Tiered Championship

Farawayhome · 13-05-2019 4:19pm #1

I watched in amazement at Brolly last night on the Sunday Game. He was claiming the argument was won to introduce not just a two tiered championship but a three tiered one! What was his justification? Leitrim getting a hammering off Roscommon. A huge amount of issues with this.
Firstly, I remember Joe talking about removing Roscommon from the top tier last year! Next, Joe ignored all the other division 4 teams who played over the weekend when claiming this argument was won. Limerick destroyed Tipperary, Waterford only lost to Clare by a point, Wicklow ran Kildare to two points, last week London lost to Galway by 4 and of course he didn't say anything when his own county gave Tyrone a good match. Also, division 3 Offaly should have beaten Meath, a division 1 team next year.
Then Joe was going on about respect and giving these counties a platform. To believe this would happen, you'd have to ignore that the Sunday Game showed nothing from the Joe McDonagh Cup, not one second.

ArnoldJRimmer · 13-05-2019 4:29pm

How anyone still listens to this man, let alone take him seriously, I just don't understand. We needed Joanne there last night to tell him to stfu. Like a broken record, and its the same condescending rubbish all the time. And of course ignored the games where division four teams either won or were close to 'top tier' opposition

NabyLadistheman · 13-05-2019 4:38pm

Good luck getting tickets with 3 finals on the one day :rolleyes:

shockframe · 13-05-2019 5:22pm

What was worse about this broken record rant was that he totally ignored any analysis of Roscommon and Leitrim and just launched straight into tiered championship stuff.

Keep that for a podcast or somesuch. The job on the night is to go through the games over the weekend.

Always_Running · 13-05-2019 5:42pm

Ah yes a tiered championship let's go down that road like we did in Hurling with Nicky Rackard cup,Christy ring cup where results weren't even read out last night on the Sunday game.

The more i watch or read Brolly the more i am convinced that GAA HQ gives him money for every time he mentions/promotes a tiered championship.

The man isn't able to give match analysis for a former player he is pretty clueless to how the game is played or what tactics game plans are used in matches. He's attention seeker also and for some odd reason some still fine his tiresome routine interesting.

The main taking point of the weekend should have been that great win by Limerick against the odds and the competitive performances of Offaly,Wicklow,Waterford but no lets stick to agenda of removing those teams from the championship and people like Brolly can never talk about them again.

shockframe · 13-05-2019 5:47pm

Always_Running wrote: »

Ah yes a tiered championship let's go down that road like we did in Hurling with Nicky Rackard cup,Christy ring cup where results weren't even read out last night on the Sunday game.

The more i watch or read Brolly the more i am convinced that GAA HQ gives him money for every time he mentions/promotes a tiered championship.

The man isn't able to give match analysis for a former player he is pretty clueless to how the game is played or what tactics game plans are used in matches. He's attention seeker also and for some odd reason some still fine his tiresome routine interesting.

The main taking point of the weekend should have been that great win by Limerick against the odds and the competitive performances of Offaly,Wicklow,Waterford but no lets stick to agenda of removing those teams from the championship and people like Brolly can never talk about them again.

What's worse is that he never stops moaning about the state of football compared to the halcyon days of yore and never is shy of a dig at Sky. The same Sky who have been light years ahead of RTE when it comes to analysts such as McGuiness, Horan and Canavan.

Farawayhome · 13-05-2019 6:55pm

There's a campaign ongoing for this. Paul Geaney was just on the news pushing it. This will not be good for Gaelic Football in the counties that get demoted. It has to be stopped.

Laois_Man · 13-05-2019 10:58pm

So, they basically want the national league played twice a year

Nonsense!

Fr Tod Umptious · 14-05-2019 12:05am

I've see more in the media from players/managers/pundits etc calling for it or saying that it's inevitable than in pervious years.

And it seems to be a hot topic straight off the bat.

One would be forgiven for thinking it was orchestrated.

As for a multi tier championship itself it's worth a try but as I have said here before a team has to start and finish the year in the same division.

None of this starting in the big championship and then going down to the lesser one once beaten, as the Tommy Murphy Cup was.
Teams have no love for that sort of thing.

And so what if there is little or no TV coverage.
People have no interest for lesser quality sport as it is.
Let it be for the teams and their fans.

WillieMason · 14-05-2019 1:22am

shockframe wrote: »

What was worse about this broken record rant was that he totally ignored any analysis of Roscommon and Leitrim and just launched straight into tiered championship stuff.

Keep that for a podcast or somesuch. The job on the night is to go through the games over the weekend.

