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Tiered Championship

Farawayhome

I watched in amazement at Brolly last night on the Sunday Game. He was claiming the argument was won to introduce not just a two tiered championship but a three tiered one! What was his justification? Leitrim getting a hammering off Roscommon. A huge amount of issues with this.
Firstly, I remember Joe talking about removing Roscommon from the top tier last year! Next, Joe ignored all the other division 4 teams who played over the weekend when claiming this argument was won. Limerick destroyed Tipperary, Waterford only lost to Clare by a point, Wicklow ran Kildare to two points, last week London lost to Galway by 4 and of course he didn't say anything when his own county gave Tyrone a good match. Also, division 3 Offaly should have beaten Meath, a division 1 team next year.
Then Joe was going on about respect and giving these counties a platform. To believe this would happen, you'd have to ignore that the Sunday Game showed nothing from the Joe McDonagh Cup, not one second.

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ArnoldJRimmer

How anyone still listens to this man, let alone take him seriously, I just don't understand. We needed Joanne there last night to tell him to stfu. Like a broken record, and its the same condescending rubbish all the time. And of course ignored the games where division four teams either won or were close to 'top tier' opposition

NabyLadistheman

Good luck getting tickets with 3 finals on the one day :rolleyes:

shockframe

What was worse about this broken record rant was that he totally ignored any analysis of Roscommon and Leitrim and just launched straight into tiered championship stuff.

Keep that for a podcast or somesuch. The job on the night is to go through the games over the weekend.

Always_Running

Ah yes a tiered championship let's go down that road like we did in Hurling with Nicky Rackard cup,Christy ring cup where results weren't even read out last night on the Sunday game.

The more i watch or read Brolly the more i am convinced that GAA HQ gives him money for every time he mentions/promotes a tiered championship.

The man isn't able to give match analysis for a former player he is pretty clueless to how the game is played or what tactics game plans are used in matches. He's attention seeker also and for some odd reason some still fine his tiresome routine interesting.

The main taking point of the weekend should have been that great win by Limerick against the odds and the competitive performances of Offaly,Wicklow,Waterford but no lets stick to agenda of removing those teams from the championship and people like Brolly can never talk about them again.

shockframe

Always_Running wrote: »

Ah yes a tiered championship let's go down that road like we did in Hurling with Nicky Rackard cup,Christy ring cup where results weren't even read out last night on the Sunday game.

The more i watch or read Brolly the more i am convinced that GAA HQ gives him money for every time he mentions/promotes a tiered championship.

The man isn't able to give match analysis for a former player he is pretty clueless to how the game is played or what tactics game plans are used in matches. He's attention seeker also and for some odd reason some still fine his tiresome routine interesting.

The main taking point of the weekend should have been that great win by Limerick against the odds and the competitive performances of Offaly,Wicklow,Waterford but no lets stick to agenda of removing those teams from the championship and people like Brolly can never talk about them again.

What's worse is that he never stops moaning about the state of football compared to the halcyon days of yore and never is shy of a dig at Sky. The same Sky who have been light years ahead of RTE when it comes to analysts such as McGuiness, Horan and Canavan.

Farawayhome

There's a campaign ongoing for this. Paul Geaney was just on the news pushing it. This will not be good for Gaelic Football in the counties that get demoted. It has to be stopped.

Laois_Man

So, they basically want the national league played twice a year

Nonsense!

[Deleted User]

I've see more in the media from players/managers/pundits etc calling for it or saying that it's inevitable than in pervious years.

And it seems to be a hot topic straight off the bat.

One would be forgiven for thinking it was orchestrated.

As for a multi tier championship itself it's worth a try but as I have said here before a team has to start and finish the year in the same division.

None of this starting in the big championship and then going down to the lesser one once beaten, as the Tommy Murphy Cup was.
Teams have no love for that sort of thing.

And so what if there is little or no TV coverage.
People have no interest for lesser quality sport as it is.
Let it be for the teams and their fans.

WillieMason

shockframe wrote: »

What was worse about this broken record rant was that he totally ignored any analysis of Roscommon and Leitrim and just launched straight into tiered championship stuff.

