Tiered Championship

Farawayhome

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

If the bit in red was true then why have so many counties never ever really challenged at the top end for trophies?

21 counties have won provincial championships in the recent past. Other counties such as Fermanagh, Tipperary, Louth, Wexford, Longford have made great improvements. There's other things that goes into improving standards in counties but playing teams worse than you isn't one of them.
Let's get onto what does work. Tell me how Dublin hurling improved.

kksaints

Farawayhome wrote: »

21 counties have won provincial championships in the recent past. Other counties such as Fermanagh, Tipperary, Louth, Wexford, Longford have made great improvements. There's other things that goes into improving standards in counties but playing teams worse than you isn't one of them.
Let's get onto what does work. Tell me how Dublin hurling improved.

Are you including both codes in this or just football? If its both codes that creates something of a false picture as theoretically instead of 33 teams you have to include the fact that most counties get 2 bites of the cherry regarding provincial championships. If its both the 21 increases but so does the 33.

ArnoldJRimmer

kksaints wrote: »

Are you including both codes in this or just football? If its both codes that creates something of a false picture as theoretically instead of 33 teams you have to include the fact that most counties get 2 bites of the cherry regarding provincial championships. If its both the 21 increases but so does the 33.

I'm bored, so I'm going to make the assumption that its over the last 30 years in football

Kerry
Cork
Clare
Galway
Mayo
Roscommon
Leitrim
Sligo
Donegal
Derry
Tyrone
Cavan
Monaghan
Armagh
Down
Dublin
Meath
Kildare
Offaly
Westmeath
Laois

And in that same period, Limerick, Tipperary, London, Antrim, Fermanagh, Louth and Wexford have made provincial finals

Farawayhome

kksaints wrote: »

Are you including both codes in this or just football? If its both codes that creates something of a false picture as theoretically instead of 33 teams you have to include the fact that most counties get 2 bites of the cherry regarding provincial championships. If its both the 21 increases but so does the 33.

Just football.

Farawayhome

ArnoldJRimmer wrote: »

I'm bored, so I'm going to make the assumption that its over the last 30 years in football

Kerry
Cork
Clare
Galway
Mayo
Roscommon
Leitrim
Sligo
Donegal
Derry
Tyrone
Cavan
Monaghan
Armagh
Down
Dublin
Meath
Kildare
Offaly
Westmeath
Laois

And in that same period, Limerick, Tipperary, London, Antrim, Fermanagh, Louth and Wexford have made provincial finals

Thanks. That's 21 counties who've won provincial championships and 28 who've been to a provincial final.

ArnoldJRimmer

Farawayhome wrote: »

Thanks. That's 21 counties who've won provincial championships and 28 who've been to a provincial final.

Of the teams that are left, Longford have had some very good runs in the qualifiers, Wicklow had one or two decent years under Micko, and we had #CarlowRising last year. Which just leaves New York and Waterford

Farawayhome

ArnoldJRimmer wrote: »

Of the teams that are left, Longford have had some very good runs in the qualifiers, Wicklow had one or two decent years under Micko, and we had #CarlowRising last year. Which just leaves New York and Waterford

So it's not as bad as people make out really. What counties need is funding and some structures put in place. Imagine a championship with a huge number of counties challenging for provincial and All Ireland titles? That's what we should be looking for.

The Lost Sheep

Farawayhome wrote: »

So it's not as bad as people make out really. What counties need is funding and some structures put in place. Imagine a championship with a huge number of counties challenging for provincial and All Ireland titles? That's what we should be looking for.

And that isnt going to happen. Funding alone will not aid teams and close the gap between sides currently ranked 20-32 or so with the top 4/5/6 counties.

Farawayhome

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

And that isnt going to happen. Funding alone will not aid teams and close the gap between sides currently ranked 20-32 or so with the top 4/5/6 counties.

Did you find the answer as to how Dublin hurling improved from minnows to contenders yet?

OldMrBrennan83

Farawayhome wrote: »

Did you find the answer as to how Dublin hurling improved from minnows to contenders yet?

Contenders for what?

Farawayhome

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Contenders for what?