Once again he doesnt do any analysis of the game just goes off on a rant

OldMrBrennan83 · 14-05-2019 6:05am

It's being pushed so they can forget about most of the teams in the country altogether, like they've done with hurling.

Fr Tod Umptious · 14-05-2019 7:06am

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

It's being pushed so they can forget about most of the teams in the country altogether, like they've done with hurling.

But what is there to forget about ?

Most people forgot about Louth, Wicklow, Leitrim etc long ago.
They never got anything other than a mention on The Sunday Game or elsewhere.

And I'd argue that the system in hurling has enhanced the visibility of some teams.
Growing up in Mayo in the '80s I was totally unaware of the existence of a Mayo hurling team.
In the 2010s the Mayo hurling team.are winning national level senior titles.

Same goes for Kerry, hurling has not had as high a profile in Kerry since the turn of the last century.

The people who bemaon what will become of the smaller counties are like the people on the John Delaney thread in Soccer complaining about how JD has done little for the LOI.

The same people would not bother to watch a LOI game but love to complain and act concerned.

Here they talk about the plight of the smaller counties but would not watch Wicklow v Carlow for a full 70+ minutes if you paid them.

OldMrBrennan83 · 14-05-2019 7:10am

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But what is there to forget about ?

Most people forgot about Louth, Wicklow, Leitrim etc long ago.
They never got anything other than a mention on The Sunday Game or elsewhere.

And I'd argue that the system in hurling has enhanced the visibility of some teams.
Growing up in Mayo in the '80s I was totally unaware of the existence of a Mayo hurling team.
In the 2010s the Mayo hurling team.are winning national level senior titles.

Same goes for Kerry, hurling has not had as high a profile in Kerry since the turn of the last century.

The people who bemaon what will become of the smaller counties are like the people on the John Delaney thread in Soccer complaining about how JD has done little for the LOI.

The same people would not bother to watch a LOI game but love to complain and act concerned.

Here they talk about the plight of the smaller counties but would not watch Wicklow v Carlow for a full 70+ minutes if you paid them.

The hurling system is a great job for teams/supporters involved with the **** teams, don't get me wrong, but there's no chance there's better exposure because of it.

Fr Tod Umptious · 14-05-2019 7:14am

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

The hurling system is a great job for teams/supporters involved with the **** teams, don't get me wrong, but there's no chance there's better exposure because of it.

But it's not about exposure.

It's about teams competing at a level they can compete at and having a real chance of improving and advancing to the next level.

OldMrBrennan83 · 14-05-2019 7:16am

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But it's not about exposure.

It's about teams competing at a level they can compete at and having a real chance of improving and advancing to the next level.

Exposure is part of what will improve these teams. I'm not talking about live games, or even highlights as that does need to be earned. But the national broadcaster could give up ten seconds to give results.

grbear · 14-05-2019 3:34pm

Exposure and media coverage, or at least the promise of it, is what gets money out of sponsors. Pat McDonagh might like Galway GAA but Supermacs aren't committing up to €400,000 a year to Galway out of the goodness of his heart. The new championship structures means they'll probably feature in a lot of televised games until things change again. They were almost certainly the most watched county overall last year and barring a major shock this weekend they are going to have been shown live 4 times by the middle of June this year.

Bonniedog · 14-05-2019 4:22pm

Without being a hurling snob, there is a much bigger gap between the top ten in hurling, as represented by the ten Liam McCarthy teams, and the rest than there is in football. And you could discount Dublin, Wexford, Carlow as having a chance of winning it, and really five that you would consider putting money on.

So it makes sense to have a reasonably competitive senior tier one. I really don't see the same argument for football as even last weekend proved that there can be upsets. Limerick are not going to win Munster or qualify for the eights but their Summer just got longer.

Farawayhome · 14-05-2019 4:25pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But it's not about exposure.

It's about teams competing at a level they can compete at and having a real chance of improving and advancing to the next level.

You mean division3 and 4 teams being separated from the rest? Did you miss the weekends action? All division 3 and 4 teams showed they can compete against teams from the top two divisions, except for Leitrim. They'll improve by playing games of a higher standard, not the opposite way around. Players in these counties will have no interest in playing in the lower tier. It will be an absolute disaster and very damaging for the counties confined to the lower tier.

OldMrBrennan83 · 14-05-2019 4:27pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

You mean division3 and 4 teams being separated from the rest? Did you miss the weekends action? All division 3 and 4 teams showed they can compete against teams from the top two divisions. They'll improve by playing games of a higher standard, not the opposite way around. Players in these counties will have no interest in playing in the lower tier. It will be an absolute disaster and very damaging for the counties confined to the lower tier.

