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Tiered Championship

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    But i dont, thats why im asking you to enlighten me. Why all the mystery?

    You said you're aware of what's going on in your own county.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    Apologies. I should know better at this stage. :o

    No need to apologise. You are allowed to post your views, I don't mind correcting them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭Downlinz


    The GAA need to sort out the blue elephant in the room before they restructure the championship. We're inevitably going to have additional teams involved so wielding the knife now wouldn't make much sense.
    If they don't then a championship consisting of one team with home advantage, huge population advantage and a massive funding advantage isn't going to be viable regardless of structure.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    Downlinz wrote: »
    The GAA need to sort out the blue elephant in the room before they restructure the championship. We're inevitably going to have additional teams involved so wielding the knife now wouldn't make much sense.
    If they don't then a championship consisting of one team with home advantage, huge population advantage and a massive funding advantage isn't going to be viable regardless of structure.

    A tiered championship is pointless as Dublin will just continue to win anyway. You're right, people are looking in the wrong direction when seeing how to resolve this mess.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,723 ✭✭✭windy shepard henderson


    lads cut the nonsense bans handed out next


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hammer Archer


    To add to windy's post, Farawayhome, you've made an insinuation about Mayo GAA. Either back it up with evidence, retract it or don't post in this thread again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    To add to windy's post, Farawayhome, you've made an insinuation about Mayo GAA. Either back it up with evidence, retract it or don't post in this thread again.

    Mayo's American money? That's common knowledge, right? I hardly have to back that up?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭PressRun


    I thought Kieran Donaghy's proposal for a tiered championship was actually quite decent:
    - Keep the provincials, but play them early in the year and use a round robin format so teams get a handful of games each, the winners of these championships get their silverware but it doesn't effect the AI championship.
    - Then break for club championship in April.
    - Let the hurling start in May and allow football teams to use that time to get back to intercounty set-ups and start training again.
    - Then June start the AI football championship with a tiered structure - 2 groups of 8 in each tier, everyone plays each other, 3 home games, 3 away games, and 1 in a neutral venue, with neutral venues outside of Croke Park being used as much as possible. Top 2 teams from each group in each tier goes into the semis (with 1st v 2nd), and bottom teams from tier 1 get relegated, while finalists from tier 2 get promoted.
    - In August/September, hold semi finals and finals.

    I thought it was a pretty decent proposal with plenty of potential for great, even match ups and local derbys, which I presume is what everyone would like to see. It also allows people to hold onto some tradition by not totally scrapping the provincials. Also, crucially, it gives some consideration to the club player, who would be able to adequately balance their summer.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    A bit better. What about having the provincials at the start of the year as Donaghy said. Then for the championship, have a champions league type set up. With top 2 going through and bottom two going to the europa league.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,884 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    PressRun wrote: »
    I thought Kieran Donaghy's proposal for a tiered championship was actually quite decent:
    - Keep the provincials, but play them early in the year and use a round robin format so teams get a handful of games each, the winners of these championships get their silverware but it doesn't effect the AI championship.
    - Then break for club championship in April.
    - Let the hurling start in May and allow football teams to use that time to get back to intercounty set-ups and start training again.
    - Then June start the AI football championship with a tiered structure - 2 groups of 8 in each tier, everyone plays each other, 3 home games, 3 away games, and 1 in a neutral venue, with neutral venues outside of Croke Park being used as much as possible. Top 2 teams from each group in each tier goes into the semis (with 1st v 2nd), and bottom teams from tier 1 get relegated, while finalists from tier 2 get promoted.
    - In August/September, hold semi finals and finals.

    I thought it was a pretty decent proposal with plenty of potential for great, even match ups and local derbys, which I presume is what everyone would like to see. It also allows people to hold onto some tradition by not totally scrapping the provincials. Also, crucially, it gives some consideration to the club player, who would be able to adequately balance their summer.

    So the provincials then just basically replace the pres season FBD, O Byrne Cup etc then? After a few years they become meaningless, ive no issue with that btw, i think they have outlived their purpose, let them die. Re the structure of the cship i think one thing thats paramount is the need to avoid dead rubbers as far as possible which Donaghys system wouldnt do with just the top 2 qualifying. But its easy to come up with a formula once the principle has been agreed


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭PressRun


    So the provincials then just basically replace the pres season FBD, O Byrne Cup etc then? After a few years they become meaningless, ive no issue with that btw, i think they have outlived their purpose, let them die. Re the structure of the cship i think one thing thats paramount is the need to avoid dead rubbers as far as possible which Donaghys system wouldnt do with just the top 2 qualifying. But its easy to come up with a formula once the principle has been agreed

    If I remember correctly, the suggestion was to play provicincials in March, so maybe after the league?
    Agree re dead rubber games...would have to be worked out.
    But I also feel with this format, it might be harder to win the All Ireland what with more games against more evenly matched opposition. You might not see so many back to back wins.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,884 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    PressRun wrote: »
    If I remember correctly, the suggestion was to play provicincials in March, so maybe after the league?
    Agree re dead rubber games...would have to be worked out.
    But I also feel with this format, it might be harder to win the All Ireland what with more games against more evenly matched opposition. You might not see so many back to back wins.