Leinster championship anyway, All Ireland contenders not so long ago. How did they do it?

windy shepard henderson

Provincial Championship winners outside the top 16 in the NFL Since new format begin in 1971

2013 Monaghan Division 3
2010 Roscommon Division 3 (R)
2007 Sligo Division 2B
2002 Armagh Division 2A
1997 Offaly Division 4
1996 Mayo Division 3
1992 Clare Division 2A
1989 Tyrone Division 3
1983 Donegal Division 3
1978 Down Division 2A
1977 Armagh Division 2A
1974 Donegal Division 2B /Dublin Division 2A
1973 Tyrone Division 2A
1972 Donegal Division 2B

ALL ireland winners outside the top 16 NFL since 1971
2002 Armagh
1974 Dublin

There is probably 2 weeker counties in that list above that won provincial titles while operating outside the top 16 of the league , clare in 1992 and sligo in 2007 , offaly and roscommon won a title each from division 4 the rest would be fairly formidable football counties monaghan , roscommon and offaly all were fairly strong at different times over the past 45 years since the league format was changed from regional to national there were 4 years over that time that there were open draws

the fact that only two teams outside the top 16 in the league since 1971 have won an all ireland and only 15 teams have won a provincial title in over 45 years outside the top 16 shows the need for some sort of change

leitrim were division 1B or Division 2 (both top 16 ) for most of the early 90s before wining connacht

Coillte_Bhoy

Farawayhome wrote: »

Carlow are in this year for their few whippings, it will be someone else next year and eventually some people like those on this thread will come along and say what's the point of one of these minnows getting battered every year, let's do like they do in Munster.
People are saying that somehow counties playing against other counties at or below their standard will help improve them. This is complete nonsense and goes against any common sense. You get better by playing against better teams and gradually upping your game. Offaly are a great example but you can choose any county from the lower tiers. They will never be able to make the jump from the level they're playing at to the upper level. It just won't happen.
Next you're going to say wasn't that always the way. Well yes, in hurling. Carlow, Westmeath, Kerry and teams such as these were never competing. Then other counties like Laois and Antrim were on the edges but never made a breakthrough. Has the lower tiered competitions improved them? Have they got any better? The answer is no. A definite no.
Now, there was a county at the same level as these mentioned above. Dublin. What did they do to move so far ahead of the rest? How can they comepte at the top level when they never could before. We all know the answer and that tells us what needs to be done for other 'weaker' counties in both football and hurling.

Ffs do you not understand the basic concept of promotion? :rolleyes:

Farawayhome

windy shepard henderson wrote: »

Provincial Championship winners outside the top 16 in the NFL Since new format begin in 1971

2013 Monaghan Division 3
2010 Roscommon Division 3 (R)
2007 Sligo Division 2B
2002 Armagh Division 2A
1997 Offaly Division 4
1996 Mayo Division 3
1992 Clare Division 2A
1989 Tyrone Division 3
1983 Donegal Division 3
1978 Down Division 2A
1977 Armagh Division 2A
1974 Donegal Division 2B /Dublin Division 2A
1973 Tyrone Division 2A
1972 Donegal Division 2B

ALL ireland winners outside the top 16 NFL since 1971
2002 Armagh
1974 Dublin

There is probably 2 weeker counties in that list above that won provincial titles while operating outside the top 16 of the league , clare in 1992 and sligo in 2007 , offaly and roscommon won a title each from division 4 the rest would be fairly formidable football counties monaghan , roscommon and offaly all were fairly strong at different times over the past 45 years since the league format was changed from regional to national there were 4 years over that time that there were open draws

the fact that only two teams outside the top 16 in the league since 1971 have won an all ireland and only 15 teams have won a provincial title in over 45 years outside the top 16 shows the need for some sort of change

leitrim were division 1B or Division 2 (both top 16 ) for most of the early 90s before wining connacht

That's pointless information. Many counties have floated throughout the leagues. Counties have good spells and bad spells. The one thing is that they are always allowed to compete in the proper championship. Without that, nowhere close to 21 conties would have won provincial champiosnhips since 1992.

Farawayhome

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Ffs do you not understand the basic concept of promotion? :rolleyes:

I do. It's just the concept of my post flew right over your head. Read it again.

Coillte_Bhoy

Farawayhome wrote: »

I do. It's just the concept of my post flew right over your head. Read it again.

Well this is what you posted in fairness. If i misunderstood your point then perhaps you might clarify it. Now maybe you were referring specifically to the hurling cships? In that case mea culpa

Farawayhome wrote: »

They will never be able to make the jump from the level they're playing at to the upper level. It just won't happen.

Farawayhome

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Well this is what you posted in fairness. If i misunderstood your point then perhaps you might clarify it. Now maybe you were referring specifically to the hurling cships? In that case mea culpa

It's pretty clear what I meant. The level is referring to the standard of play. Maybe you should calm down and take your time to read over posts first.

Coillte_Bhoy

Farawayhome wrote: »

It's pretty clear what I meant. The level is referring to the standard of play. Maybe you should calm down and take your time to read over posts first.