If it was being split it would need to be 8-24 or 6-26, not 16-16 if people are talking about competitiveness.

Farawayhome · 14-05-2019 4:31pm

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

If it was being split it would need to be 8-24 or 6-26, not 16-16 if people are talking about competitiveness.

Yeah, that's the truth. There's probably a top 6 and then there's not that big a gap between the rest. The focus should be on improving the 26 to catch up on the 6, not make things harder for them.

blowitupref · 14-05-2019 6:32pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But it's not about exposure.

It's about teams competing at a level they can compete at and having a real chance of improving and advancing to the next level.

NFL is already in place for that and GAA heads should have sense to make NFL more important with more exposure than this country wide road show to get a tiered championship in place.

ArnoldJRimmer · 14-05-2019 6:43pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But it's not about exposure.

It's about teams competing at a level they can compete at and having a real chance of improving and advancing to the next level.

Its about the GAA making more money by having Dublin play Mayo and Kerry more frequently during the summer months.

I'm not opposed to some sort of restructure, I think Jim McGuinness's idea a few years ago was workable, gave every team at least one chance at the top prize, gave the National League the standing it deserves, but also lower tier teams a chance at a big day out at the end of the year

But lets not kid ourselves, the motivation is money and nothing else, same as the Super 8's

Fr Tod Umptious · 14-05-2019 8:03pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

You mean division3 and 4 teams being separated from the rest? Did you miss the weekends action? All division 3 and 4 teams showed they can compete against teams from the top two divisions, except for Leitrim. They'll improve by playing games of a higher standard, not the opposite way around. Players in these counties will have no interest in playing in the lower tier. It will be an absolute disaster and very damaging for the counties confined to the lower tier.

So you are basing the competitiveness of Div 3 and Div 4 teams on one weekend, the first weekend, of games ?

Ignoring the statistics about how they fare against Div 1 and Div 2 teams in the championship
Thomas O' Se offered a stat on the Sunday Game last weekend about Div 4 teams winning v higher opposition, it was a crazy number, I'll go back and find it.

Teams that are always bad in any sport are always bad.
That's just the way it is
Playing them in outdated regional competitions for a championship they will never have a hope of wining is doing no one any good.
Barring a flash in the pan every decade or so the same bad teams

Farawayhome · 14-05-2019 8:08pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

So you are basing the competitiveness of Div 3 and Div 4 teams on one weekend, the first weekend, of games ?

Ignoring the statistics about how they fare against Div 1 and Div 2 teams in the championship
Thomas O' Se offered a stat on the Sunday Game last weekend about Div 4 teams winning v higher opposition, it was a crazy number, I'll go back and find it.

Teams that are always bad in any sport are always bad.
That's just the way it is
Playing them in outdated regional competitions for a championship they will never have a hope of wining is doing no one any good.
Barring a flash in the pan every decade or so the same bad teams

So now you just want to get rid of about 8 counties and leave the rest in? What difference would that make?

Fr Tod Umptious · 15-05-2019 12:10am

The stat that Thomas O Se came up with on The Sunday Game was that only 17 times in over 2,100 games has a Div 4 team beaten a team from Div 1 or Div 2.

How can anyone say the lower ranked teams need to continue to play the higher ranked ones to get better, cos based on that stat it just ain't working.

Bass Reeves · 15-05-2019 12:11am

Bonniedog wrote: »

Without being a hurling snob, there is a much bigger gap between the top ten in hurling, as represented by the ten Liam McCarthy teams, and the rest than there is in football. And you could discount Dublin, Wexford, Carlow as having a chance of winning it, and really five that you would consider putting money on.

So it makes sense to have a reasonably competitive senior tier one. I really don't see the same argument for football as even last weekend proved that there can be upsets. Limerick are not going to win Munster or qualify for the eights but their Summer just got longer.

But when those to ten teams play each other most of the games are very competitive. The same cannot be said for football. Every few years you get an upset where 1-2 teams qualify for the quarter finals or even a semi final. A three tiered championship would allow for groups of 10-12 with promotion up and down.

Top tier two groups of 5 with top two teams in each group playing semi and bottom four teams playing a relegation battle with two to go down. 4and 5 from each group play each other and lose relegated.

2nd and 3rd tier two groups of six with finalists promoted and and relegation playoffs for teams 5&6. Would not agree with Brolly that finals played on same day demand for tickets would be crazy. But they could be played on the Saturday before the final at a provincal venue decided at start of the year. Can you imagine the crowd if tier2&3 finals were on at Mchale park, Pairc Ui Coimhe, or Clones in late August.