Keep that for a podcast or somesuch. The job on the night is to go through the games over the weekend.

Once again he doesnt do any analysis of the game just goes off on a rant

OldMrBrennan83

It's being pushed so they can forget about most of the teams in the country altogether, like they've done with hurling.

[Deleted User]

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

It's being pushed so they can forget about most of the teams in the country altogether, like they've done with hurling.

But what is there to forget about ?

Most people forgot about Louth, Wicklow, Leitrim etc long ago.
They never got anything other than a mention on The Sunday Game or elsewhere.

And I'd argue that the system in hurling has enhanced the visibility of some teams.
Growing up in Mayo in the '80s I was totally unaware of the existence of a Mayo hurling team.
In the 2010s the Mayo hurling team.are winning national level senior titles.

Same goes for Kerry, hurling has not had as high a profile in Kerry since the turn of the last century.

The people who bemaon what will become of the smaller counties are like the people on the John Delaney thread in Soccer complaining about how JD has done little for the LOI.

The same people would not bother to watch a LOI game but love to complain and act concerned.

Here they talk about the plight of the smaller counties but would not watch Wicklow v Carlow for a full 70+ minutes if you paid them.

OldMrBrennan83

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But what is there to forget about ?

Most people forgot about Louth, Wicklow, Leitrim etc long ago.
They never got anything other than a mention on The Sunday Game or elsewhere.

And I'd argue that the system in hurling has enhanced the visibility of some teams.
Growing up in Mayo in the '80s I was totally unaware of the existence of a Mayo hurling team.
In the 2010s the Mayo hurling team.are winning national level senior titles.

Same goes for Kerry, hurling has not had as high a profile in Kerry since the turn of the last century.

The people who bemaon what will become of the smaller counties are like the people on the John Delaney thread in Soccer complaining about how JD has done little for the LOI.

The same people would not bother to watch a LOI game but love to complain and act concerned.

Here they talk about the plight of the smaller counties but would not watch Wicklow v Carlow for a full 70+ minutes if you paid them.

The hurling system is a great job for teams/supporters involved with the **** teams, don't get me wrong, but there's no chance there's better exposure because of it.

[Deleted User]

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

The hurling system is a great job for teams/supporters involved with the **** teams, don't get me wrong, but there's no chance there's better exposure because of it.

But it's not about exposure.

It's about teams competing at a level they can compete at and having a real chance of improving and advancing to the next level.

OldMrBrennan83

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But it's not about exposure.

It's about teams competing at a level they can compete at and having a real chance of improving and advancing to the next level.

Exposure is part of what will improve these teams. I'm not talking about live games, or even highlights as that does need to be earned. But the national broadcaster could give up ten seconds to give results.

grbear

Exposure and media coverage, or at least the promise of it, is what gets money out of sponsors. Pat McDonagh might like Galway GAA but Supermacs aren't committing up to €400,000 a year to Galway out of the goodness of his heart. The new championship structures means they'll probably feature in a lot of televised games until things change again. They were almost certainly the most watched county overall last year and barring a major shock this weekend they are going to have been shown live 4 times by the middle of June this year.

Bonniedog

Without being a hurling snob, there is a much bigger gap between the top ten in hurling, as represented by the ten Liam McCarthy teams, and the rest than there is in football. And you could discount Dublin, Wexford, Carlow as having a chance of winning it, and really five that you would consider putting money on.

So it makes sense to have a reasonably competitive senior tier one. I really don't see the same argument for football as even last weekend proved that there can be upsets. Limerick are not going to win Munster or qualify for the eights but their Summer just got longer.

Farawayhome

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But it's not about exposure.

It's about teams competing at a level they can compete at and having a real chance of improving and advancing to the next level.

You mean division3 and 4 teams being separated from the rest? Did you miss the weekends action? All division 3 and 4 teams showed they can compete against teams from the top two divisions, except for Leitrim. They'll improve by playing games of a higher standard, not the opposite way around. Players in these counties will have no interest in playing in the lower tier. It will be an absolute disaster and very damaging for the counties confined to the lower tier.