Im quite calm so less of the condescending attitude if you dont mind. Your post was far from clear and i merely asked for clarity
So the standard of play is going to be less in the lower tiers, well obviously, and its only by competing regularly in the higher tiers will a teams standards improve. Start the process at a lower level playing teams your own level and then you move up where you will get a regular games against higher tier teams as opposed to the one off annual hammering now for many of these teams. L

Look at Roscommon and Cavan this year? Those 7 games in Division 1 certainly brought them on, thats what lesser teams need, the chance of regular games against better opposition which is what a tiered cship.

OldMrBrennan83

It should be about earning the right to compete at the top level. There's too much of this "everyone gets a medal in the sports day" bull these days but there shouldn't be any God given right to play at the top if you're not good enough.

Coillte_Bhoy

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

It should be about earning the right to compete at the top level. There's too much of this "everyone gets a medal in the sports day" bull these days but there shouldn't be any God given right to play at the top if you're not good enough.

You mean like the virtually every other country in the world organise their major championships in team sports? What a curious idea

OldMrBrennan83

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

You mean like the virtually every other country in the world organise their major championships in team sports? What a curious idea

I know it's a bit out there, but we should go crazy and give it a go.

Farawayhome

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Im quite calm so less of the condescending attitude if you dont mind. Your post was far from clear and i merely asked for clarity
So the standard of play is going to be less in the lower tiers, well obviously, and its only by competing regularly in the higher tiers will a teams standards improve. Start the process at a lower level playing teams your own level and then you move up where you will get a regular games against higher tier teams as opposed to the one off annual hammering now for many of these teams. L

Look at Roscommon and Cavan this year? Those 7 games in Division 1 certainly brought them on, thats what lesser teams need, the chance of regular games against better opposition which is what a tiered cship.

This is not the post of a calm person:

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Ffs do you not understand the basic concept of promotion? :rolleyes:

All I can do is laugh at your post there. Did you re-read it? You said "its only by competing regularly in the higher tiers will a teams standards improve" but you are suggesting that we boot at least half the teams out of the real championship so they don't get to regularly play teams in the higher tier.
If you want counties standards to improve and you admit that playing against better opposition achieves this, then why are you advocating dropping these teams out of the championship? Why not call for a different system instead where these counties get regular games against top opposition?

Farawayhome

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

It should be about earning the right to compete at the top level. There's too much of this "everyone gets a medal in the sports day" bull these days but there shouldn't be any God given right to play at the top if you're not good enough.

Counties have earned their right. The GAA is not owned by Dublin and Mayo and counties like that. Instead of punishing the 'weaker' counties, let's have a closer look at the financial irregularities ongoing in these 'stronger' counties and sort out a system of fair play.

OldMrBrennan83

Forget Dublin and Mayo, this is about the perennially weak teams who should be playing at their own level. If they want to work and improve to play at the top tier then there would be an avenue there. If they don't then let them languish in the second level.

Farawayhome

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Forget Dublin and Mayo, this is about the perennially weak teams who should be playing at their own level. If they want to work and improve to play at the top tier then there would be an avenue there. If they don't then let them languish in the second level.

What counties are you talking about? 21 counties have won provincial championships since 1992, we've already gone through the list who've made improvements without winning anything. You want to kick New York and London out of the championship?
The way to improve standards is to invest money in these counties. If this means taking money off Dublin, Mayo and the likes, then so be it. Financial fair play needs to be introduced.

OldMrBrennan83

That's not good enough though. Even if you won a provincial in the past 25 years, if you're currently in the bottom half of teams you're in the bottom half of teams. No sports team can live off one thing forever.
It's not as if any team is being shut out anyway. Want to play in the top tier? Then stay in it if you're in it, or get to it if you're not. It's simple really.

Farawayhome

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

That's not good enough though. Even if you won a provincial in the past 25 years, if you're currently in the bottom half of teams you're in the bottom half of teams. No sports team can live off one thing forever.
It's not as if any team is being shut out anyway. Want to play in the top tier? Then stay in it if you're in it, or get to it if you're not. It's simple really.

As the Mayo poster pointed out, to improve standards, you must play against better quality opposition. Obviously, this won't happen if you get booted into this lower tier.
So the aim of this lower tier clearly doesn't have the interests of the strength of football in these counties at heart. It's about removing them as they are an inconvenience.
I don't see why anyone from these counties should stand for this, especially as some of the 'stronger' counties have been buying their way to the top.

OldMrBrennan83

Teams in every sport get promoted all the time. Not all go straight back down either so it's definitely possible to improve. Simple fact is the championship needs to be changed as it's ridiculously sub standard now, I wouldn't be letting the rubbish dictate that happening or not.