The 4 relegation playoff could be played at provincal venues as well as double headers on Saturday evenings. Games to be played off no replays

Bonniedog · 15-05-2019 12:26am

I suppose my argument could be used both ways if you look at it from that perspective.

Hurling has certainly hit on a good formula - so it is certain to be changed!

My point, perhaps badly put , is that you could imagine a division three football team putting it up to a Division 2 or even 1 team. Offaly v Meath last weekend being example.

It is impossible to imagine Meath giving Dublin or Wexford a game, or Mayo contesting with Galway in hurling.

So football is a bit moreof a level playing field. Possibly mainly to the way the game is played. But the gap hasn't changed in most of the history of gaelic football, But still people remember the days when Leitrim won Connaught, Carlow won Leinster and Clare won Munster.

Mehapoy · 15-05-2019 2:09am

Always_Running wrote: »

Ah yes a tiered championship let's go down that road like we did in Hurling with Nicky Rackard cup,Christy ring cup where results weren't even read out last night on the Sunday game.

The more i watch or read Brolly the more i am convinced that GAA HQ gives him money for every time he mentions/promotes a tiered championship.

The man isn't able to give match analysis for a former player he is pretty clueless to how the game is played or what tactics game plans are used in matches. He's attention seeker also and for some odd reason some still fine his tiresome routine interesting.

The main taking point of the weekend should have been that great win by Limerick against the odds and the competitive performances of Offaly,Wicklow,Waterford but no lets stick to agenda of removing those teams from the championship and people like Brolly can never talk about them again.

In relation to the Tipp limerick game you could see he knew a little about Tipp but nothing at all about Limerick, he mixed them up for about 2 mins when he talked about limerick having a tough time in div 2, biggest blowhole of a pundit ever

Mehapoy · 15-05-2019 2:15am

Bonniedog wrote: »

Without being a hurling snob, there is a much bigger gap between the top ten in hurling, as represented by the ten Liam McCarthy teams, and the rest than there is in football. And you could discount Dublin, Wexford, Carlow as having a chance of winning it, and really five that you would consider putting money on.

So it makes sense to have a reasonably competitive senior tier one. I really don't see the same argument for football as even last weekend proved that there can be upsets. Limerick are not going to win Munster or qualify for the eights but their Summer just got longer.

But imagine limerick have a chance of winning a competition rather than hoping to stay on for a while before the inevitable beating, it changes the whole dynamic for the team, at least they'd have a chance of winning a competition and maybe playing in Croke park rather than being knocked out by one of the northern teams above in athlone or roscommon

Nic_Col · 15-05-2019 11:38am

Comparing with hurling falls down for two reasons; first, the level of coverage for the non tier 1 hurling competitions is utterly pathetic and a great argument against tiering football. And second, the demographics are not comparable, every county has a football club in most parishes, some county's have less than 5 hurling clubs.

A lack of common consensus is a major stumbling block. For every manager of a lower level county who complains about the lack of meaningful games with closely matched opponents you have another manager who is indignant at the prospect of losing the opportunity to go head to head with the very best teams.

Would love to see it happen though.

ArnoldJRimmer · 15-05-2019 3:09pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

The stat that Thomas O Se came up with on The Sunday Game was that only 17 times in over 2,100 games has a Div 4 team beaten a team from Div 1 or Div 2.

How can anyone say the lower ranked teams need to continue to play the higher ranked ones to get better, cos based on that stat it just ain't working.

For that stat to make any sense, it would have to be the same Division 4 teams for the period of time those games took place in. Plenty of teams from Division 4 have climbed through the divisions over the years, potentially gaining valuable experience from playing higher ranked teams in the championship along the way.

Farawayhome · 15-05-2019 4:01pm

ArnoldJRimmer wrote: »

For that stat to make any sense, it would have to be the same Division 4 teams for the period of time those games took place in. Plenty of teams from Division 4 have climbed through the divisions over the years, potentially gaining valuable experience from playing higher ranked teams in the championship along the way.

And those counties who improved their standards wouldn't have been able to if they were thrown out of the real championship.

manofwisdom · 15-05-2019 6:46pm

ArnoldJRimmer wrote: »

Its about the GAA making more money by having Dublin play Mayo and Kerry more frequently during the summer months.

I'm not opposed to some sort of restructure, I think Jim McGuinness's idea a few years ago was workable, gave every team at least one chance at the top prize, gave the National League the standing it deserves, but also lower tier teams a chance at a big day out at the end of the year

But lets not kid ourselves, the motivation is money and nothing else, same as the Super 8's

Without a doubt and as someone that loves and has given a lot my life to this sport i am fairly sickened by this carry on.