    Would be the least problem, Depends how many teams we want in each tier, off top of my head, 3 groups of 4, top 2 qualify for quarters and 2 best placed 3rd teams. 2 Groups of 5, winners qualify for semis, 2nd and 3rd in each group play off V each other for the other 2 semi spots. As there would also be relegation the amount of dead rubbers could be absolutely minimised. It's ne of the big flaws with the lopsided Super 8's but will have to see how it pans out this year and next


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,493 ✭✭✭ArnoldJRimmer


    PressRun wrote: »
    If I remember correctly, the suggestion was to play provicincials in March, so maybe after the league?
    Agree re dead rubber games...would have to be worked out.
    But I also feel with this format, it might be harder to win the All Ireland what with more games against more evenly matched opposition. You might not see so many back to back wins.

    I would assume that the league as we know it is effectively done with, the groups of eight for championship replaces it. College games played in Feb


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,341 ✭✭✭✭rossie1977


    Waterford have lost by 18 and 20 points in this year's Munster hurling championship and Clare by 13 so regardless how many tiers you introduce you won't have everyone at same level.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,608 ✭✭✭harpsman


    What about giving the provincial champions a place in the top division if they are not already in the top 16 with the last placed county not relegated from previous year to drop down. Or give them a playoff? Gives every team a shot at the title at the start of the year, while still having a tiered championship


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,635 ✭✭✭dr.kenneth noisewater


    harpsman wrote: »
    What about giving the provincial champions a place in the top division if they are not already in the top 16 with the last placed county not relegated from previous year to drop down. Or give them a playoff? Gives every team a shot at the title at the start of the year, while still having a tiered championship
    Yeah I think the provincials will have to stay and the winners of all 4 are guaranteed entry into the top tier. Gives every team a chance every year and gives the provincials prestige still


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,723 ✭✭✭windy shepard henderson


    the proposal i would like to see is keep the provincial championships but start the super 8s at the start of the season , run it concurrently with the hurling championship two groups of 4 in each based on where teams finish in division 1 of the football league , ie the two relegated teams will be replaced by the two promoted teams in division 2 and the rest of the teams of division 2,3,4 play the provincial championships

    this is how this years championship would look ( Random draws )

    top two advance to the all ireland 1/4 final . bottom two teams eliminated , 3rd place teams play off to advance to round 2 of the qualifiers
    group 1 super 8

    Dublin
    Donegal
    Galway
    Monaghan

    Group 2
    Mayo
    Meath
    tyrone
    Kerry

    Ulster Championship teams
    round 1

    1.Cavan v armagh
    2.fermanagh v derry

    semi final
    antrim v winner 1
    down v winner 2

    Final

    Connacht Championship

    Leitrim v New York

    semi finals
    Sligo v London
    Roscommon v Leitrim/New York

    final

    Munster Championship
    round 1
    Cork v Limerick

    semi finals

    Clare v Tipperary
    Waterford v Cork/limerick

    Leinster Championship
    round 1
    Kildare v Offaly

    1/4 finals

    1.Louth v Westmeath
    2.Longford v Laois
    3.Wexford v Carlow
    4.Wicklow v Kildare/Offaly

    Semi finals

    1 v 3
    2 v 4

    final


    the winners of each provincial final to advance to round 4 of the qualifiers

    14 teams excluding NY will take part in the qualifiers round 1 narrowed down to 7 in round 2
    1 losing super 8 from 3rd placed teams play off in the group added into round 2 the
    4 winners of round 2 v the provincial runners up in round 3
    4 winners of round 3 v 4 provincial champions in round 4

    all ireland 1/4 finals knockout

    semi finals

    final



    all provincial champions are now fairly open given almost every team a chance to win , the qualifiers probably need a re think but , the super 8s will offer top games between top teams at the start f the championship and one or two big names could be gone after just 3 games like in the hurling


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,635 ✭✭✭dr.kenneth noisewater


    in fairness thats nonsense, how can you have provincials with only some teams in it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    The whole point of a tiered championship is that teams would be all playing teams of there own level more or less. As well promotion and relegation would allow better teams to develop and teams that are in decline be relegated and try to regroup in a lower division.
    Trying to incorporate a provincial championship into the system is a waste of time In any competition I am aware of the group stages are at the start of the competition to give all teams an equal number of games.
    In hurling it worked as there is virtually equal number of teams in a provincial system. However there is a flaw in that the relegated team is automatically from Leinster. This should be played off at end of the year. Would you lay you house on it being Carlow if that was the case

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,723 ✭✭✭windy shepard henderson


    in fairness thats nonsense, how can you have provincials with only some teams in it?