The Lost Sheep

Farawayhome wrote: »

As the Mayo poster pointed out, to improve standards, you must play against better quality opposition. Obviously, this won't happen if you get booted into this lower tier.
So the aim of this lower tier clearly doesn't have the interests of the strength of football in these counties at heart. It's about removing them as they are an inconvenience.
I don't see why anyone from these counties should stand for this, especially as some of the 'stronger' counties have been buying their way to the top.

A so called weaker side improves far more from playing teams of their own standard nearer theres than the current set up.

Farawayhome

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Teams in every sport get promoted all the time. Not all go straight back down either so it's definitely possible to improve. Simple fact is the championship needs to be changed as it's ridiculously sub standard now, I wouldn't be letting the rubbish dictate that happening or not.

The championship may need to be changed but the most important thing to change is the financial irregularities.

Farawayhome

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

A so called weaker side improves far more from playing teams of their own standard nearer theres than the current set up.

We've discussed this, counties improve with proper funding. This has been proven. They don't improve when demoted into lower tiers. This has been proven.

OldMrBrennan83

You should start a funding thread as you are just using this one to talk about it.

Farawayhome

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

You should start a funding thread as you are just using this one to talk about it.

I've showed why the tiered championship won't work and I'm saying what does work. What's wrong with that?

robbiezero

Farawayhome wrote: »

As the Mayo poster pointed out, to improve standards, you must play against better quality opposition. Obviously, this won't happen if you get booted into this lower tier.
So the aim of this lower tier clearly doesn't have the interests of the strength of football in these counties at heart. It's about removing them as they are an inconvenience.
I don't see why anyone from these counties should stand for this, especially as some of the 'stronger' counties have been buying their way to the top.

Louth or Antrim will have learnt absolutely nothing from their slaughterings at the weekend and it must be very hard to try and pick up for the qualifiers after such demoralizing hidings. Most of these teams recognize that the league is the path for them to improve more so than the championship.

I would be in favour of a tiered championship with possibly something like the JoeMcDonagh for the second tier e.g. where the finalists can meet the 3rd places in each of the top tier in a prelimary knock out round.
It might actually work quite well for the football, where realistically its a training game for the top tier teams in the hurling.

Coillte_Bhoy

Farawayhome wrote: »

Counties have earned their right. The GAA is not owned by Dublin and Mayo and counties like that. Instead of punishing the 'weaker' counties, let's have a closer look at the financial irregularities ongoing in these 'stronger' counties and sort out a system of fair play.

Im sorry but what financial irregularities in Mayo are you talking about?

Coillte_Bhoy

Farawayhome wrote: »

As the Mayo poster pointed out, to improve standards, you must play against better quality opposition. Obviously, this won't happen if you get booted into this lower tier.
So the aim of this lower tier clearly doesn't have the interests of the strength of football in these counties at heart. It's about removing them as they are an inconvenience.
I don't see why anyone from these counties should stand for this, especially as some of the 'stronger' counties have been buying their way to the top.

You have misunderstood my point. Obviously a team must earn the right to compete at the top by getting their on merit. Then they can play regularly agaisnt top opposition opposed to one or two games every year, which will involve a hammering. This year Leitirm got out of Div 4 and will play at a higher level next season. if they are good enough to stay there and compete they can aim for Division 2 etc etc. And i can tell you their league run to the final did more to boost the game in that county than their once in a blue moon shock result against a top team. They are an upward trajectory because they are playing at a level they can compete at.

Farawayhome

robbiezero wrote: »

Louth or Antrim will have learnt absolutely nothing from their slaughterings at the weekend and it must be very hard to try and pick up for the qualifiers after such demoralizing hidings. Most of these teams recognize that the league is the path for them to improve more so than the championship.

I would be in favour of a tiered championship with possibly something like the JoeMcDonagh for the second tier e.g. where the finalists can meet the 3rd places in each of the top tier in a prelimary knock out round.
It might actually work quite well for the football, where realistically its a training game for the top tier teams in the hurling.

I'm not going over old ground. Fund them, that's how you make them competitive.

Farawayhome

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Im sorry but what financial irregularities in Mayo are you talking about?

The finance available to Mayo isn't always stated in the official books, they're far from the only county at this but the level its at is up there above most.

Farawayhome

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

You have misunderstood my point. Obviously a team must earn the right to compete at the top by getting their on merit. Then they can play regularly agaisnt top opposition opposed to one or two games every year, which will involve a hammering. This year Leitirm got out of Div 4 and will play at a higher level next season. if they are good enough to stay there and compete they can aim for Division 2 etc etc. And i can tell you their league run to the final did more to boost the game in that county than their once in a blue moon shock result against a top team. They are an upward trajectory because they are playing at a level they can compete at.