Fr Tod Umptious · 16-05-2019 10:42am

ArnoldJRimmer wrote: »

For that stat to make any sense, it would have to be the same Division 4 teams for the period of time those games took place in. Plenty of teams from Division 4 have climbed through the divisions over the years, potentially gaining valuable experience from playing higher ranked teams in the championship along the way.

I really don't know where he came up with that stat

But I did my own bit of research

I started at 2009 when Div 4 teams were readmitted to the qualifiers and went up to 2018

From 2009 to 2018 inclusive Div4 teams beat Div 1 or Div 2 teams on a whopping 8 occasions.

They were
2009
Antrim (1st Div 4) v Donegal (7th in Div 1) (UC)
Wicklow (5th Div 4) v Fermanagh (8th Div 2) (Q)

2010
Lonfgord (7th Div 4) v Mayo (5th Div 1) (Q)

2014
Tipp (1st Div 4) v Laois (5th Div 2) (Q)

2015
Antrim (3rd Div 4) v Laois (6th Div 2) (Q)

2018
Carlow (2nd Div 4) v Louth (8th Div 2) (LC)
Carlow (2nd Div 4) v Kildare (8th Div 1) (LC)
Leitrim (5th Div 4) v Louth (8th Div 2) (Q)

Now I did not count the number of games that Div 4 teams played but if you assume that each of the 8 teams played a minimum of 2 a year over the 10 season that would be about 160 games.

8 out of 160 is a 5% success rate.

And look at the type of teams they were beating

Carlow beat Louth in 2018, but Carlow were promoted to Div 3 and Louth were relegated to Div 3..

In 2009 Antrim win Div 4 and beat the team relegated from Div 1.
Wicklow (under Micko) beat the team relegated from Div 2.

The only real standout is the Longford win v Mayo in 2010. Mid table v Div 4 beating mid table Div 1.

Now the numbers for Div 3 teams v Div 1 and Div 2 teams does look better (approx 32 in the same period) but I have not had time to break that down any further

But the argument that lower ranked teams can improve by playing, and are improving because they are consistently playing, higher ranked teams is folly.

Farawayhome · 16-05-2019 3:04pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I really don't know where he came up with that stat

But I did my own bit of research

I started at 2009 when Div 4 teams were readmitted to the qualifiers and went up to 2018

From 2009 to 2018 inclusive Div4 teams beat Div 1 or Div 2 teams on a whopping 8 occasions.

They were
2009
Antrim (1st Div 4) v Donegal (7th in Div 1) (UC)
Wicklow (5th Div 4) v Fermanagh (8th Div 2) (Q)

2010
Lonfgord (7th Div 4) v Mayo (5th Div 1) (Q)

2014
Tipp (1st Div 4) v Laois (5th Div 2) (Q)

2015
Antrim (3rd Div 4) v Laois (6th Div 2) (Q)

2018
Carlow (2nd Div 4) v Louth (8th Div 2) (LC)
Carlow (2nd Div 4) v Kildare (8th Div 1) (LC)
Leitrim (5th Div 4) v Louth (8th Div 2) (Q)

Now I did not count the number of games that Div 4 teams played but if you assume that each of the 8 teams played a minimum of 2 a year over the 10 season that would be about 160 games.

8 out of 160 is a 5% success rate.

And look at the type of teams they were beating

Carlow beat Louth in 2018, but Carlow were promoted to Div 3 and Louth were relegated to Div 3..

In 2009 Antrim win Div 4 and beat the team relegated from Div 1.
Wicklow (under Micko) beat the team relegated from Div 2.

The only real standout is the Longford win v Mayo in 2010. Mid table v Div 4 beating mid table Div 1.

Now the numbers for Div 3 teams v Div 1 and Div 2 teams does look better (approx 32 in the same period) but I have not had time to break that down any further

But the argument that lower ranked teams can improve by playing, and are improving because they are consistently playing, higher ranked teams is folly.

You didn't understand his point. The same teams are not in division 4 all the time. Teams move up! For example, Derry were in their this year, first time in years. Westmeath and Laois were there, they are now in division 2, both of them have been Leinster finalists the past few years. Louth have been there, went up to division 2. Same with Longford, Tipperary were there in 2014, do you remember them in the All Ireland semi final? Clare were down there the same year. Roscommon were there this decade.
You're talking about the counties who are always in division 4. London, Wicklow, Waterford and the like. How many counties do you want to bin?

