only ever after another pay day anyway!!

I don't think you're correct that children under 12 aren't a risk at all.

All the things you suggest for secondary (not sure what you mean by them carrying more testosterone?) is what unions are looking for.

Not sure we have infrastructure for video link (or if it is possible to allow video of under 18s under current data protection guidelines) but some sort of remote learning programme must be solidified if vulnerable students cannot be accomodated safely.

Not sure what pay day you think the unions are looking for? You seem grossly misinformed about the situation if that is your honest belief .

wirelessdude01

Lillyfae wrote: »

Genuinely, I appreciate you and a few others for your rationale. But parents who had engagement and those who had none are at their wits end. If everyone had given the same effort throughout all this I don't think parents would be as afraid of blended learning as they are. Some on here would have you believe they were online teaching and correcting from 7am to 9pm every single day and that all of their colleagues were putting in exactly the same. That is patently not true, and the total denial of it really got up my nose.

Apologies if I've been a bit short at times, just as some of the teachers on here have a nasty attitude towards parents (and the public in general), the number who are just trying to get back to work and going above in beyond in order to do so far exceeds. I hope your concerns and conditions are properly addressed as soon as possible. And since I don't have Twitter my opinions are my own, thanks for educating me at times aswell. Lifelong learning, wha?

Think you'll find that those of us who are teachers on here are posting from knowledge of what we ourselves are doing and also those of our colleagues. We don't speak for the profession as a whole. Personally I was contactable by my children and parents from about 7am to 11am. I often received emails in the middle of the night from parents when they got home from work. I felt it was only right that I was flexible in my approach. Every school and indeed every teacher within them are individuals and approach things differently.

One of the things I want from the department, whenever they bother to grace us with some proper guidance and guidelines, are what they want and require under different scenarios. This way students, parents and teachers are all aware and there should be a more uniform approach across the board from everyone. Should stop the stories of school A doing whatever and school B doing it differently. Within reason schools can adapt things to suit their situation. Things such as what happens if a Covid case occurs within a school, what happens with immunocompromised children and staff, these scenarios have to follow a common theme across the country and need to come from the department and no one else.

Lyle

daithi7 wrote: »

Firstly, kids under 12 aren't a covid risk at all (of either getting the infection or spreading it)

In Ireland:
<1 years old - 53 cases
1 - 4 years old - 121 cases
5 - 14 years old - 329 cases

There's been cases in nurseries and schools in various countries. All humans are susceptible to Covid19, irrespective of age.

downthemiddle

meeeeh wrote: »

Hand sanitiser? I am sure that can be arranged. Half (probably most) of Europe was back to school without major issues.This is ideological fight not about the best interests of kids.

Like a game of Whack-a-Mole invariably another one pops up.

lulublue22

jrosen wrote: »

Maybe they are expecting teachers to buy their own masks and sanitizer?

I’m ordering 3 cloth masks for school and I’ll be bring washing up gloves from home. Sanitizer will be provided by school.

wirelessdude01

One thing that hasn't popped up for discussion on this thread, is what do people think will happen when the inevitable occurs next school year with a teacher calling in sick and no sub available? Children to be met at the door and sent straight home?

Also on subs, how do schools manage the revolving door of subs during the year that go from school to school every day?

One solution could be to allocate an extra teacher to every school for every 5 teachers that they have. When not needed to cover teacher absences they could be used for additional SET needs.

Just a thought but will never happen as it all costs money plus to be honest I don't think there are that many spare teachers about anyway. Teachers are well aware of how all those doctors and nurses that answered the call to come home and help your country were actually treated.

lulublue22

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

One thing that hasn't popped up for discussion on this thread, is what do people think will happen when the inevitable occurs next school year with a teacher calling in sick and no sub available? Children to be met at the door and sent straight home?

Also on subs, how do schools manage the revolving door of subs during the year that go from school to school every day?

One solution could be to allocate an extra teacher to every school for every 5 teachers that they have. When not needed to cover teacher absences they could be used for additional SET needs.

Just a thought but will never happen as it all costs money plus to be honest I don't think there are that many spare teachers about anyway. Teachers are well aware of how all those doctors and nurses that answered the call to come home and help your country were actually treated.

Can’t see children being sent home if no sub going down well and if the poor teacher gets a run of illnesses ( which happens to me every few years - I have a couple of years with nothing and then a year that I pick up everything going) they will be lynched.

Think INTO were on today about expanding the pilot sub panel scheme nation wide. not sure of the details but might be interesting. Can’t see every school getting an additional teacher based on every 5 staff don’t think there are enough staff or the political will to do so.

the corpo

As an aside, are the, however vague they may be, plans from the Department based on their aspirational square footage per classroom (I forget if it's 40 sqm or 60 sqm)?