Counties have earned their right! They are apart of the GAA as much as Mayo is. In fact, I think it's far more reasonable to boot counties like Mayo, Dublin and Kerry out as they are using finance to advance their cause and are the root of the issues we are facing. They are also the ones most vocal about demoting 'weaker' counties.
You've admitted that counties only get better by playing better teams. Throwing counties into a b championship goes against this. We already have a tiered competition in the league. Proponents of the tiered championship like to state that every sport in other countries have tiers but the truth is that in cup competitions, all teams get to enter and have a chance to succeed.

Coillte_Bhoy

Farawayhome wrote: »

The finance available to Mayo isn't always stated in the official books, they're far from the only county at this but the level its at is up there above most.

Come on then out with it, where exactly are the irregularities you talked about? You're making false accusations without a shred of evidence

Coillte_Bhoy

Farawayhome wrote: »

Counties have earned their right! They are apart of the GAA as much as Mayo is. In fact, I think it's far more reasonable to boot counties like Mayo, Dublin and Kerry out as they are using finance to advance their cause and are the root of the issues we are facing. They are also the ones most vocal about demoting 'weaker' counties.
You've admitted that counties only get better by playing better teams. Throwing counties into a b championship goes against this. We already have a tiered competition in the league. Proponents of the tiered championship like to state that every sport in other countries have tiers but the truth is that in cup competitions, all teams get to enter and have a chance to succeed.

In most cup competition the lesser teams have to play a number of rounds before they get the chance to play with bigger teams and anyway cup competitions are normally secondary competitions, so its a flawed argument.

Coillte_Bhoy

Farawayhome wrote: »

Counties have earned their right! They are apart of the GAA as much as Mayo is. In fact, I think it's far more reasonable to boot counties like Mayo, Dublin and Kerry out as they are using finance to advance their cause and are the root of the issues we are facing. They are also the ones most vocal about demoting 'weaker' counties.
You've admitted that counties only get better by playing better teams. Throwing counties into a b championship goes against this. We already have a tiered competition in the league. Proponents of the tiered championship like to state that every sport in other countries have tiers but the truth is that in cup competitions, all teams get to enter and have a chance to succeed.

And wtf does this even mean?

Farawayhome wrote: »

Dublin and Kerry out as they are using finance to advance their cause

Farawayhome

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Come on then out with it, where exactly are the irregularities you talked about? You're making false accusations without a shred of evidence

Bury your head in the sand if you so wish.

Farawayhome

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

In most cup competition the lesser teams have to play a number of rounds before they get the chance to play with bigger teams and anyway cup competitions are normally secondary competitions, so its a flawed argument.

It's not. You and others were claiming that tiered competitions were the norm, you were wrong. Not for the first time.

Farawayhome

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

And wtf does this even mean?

And not the first time the meaning of something has flown right over your head. Look, you said that teams need to play against tougher opposition to improve their own level, you basically admitted the tiered championships won't work. Time to move on.

OldMrBrennan83

It's going to happen.

Farawayhome

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

It's going to happen.

I've no doubt that the current president is going to try to push this through. We can all see the media campaign in progress. It's up to the 'weaker' counties to stand together and fight against this.

OldMrBrennan83

Farawayhome wrote: »

I've no doubt that the current president is going to try to push this through. We can all see the media campaign in progress. It's up to the 'weaker' counties to stand together and fight against this.

My own county, easily the weakest of them all, does not deserve to be in anything other than a 2nd or 3rd tier. They shouldn't fight anything.

Farawayhome

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

My own county, easily the weakest of them all, does not deserve to be in anything other than a 2nd or 3rd tier. They shouldn't fight anything.

If they want to give up, let them. Any county who feels they shouldn't be booted out of the championship for the 'big' counties convenience, they should fight like dogs against this.

Farawayhome

Just to show again where this leads. Offaly could be heading for the Christy Ring Cup next year. The tiered championship hasn't worked for them. Carlow were the team to get the bogey prize of promotion to the 'elites' this year. They're taking their whippings and will be back down to give someone else ago next year. Then soon they will close off that avenue as the tier 2 teams just can't compete at the top so they're wasting the 'elites' time. The team that were giving Carlow their beating this week were Dublin. They were minnows not so long ago. It wasn't the tiered championship that helped them.
That's what they aim should be and that's what the 'weaker' counties should be fighting for.