Fr Tod Umptious · 16-05-2019 6:31pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

You didn't understand his point. The same teams are not in division 4 all the time. Teams move up! For example, Derry were in their this year, first time in years. Westmeath and Laois were there, they are now in division 2, both of them have been Leinster finalists the past few years. Louth have been there, went up to division 2. Same with Longford, Tipperary were there in 2014, do you remember them in the All Ireland semi final? Clare were down there the same year. Roscommon were there this decade.
You're talking about the counties who are always in division 4. London, Wicklow, Waterford and the like. How many counties do you want to bin?

I don't what to "bin" any counties as you put it.
I want to see an attempt at restructuring the football championship.

Right now it's not fit for purpose for a high level multi million euro competition.

It's based on structures a century old

Why do Tyrone have to play twice as many games as Kerry to reach the same point ?

Why is it possible that for example Louth who beat Wexford at the weekend could end up in Round 1 of the qualifiers along with Wexford.

What reward do they get for actually winning a game ?

It needs a massive overhaul

OldMrBrennan83 · 16-05-2019 6:36pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I don't what to "bin" any counties as you put it.
I want to see an attempt at restructuring the football championship.

Right now it's not fit for purpose for a high level multi million euro competition.

It's based on structures a century old

Why do Tyrone have to play twice as many games as Kerry to reach the same point ?

Why is it possible that for example Louth who beat Wexford at the weekend could end up in Round 1 of the qualifiers along with Wexford.

What reward do they get for actually winning a game ?

It needs a massive overhaul

Provinces have got to go. There's no other way around it than that but it's also the biggest stumbling block to proper change. That's why they'll continue to faff about with back doors and quarter final groups and it'll still only be a half arsed structure.

Farawayhome · 16-05-2019 7:02pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I don't what to "bin" any counties as you put it.
I want to see an attempt at restructuring the football championship.

Right now it's not fit for purpose for a high level multi million euro competition.

It's based on structures a century old

Why do Tyrone have to play twice as many games as Kerry to reach the same point ?

Why is it possible that for example Louth who beat Wexford at the weekend could end up in Round 1 of the qualifiers along with Wexford.

What reward do they get for actually winning a game ?

It needs a massive overhaul

Kicking teams out of the proper championship will not solve any of that.

Coillte_Bhoy · 16-05-2019 8:41pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

Kicking teams out of the proper championship will not solve any of that.

Actually yes it will, every team should have to play the same amount of games against roughly similar opposition in the early stages of the cship. This can't happen under the present system

Boom__Boom · 16-05-2019 9:30pm

Fair chunk of the managers of the Division 4 teams seem to be fairly open to the idea.

These are the guys who are dealing with the players day-in-day-out and know the reality of the situation. These are the guys who are getting the thanks but no thanks from lads who have no interest in committing to playing inter-county football with the current structures. These are the guys who know it's odds on that their season will be one provincial game and one qualifier game. They know the current system isn't working.

London manager is in favour

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0505/1047700-im-a-huge-supporter-of-a-tier-two-championship/

Leitrim Manager is in favour

https://www.leitrimobserver.ie/news/national-sports/373715/leitrim-back-tier-2-championship.html

Wicklow Manager is in Favour

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/football-needs-a-tier-2-evans-38094086.html

Limerick manager is in favour (even after the Tipp result)

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/limerick-boss-lee-supports-second-tier-championship-871449.html
https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/gaa/gaelic-football/gaelic-football-news/limerick-boss-billy-lee-not-15671446

Antrim manager in favour

http://www.irishnews.com/paywall/tsb/irishnews/irishnews/irishnews//sport/gaafootball/2019/02/14/news/alarm-bells-must-be-ringing-among-the-gaa-s-top-brass-antrim-boss-lenny-harbinson-1551867/content.html

Waterford manager not averse

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/new-deise-boss-whelan-open-to-secondary-competition-872104.html

The fact that so many of the managers of those counties who will be affected are in favour surely has to count for a lot.

Bass Reeves · 16-05-2019 10:45pm

First off counties are not being thrown out of the All Ireland Championship. Rather it would be reconfigured to be similar to most County championships. You would have an Senior, Intermediate and Junior county championship. Depending on set up either one or two teams could be promoted or relegated. So no team is consigned to a certain tier of the championship forever.