    what ? the idea of the gaa changing the championship is to even up the games , so its either something like this or a tired championship

    kerry dont play in the munster hurling championship if they are in the liam mccarthy cup , same as antrim who will also play in the leinster championship any time they are in the top tier in hurling

    i don't see this to be any different , its either going to be something like this or a system in ladies football or hurling , that's what they are proposing and it will most likely go down the ladies football route of junior , intermediate and senior championships


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,884 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    what ? the idea of the gaa changing the championship is to even up the games , so its either something like this or a tired championship

    kerry dont play in the munster hurling championship if they are in the liam mccarthy cup , same as antrim who will also play in the leinster championship any time they are in the top tier in hurling

    i don't see this to be any different , its either going to be something like this or a system in ladies football or hurling , that's what they are proposing and it will most likely go down the ladies football route of junior , intermediate and senior championships

    Nothing wrong with change but keeping the provincials while not having the top teams play in them?? Makes no sense whatsoever, why not just scrap them? And using Kerry as en example is ridiculous, traditionally they havent played in Munster, its hardly the same as taking Mayo and Galway out of Connacht


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,723 ✭✭✭windy shepard henderson


    Nothing wrong with change but keeping the provincials while not having the top teams play in them?? Makes no sense whatsoever, why not just scrap them? And using Kerry as en example is ridiculous, traditionally they havent played in Munster, its hardly the same as taking Mayo and Galway out of Connacht

    the big problem in the gaa is the top heavy nature of the provincial championships , ie same teams wining all the time , leitrim have won 1 connacht in 50 odd years sligo have won 2 in that time

    in munster only clare once 27 years ago have divided cork and kerry in 50 years

    in ulster

    antrim . over 50 years since last win
    fermanagh : never won one
    derry : 21 years since last win
    cavan : 22 years since last win
    down : 25 years since last win
    armagh : 11 years since last win

    leinster championship
    wicklow : never won
    kilkenny : over 50 years ago
    carlow : over 50 years ago
    longford : over 50 years ago
    wexford : over 50 years ago
    louth : over 50 years ago
    kildare : 19 years ago
    offaly : 22 years ago
    westmeath : last win 15 years ago

    the major problem is the provincial championships , by taking the stronger teams out of it it opens the door for each team remaining to have a realistic chance of success which would act as afar better spring board then wining an allireland B or C Championship


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,723 ✭✭✭windy shepard henderson


    plus it would also be interesting to see how well the likes of dublin and kerry would do if it was put up to them from the word go , rather then given a free run in the championship up to the last 8


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,723 ✭✭✭windy shepard henderson


    The whole point of a tiered championship is that teams would be all playing teams of there own level more or less. As well promotion and relegation would allow better teams to develop and teams that are in decline be relegated and try to regroup in a lower division.
    Trying to incorporate a provincial championship into the system is a waste of time In any competition I am aware of the group stages are at the start of the competition to give all teams an equal number of games.
    In hurling it worked as there is virtually equal number of teams in a provincial system. However there is a flaw in that the relegated team is automatically from Leinster. This should be played off at end of the year. Would you lay you house on it being Carlow if that was the case

    big problem i have is the majority of people wanting to say keep provincial championships have little or no research done ,

    there is a real danger if we just keep going the way we are going that top football counties likes of down and derry , kildare offaly ect will get lost for good ,

    i cant see how blaming dublin has anything to do with the fact the same 3 teams have dominated connacht for the last 50 years , on 3 occasions in that time did a team outside that bracket win a championship there

    in munster its almost 80 years ago bar 1992 with clare that someone outside of cork or kerry won a provincial championship

    leinster has had a competitive spell in the early part of the 2000s but is mainly dominated by dublin or meath over the last 50 odd years

    ulster is the most competitive championship with 5 counties wining a championship in the last 25 years but given that a trend is starting to develop in both derry and down shows the need for change

    what baffles me is why do people want to hang on to this format as it exists , if people want to hang on to the provincial championships well then they will probably need to be watered down or else a full blown change to the championship structure


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭intellectual dosser


    The flaw of the tiered championship is the same flaw of the Super 8s...The strong teams get stronger and the weak teams stay weaker.

    People may not like the soccer association, but a champions league format is the fairest solution that doesnt cast the Division 4 teams off into the abyss for all eternity.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    Carlow got another bad beating in the hurling, that's them done now, back down to their own tier. Then some other county gets the honour of getting thrashed by the big guns. Do you think it will be next year or the year after before they close of the avenue for any tier two team to compete in the real championship? This will also happen in the football. Tiered championships don't work.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,635 ✭✭✭dr.kenneth noisewater


    Carlow got another bad beating in the hurling, that's them done now, back down to their own tier. Then some other county gets the honour of getting thrashed by the big guns. Do you think it will be next year or the year after before they close of the avenue for any tier two team to compete in the real championship? This will also happen in the football. Tiered championships don't work.
    So club championships in every county in Ireland dont work?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    So club championships in every county in Ireland dont work?

    Apples and oranges.


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