OldMrBrennan83

Farawayhome wrote: »

You mean division3 and 4 teams being separated from the rest? Did you miss the weekends action? All division 3 and 4 teams showed they can compete against teams from the top two divisions. They'll improve by playing games of a higher standard, not the opposite way around. Players in these counties will have no interest in playing in the lower tier. It will be an absolute disaster and very damaging for the counties confined to the lower tier.

If it was being split it would need to be 8-24 or 6-26, not 16-16 if people are talking about competitiveness.

Farawayhome

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

If it was being split it would need to be 8-24 or 6-26, not 16-16 if people are talking about competitiveness.

Yeah, that's the truth. There's probably a top 6 and then there's not that big a gap between the rest. The focus should be on improving the 26 to catch up on the 6, not make things harder for them.

blowitupref

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But it's not about exposure.

It's about teams competing at a level they can compete at and having a real chance of improving and advancing to the next level.

NFL is already in place for that and GAA heads should have sense to make NFL more important with more exposure than this country wide road show to get a tiered championship in place.

ArnoldJRimmer

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But it's not about exposure.

It's about teams competing at a level they can compete at and having a real chance of improving and advancing to the next level.

Its about the GAA making more money by having Dublin play Mayo and Kerry more frequently during the summer months.

I'm not opposed to some sort of restructure, I think Jim McGuinness's idea a few years ago was workable, gave every team at least one chance at the top prize, gave the National League the standing it deserves, but also lower tier teams a chance at a big day out at the end of the year

But lets not kid ourselves, the motivation is money and nothing else, same as the Super 8's

[Deleted User]

Farawayhome wrote: »

You mean division3 and 4 teams being separated from the rest? Did you miss the weekends action? All division 3 and 4 teams showed they can compete against teams from the top two divisions, except for Leitrim. They'll improve by playing games of a higher standard, not the opposite way around. Players in these counties will have no interest in playing in the lower tier. It will be an absolute disaster and very damaging for the counties confined to the lower tier.

So you are basing the competitiveness of Div 3 and Div 4 teams on one weekend, the first weekend, of games ?

Ignoring the statistics about how they fare against Div 1 and Div 2 teams in the championship
Thomas O' Se offered a stat on the Sunday Game last weekend about Div 4 teams winning v higher opposition, it was a crazy number, I'll go back and find it.

Teams that are always bad in any sport are always bad.
That's just the way it is
Playing them in outdated regional competitions for a championship they will never have a hope of wining is doing no one any good.
Barring a flash in the pan every decade or so the same bad teams

Farawayhome

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

So you are basing the competitiveness of Div 3 and Div 4 teams on one weekend, the first weekend, of games ?

Ignoring the statistics about how they fare against Div 1 and Div 2 teams in the championship
Thomas O' Se offered a stat on the Sunday Game last weekend about Div 4 teams winning v higher opposition, it was a crazy number, I'll go back and find it.

Teams that are always bad in any sport are always bad.
That's just the way it is
Playing them in outdated regional competitions for a championship they will never have a hope of wining is doing no one any good.
Barring a flash in the pan every decade or so the same bad teams

So now you just want to get rid of about 8 counties and leave the rest in? What difference would that make?

[Deleted User]

The stat that Thomas O Se came up with on The Sunday Game was that only 17 times in over 2,100 games has a Div 4 team beaten a team from Div 1 or Div 2.

How can anyone say the lower ranked teams need to continue to play the higher ranked ones to get better, cos based on that stat it just ain't working.

Bass Reeves

Bonniedog wrote: »

Without being a hurling snob, there is a much bigger gap between the top ten in hurling, as represented by the ten Liam McCarthy teams, and the rest than there is in football. And you could discount Dublin, Wexford, Carlow as having a chance of winning it, and really five that you would consider putting money on.

So it makes sense to have a reasonably competitive senior tier one. I really don't see the same argument for football as even last weekend proved that there can be upsets. Limerick are not going to win Munster or qualify for the eights but their Summer just got longer.

But when those to ten teams play each other most of the games are very competitive. The same cannot be said for football. Every few years you get an upset where 1-2 teams qualify for the quarter finals or even a semi final. A three tiered championship would allow for groups of 10-12 with promotion up and down.