There are huge advantages teams will have much the same amount of games regardless of the tier that they are in. At present about 16 teams only get 2 championship games a year. Take Limerick it was 5-6 years since they won a championship game. In a tiered structure it would allow round robin competitions in all tiers. So every team would get a minimum 4-5 games every year. Teams that had to pay relegation playoffs and teams that got to tier final would get 6-8 games a year. Would TnaG and TV3 be interested in showing the the junior and interested division games if not I am sure that an internet TV GAA channel could be set up.
It would mean the end of provincal championship's but the Leinster and Munster are meaningless at present. However on the counter balance every team would be playing against teams more or less at there own level with the reward of a final and promotion to a higher tier for reaching it

17-05-2019 12:28am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

First off counties are not being thrown out of the All Ireland Championship. Rather it would be reconfigured to be similar to most County championships. You would have an Senior, Intermediate and Junior county championship. Depending on set up either one or two teams could be promoted or relegated. So no team is consigned to a certain tier of the championship forever.

There are huge advantages teams will have much the same amount of games regardless of the tier that they are in. At present about 16 teams only get 2 championship games a year. Take Limerick it was 5-6 years since they won a championship game. In a tiered structure it would allow round robin competitions in all tiers. So every team would get a minimum 4-5 games every year. Teams that had to pay relegation playoffs and teams that got to tier final would get 6-8 games a year. Would TnaG and TV3 be interested in showing the the junior and interested division games if not I am sure that an internet TV GAA channel could be set up.
It would mean the end of provincal championship's but the Leinster and Munster are meaningless at present. However on the counter balance every team would be playing against teams more or less at there own level with the reward of a final and promotion to a higher tier for reaching it

Can't see what the fuss is about tbh. A tiered structure is the norm in the GAA as a whole. National leagues in both codes, club championships in both codes, the hurling championship competitions and finally the ladies in both codes. The footballing fraternity needs to ditch its irrational thinking tbh. If plummeting attendances aren't a significant enough sign that change is warranted then certain people quite frankly have their heads stuck in the sand.

gaatheformat · 17-05-2019 8:20am

I have been working on a proposal for the previous 3 years and i think we are finally getting close to a system that works for everyone

Key factors in any format re-boot

Scheduling

Must be a fair
Players must be given rest between games and 6 day turnarounds must be limited
No impact on the promotion of the Hurling Championship
Schedule must be attractive to broadcasters

Finance

With intercounty costs spiralling out of control a shorter season is a necessity
A defined close season period with heavy penalties for breaches
A pooling of resources for all intercounty teams led by HQ which should lead to significant savings

Tiered System

All counties should be in with a chance to win Sam Maguire but there should also be other silverware up for grabs for other counties

All counties guaranteed 3 games - A maximum of 6 teams will NOT win a game all summer

The NFL to be semi-connected to the main championship

Teams seeded by NFL position with a new seeding trophy up for grabs each summer

A proposal to put the Provincial tournaments on a "Hiatus" for a short period until more teams are on an equal footing then re-introducing them into our fixture calender

A brand new secondary ALL IRELAND with all counties included

Clubs/Colleges

A defined club season that starts with club league with access for county players for the first 3/4 weeks -County players return exclusively to the county team until they are eliminated

No Winter training for intercounty teams so clubs/colleges will have full access

U20/Minor

A new tiered system for both resulting in more chance for ALL counties to be successful

Fr Tod Umptious · 17-05-2019 10:21am

The problem with a round robin system is that it would remove any chance of a surprise team making it to a semi-final for example, like Fermanagh in 2004, Wexford in 2008, Tipp in 2016, even Down in 2010

The All Ireland Senior Football Championship Group Stages are already reducing the likes of the above happening and it you had a league structure for the whole championship it would be reduced further.

The more games the big teams play in the league/group/division the less chance that one bad result will hurt them.

Now it could also be argued of course the Kildare's three games in The All Ireland Senior Football Championship Group Stages 2018 were of much more benefit than the 25 drubbing they got in one game in the quarter finals in 2015.

gaatheformat · 17-05-2019 11:05am

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

The problem with a round robin system is that it would remove any chance of a surprise team making it to a semi-final for example, like Fermanagh in 2004, Wexford in 2008, Tipp in 2016, even Down in 2010

The All Ireland Senior Football Championship Group Stages are already reducing the likes of the above happening and it you had a league structure for the whole championship it would be reduced further.

The more games the big teams play in the league/group/division the less chance that one bad result will hurt them.

Now it could also be argued of course the Kildare's three games in The All Ireland Senior Football Championship Group Stages 2018 were of much more benefit than the 25 drubbing they got in one game in the quarter finals in 2015.

Problem with round-robin is eventually attendances will significantly drop,Supporters are ruthless and want big knock out games - Whatever format is trialled will need to reduce the amount of dead rubbers as possible and try and keep games as important as possible.