Or on the actual median class size in the country? Our own school thankfully moved into slightly bigger premises a couple of years ago, but before that we'd been in half size prefabs, which were one third the Departments regulation size. Could barely shoe-horn 25 kids in as it was, never mind any pretence at social distancing. I imagine many other premises are similar.

wirelessdude01

lulublue22 wrote: »

Can’t see children being sent home if no sub going down well and if the poor teacher gets a run of illnesses ( which happens to me every few years - I have a couple of years with nothing and then a year that I pick up everything going) they will be lynched.

Think INTO were on today about expanding the pilot sub panel scheme nation wide. not sure of the details but might be interesting. Can’t see every school getting an additional teacher based on every 5 staff don’t think there are enough staff or the political will to do so.

Usual thing then is to split the class into the other classes for the day. Makes a mockery of the whole pod and/or bubble thing which has been kinda suggested.

wirelessdude01

the corpo wrote: »

As an aside, are the, however vague they may be, plans from the Department based on their aspirational square footage per classroom (I forget if it's 40 sqm or 60 sqm)?

Or on the actual median class size in the country? Our own school thankfully moved into slightly bigger premises a couple of years ago, but before that we'd been in half size prefabs, which were one third the Departments regulation size. Could barely shoe-horn 25 kids in as it was, never mind any pretence at social distancing. I imagine many other premises are similar.

I doubt they have even thought that far ahead.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Normally students/teachers wud try work thro a head cold or flu-like symptoms.

Can't do that anymore. Need for subs will be high next year and were tough enough to find as it was.

BonsaiKitten

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Usual thing then is to split the class into the other classes for the day. Makes a mockery of the whole pod and/or bubble thing which has been kinda suggested.

Yep, that or put the SEN teacher into the room. Also makes a mockery of the bubble idea and has the added bonus of denying SEN children the support they need!

I've been thinking about what might happen if/when a teacher is ill too. I honestly don't know what the answer is. According to that draft guidance staff are not to come to work if they've symptoms of Covid (and have to confirm on arrival every day that they don't have symptoms) - if it's anything like last Christmas the entire staff room will be empty in my school!

wirelessdude01

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Yep, that or put the SEN teacher into the room. Also makes a mockery of the bubble idea and has the added bonus of denying SEN children the support they need!

I've been thinking about what might happen if/when a teacher is ill too. I honestly don't know what the answer is. According to that draft guidance staff are not to come to work if they've symptoms of Covid (and have to confirm on arrival every day that they don't have symptoms) - if it's anything like last Christmas the entire staff room will be empty in my school!

Once again, back to the department for guidance.

Retired teachers, many of whom would be in the 'at risk' category, are going to come under severe pressure to return to the classroom during the next school year.

HerrKuehn

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Yep, that or put the SEN teacher into the room. Also makes a mockery of the bubble idea and has the added bonus of denying SEN children the support they need!

I've been thinking about what might happen if/when a teacher is ill too. I honestly don't know what the answer is. According to that draft guidance staff are not to come to work if they've symptoms of Covid (and have to confirm on arrival every day that they don't have symptoms) - if it's anything like last Christmas the entire staff room will be empty in my school!

Surely there needs to be prompt covid testing in schools if someone (teacher or student) has symptoms. In the case where it is negative, it is treated as normal when a teacher has a cold or whatever else. When it is positive presumably the school will need to shut for a couple of weeks. In this case I would prefer to try make the time up during holidays rather than go for remote teaching, especially for primary kids.

khalessi

jrosen wrote: »

Maybe they are expecting teachers to buy their own masks and sanitizer?

I already have cloth face masks and a box of med masks.

BonsaiKitten

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Surely there needs to be prompt covid testing in schools if someone (teacher or student) has symptoms. In the case where it is negative, it is treated as normal when a teacher has a cold or whatever else. When it is positive presumably the school will need to shut for a couple of weeks. In this case I would prefer to try make the time up during holidays rather than go for remote teaching, especially for primary kids.

Apparently schools will have the right to refuse students with symptoms. Now how practical that is I don't know (imagine how well it will go down with parents?). This is provisional guidance so we'll have to see whether that makes it into the final version.

jrosen

Im shaking my head here knowing there will be no common sense approach.

The guidelines currently are to stay home if you have any symptoms, this is across the board. I have heard comments like "the days of coming to work with a sniffle are over" well unless the state is going to pay for every person who misses a day this simply wont happen. People will self medicate and go to work covering up whatever they may have if they alternative is no pay.

The same with schools. Its all well and good saying the teacher cant come in sick but when there is no alternative? Who takes the class? Its not sustainable to split the kids all the time teachers isn't in. The teacher may need to stay home because her own kids are sick. I can imagine the absences in most professions will be on the rise.

There needs to be a well thought out plan, with contingencies in place for when things go wrong.

lulublue22

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Normally students/teachers wud try work thro a head cold or flu-like symptoms.

Can't do that anymore. Need for subs will be high next year and we're tough enough to find as it was.

This is going to be a huge problem next year- we had a bad run of coughs colds flu like illnesses last year. Dep really need to get their finger out on that one. Likewise children coming into school ill is a big issue. I do think dep will need to crack down on that. We have the same kids who are sent in regardless.