Top tier two groups of 5 with top two teams in each group playing semi and bottom four teams playing a relegation battle with two to go down. 4and 5 from each group play each other and lose relegated.

2nd and 3rd tier two groups of six with finalists promoted and and relegation playoffs for teams 5&6. Would not agree with Brolly that finals played on same day demand for tickets would be crazy. But they could be played on the Saturday before the final at a provincal venue decided at start of the year. Can you imagine the crowd if tier2&3 finals were on at Mchale park, Pairc Ui Coimhe, or Clones in late August.

The 4 relegation playoff could be played at provincal venues as well as double headers on Saturday evenings. Games to be played off no replays

Bonniedog

I suppose my argument could be used both ways if you look at it from that perspective.

Hurling has certainly hit on a good formula - so it is certain to be changed!

My point, perhaps badly put , is that you could imagine a division three football team putting it up to a Division 2 or even 1 team. Offaly v Meath last weekend being example.

It is impossible to imagine Meath giving Dublin or Wexford a game, or Mayo contesting with Galway in hurling.

So football is a bit moreof a level playing field. Possibly mainly to the way the game is played. But the gap hasn't changed in most of the history of gaelic football, But still people remember the days when Leitrim won Connaught, Carlow won Leinster and Clare won Munster.

Mehapoy

Always_Running wrote: »

Ah yes a tiered championship let's go down that road like we did in Hurling with Nicky Rackard cup,Christy ring cup where results weren't even read out last night on the Sunday game.

The more i watch or read Brolly the more i am convinced that GAA HQ gives him money for every time he mentions/promotes a tiered championship.

The man isn't able to give match analysis for a former player he is pretty clueless to how the game is played or what tactics game plans are used in matches. He's attention seeker also and for some odd reason some still fine his tiresome routine interesting.

The main taking point of the weekend should have been that great win by Limerick against the odds and the competitive performances of Offaly,Wicklow,Waterford but no lets stick to agenda of removing those teams from the championship and people like Brolly can never talk about them again.

In relation to the Tipp limerick game you could see he knew a little about Tipp but nothing at all about Limerick, he mixed them up for about 2 mins when he talked about limerick having a tough time in div 2, biggest blowhole of a pundit ever

Mehapoy

Bonniedog wrote: »

Without being a hurling snob, there is a much bigger gap between the top ten in hurling, as represented by the ten Liam McCarthy teams, and the rest than there is in football. And you could discount Dublin, Wexford, Carlow as having a chance of winning it, and really five that you would consider putting money on.

So it makes sense to have a reasonably competitive senior tier one. I really don't see the same argument for football as even last weekend proved that there can be upsets. Limerick are not going to win Munster or qualify for the eights but their Summer just got longer.

But imagine limerick have a chance of winning a competition rather than hoping to stay on for a while before the inevitable beating, it changes the whole dynamic for the team, at least they'd have a chance of winning a competition and maybe playing in Croke park rather than being knocked out by one of the northern teams above in athlone or roscommon

Nic_Col

Comparing with hurling falls down for two reasons; first, the level of coverage for the non tier 1 hurling competitions is utterly pathetic and a great argument against tiering football. And second, the demographics are not comparable, every county has a football club in most parishes, some county's have less than 5 hurling clubs.

A lack of common consensus is a major stumbling block. For every manager of a lower level county who complains about the lack of meaningful games with closely matched opponents you have another manager who is indignant at the prospect of losing the opportunity to go head to head with the very best teams.

Would love to see it happen though.

ArnoldJRimmer

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

The stat that Thomas O Se came up with on The Sunday Game was that only 17 times in over 2,100 games has a Div 4 team beaten a team from Div 1 or Div 2.

How can anyone say the lower ranked teams need to continue to play the higher ranked ones to get better, cos based on that stat it just ain't working.

For that stat to make any sense, it would have to be the same Division 4 teams for the period of time those games took place in. Plenty of teams from Division 4 have climbed through the divisions over the years, potentially gaining valuable experience from playing higher ranked teams in the championship along the way.