Farawayhome · 19-05-2019 7:47pm

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Actually yes it will, every team should have to play the same amount of games against roughly similar opposition in the early stages of the cship. This can't happen under the present system

If some counties want to make a break away championship, they should come out and say it. Feigning interest in the health of football in the 'weaker' counties is not being bought.

Farawayhome · 19-05-2019 7:48pm

Boom__Boom wrote: »

Fair chunk of the managers of the Division 4 teams seem to be fairly open to the idea.

These are the guys who are dealing with the players day-in-day-out and know the reality of the situation. These are the guys who are getting the thanks but no thanks from lads who have no interest in committing to playing inter-county football with the current structures. These are the guys who know it's odds on that their season will be one provincial game and one qualifier game. They know the current system isn't working.

London manager is in favour

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0505/1047700-im-a-huge-supporter-of-a-tier-two-championship/

Leitrim Manager is in favour

https://www.leitrimobserver.ie/news/national-sports/373715/leitrim-back-tier-2-championship.html

Wicklow Manager is in Favour

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/football-needs-a-tier-2-evans-38094086.html

Limerick manager is in favour (even after the Tipp result)

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/limerick-boss-lee-supports-second-tier-championship-871449.html
https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/gaa/gaelic-football/gaelic-football-news/limerick-boss-billy-lee-not-15671446

Antrim manager in favour

http://www.irishnews.com/paywall/tsb/irishnews/irishnews/irishnews//sport/gaafootball/2019/02/14/news/alarm-bells-must-be-ringing-among-the-gaa-s-top-brass-antrim-boss-lenny-harbinson-1551867/content.html

Waterford manager not averse

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/new-deise-boss-whelan-open-to-secondary-competition-872104.html

The fact that so many of the managers of those counties who will be affected are in favour surely has to count for a lot.

Again, how will kicking 8 counties out make a difference?

Farawayhome · 19-05-2019 7:52pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

First off counties are not being thrown out of the All Ireland Championship. Rather it would be reconfigured to be similar to most County championships. You would have an Senior, Intermediate and Junior county championship. Depending on set up either one or two teams could be promoted or relegated. So no team is consigned to a certain tier of the championship forever.

There are huge advantages teams will have much the same amount of games regardless of the tier that they are in. At present about 16 teams only get 2 championship games a year. Take Limerick it was 5-6 years since they won a championship game. In a tiered structure it would allow round robin competitions in all tiers. So every team would get a minimum 4-5 games every year. Teams that had to pay relegation playoffs and teams that got to tier final would get 6-8 games a year. Would TnaG and TV3 be interested in showing the the junior and interested division games if not I am sure that an internet TV GAA channel could be set up.
It would mean the end of provincal championship's but the Leinster and Munster are meaningless at present. However on the counter balance every team would be playing against teams more or less at there own level with the reward of a final and promotion to a higher tier for reaching it

Counties will not recover from this and they are getting kicked out of the championship proper, that's the truth of it no matter how it's tried to be dressed up.
Let's look at the hurling. Since been put into the second tier, Offaly have not been able to recover. They've been dragged down to the level they are playing and now Westmeath have battered them. Same with Antrim and Laois, this tiered idea is disastrous for the counties that get binned.

Farawayhome · 19-05-2019 7:55pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Can't see what the fuss is about tbh. A tiered structure is the norm in the GAA as a whole. National leagues in both codes, club championships in both codes, the hurling championship competitions and finally the ladies in both codes. The footballing fraternity needs to ditch its irrational thinking tbh. If plummeting attendances aren't a significant enough sign that change is warranted then certain people quite frankly have their heads stuck in the sand.

Falling attendances is the fault of the 'weaker' counties! I've heard it all now. I assume all these posters favouring this cull are from 'stronger' counties?

21-05-2019 5:14pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

Falling attendances is the fault of the 'weaker' counties! I've heard it all now. I assume all these posters favouring this cull are from 'stronger' counties?

I haven't blamed any county, whether 'strong' or 'weak'. The remaining Leinster championship games before the final (regardless of Dublin being present or not) are all double headers this year. Why do you think that is?

ArnoldJRimmer · 21-05-2019 5:22pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I haven't blamed any county, whether 'strong' or 'weak'. The remaining Leinster championship games before the final (regardless of Dublin being present or not) are all double headers this year. Why do you think that is?

Because the financial doping of Dublin over a period of 15 years has made the Leinster championship so uncompetitive that no one, including Dublin fans, wants to watch it anymore?

Tiered Championship

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