Tiered Championship

PressRun

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

So the provincials then just basically replace the pres season FBD, O Byrne Cup etc then? After a few years they become meaningless, ive no issue with that btw, i think they have outlived their purpose, let them die. Re the structure of the cship i think one thing thats paramount is the need to avoid dead rubbers as far as possible which Donaghys system wouldnt do with just the top 2 qualifying. But its easy to come up with a formula once the principle has been agreed

If I remember correctly, the suggestion was to play provicincials in March, so maybe after the league?
Agree re dead rubber games...would have to be worked out.
But I also feel with this format, it might be harder to win the All Ireland what with more games against more evenly matched opposition. You might not see so many back to back wins.

Coillte_Bhoy

PressRun wrote: »

If I remember correctly, the suggestion was to play provicincials in March, so maybe after the league?
Agree re dead rubber games...would have to be worked out.
But I also feel with this format, it might be harder to win the All Ireland what with more games against more evenly matched opposition. You might not see so many back to back wins.

Would be the least problem, Depends how many teams we want in each tier, off top of my head, 3 groups of 4, top 2 qualify for quarters and 2 best placed 3rd teams. 2 Groups of 5, winners qualify for semis, 2nd and 3rd in each group play off V each other for the other 2 semi spots. As there would also be relegation the amount of dead rubbers could be absolutely minimised. It's ne of the big flaws with the lopsided Super 8's but will have to see how it pans out this year and next

ArnoldJRimmer

PressRun wrote: »

If I remember correctly, the suggestion was to play provicincials in March, so maybe after the league?
Agree re dead rubber games...would have to be worked out.
But I also feel with this format, it might be harder to win the All Ireland what with more games against more evenly matched opposition. You might not see so many back to back wins.

I would assume that the league as we know it is effectively done with, the groups of eight for championship replaces it. College games played in Feb

rossie1977

Waterford have lost by 18 and 20 points in this year's Munster hurling championship and Clare by 13 so regardless how many tiers you introduce you won't have everyone at same level.

harpsman

What about giving the provincial champions a place in the top division if they are not already in the top 16 with the last placed county not relegated from previous year to drop down. Or give them a playoff? Gives every team a shot at the title at the start of the year, while still having a tiered championship

dr.kenneth noisewater

harpsman wrote: »

What about giving the provincial champions a place in the top division if they are not already in the top 16 with the last placed county not relegated from previous year to drop down. Or give them a playoff? Gives every team a shot at the title at the start of the year, while still having a tiered championship

Yeah I think the provincials will have to stay and the winners of all 4 are guaranteed entry into the top tier. Gives every team a chance every year and gives the provincials prestige still

windy shepard henderson

the proposal i would like to see is keep the provincial championships but start the super 8s at the start of the season , run it concurrently with the hurling championship two groups of 4 in each based on where teams finish in division 1 of the football league , ie the two relegated teams will be replaced by the two promoted teams in division 2 and the rest of the teams of division 2,3,4 play the provincial championships

this is how this years championship would look ( Random draws )

top two advance to the all ireland 1/4 final . bottom two teams eliminated , 3rd place teams play off to advance to round 2 of the qualifiers
group 1 super 8

Dublin
Donegal
Galway
Monaghan

Group 2
Mayo
Meath
tyrone
Kerry

Ulster Championship teams
round 1

1.Cavan v armagh
2.fermanagh v derry

semi final
antrim v winner 1
down v winner 2

Final

Connacht Championship

Leitrim v New York

semi finals
Sligo v London
Roscommon v Leitrim/New York

final

Munster Championship
round 1
Cork v Limerick

semi finals

Clare v Tipperary
Waterford v Cork/limerick

Leinster Championship
round 1
Kildare v Offaly

1/4 finals

1.Louth v Westmeath
2.Longford v Laois
3.Wexford v Carlow
4.Wicklow v Kildare/Offaly

Semi finals

1 v 3
2 v 4

final


the winners of each provincial final to advance to round 4 of the qualifiers

14 teams excluding NY will take part in the qualifiers round 1 narrowed down to 7 in round 2
1 losing super 8 from 3rd placed teams play off in the group added into round 2 the
4 winners of round 2 v the provincial runners up in round 3
4 winners of round 3 v 4 provincial champions in round 4

all ireland 1/4 finals knockout

semi finals

final



all provincial champions are now fairly open given almost every team a chance to win , the qualifiers probably need a re think but , the super 8s will offer top games between top teams at the start f the championship and one or two big names could be gone after just 3 games like in the hurling

dr.kenneth noisewater

in fairness thats nonsense, how can you have provincials with only some teams in it?

Bass Reeves

The whole point of a tiered championship is that teams would be all playing teams of there own level more or less. As well promotion and relegation would allow better teams to develop and teams that are in decline be relegated and try to regroup in a lower division.
Trying to incorporate a provincial championship into the system is a waste of time In any competition I am aware of the group stages are at the start of the competition to give all teams an equal number of games.
In hurling it worked as there is virtually equal number of teams in a provincial system. However there is a flaw in that the relegated team is automatically from Leinster. This should be played off at end of the year. Would you lay you house on it being Carlow if that was the case

windy shepard henderson

dr.kenneth noisewater wrote: »

in fairness thats nonsense, how can you have provincials with only some teams in it?

what ? the idea of the gaa changing the championship is to even up the games , so its either something like this or a tired championship

kerry dont play in the munster hurling championship if they are in the liam mccarthy cup , same as antrim who will also play in the leinster championship any time they are in the top tier in hurling

i don't see this to be any different , its either going to be something like this or a system in ladies football or hurling , that's what they are proposing and it will most likely go down the ladies football route of junior , intermediate and senior championships

Coillte_Bhoy

windy shepard henderson wrote: »

what ? the idea of the gaa changing the championship is to even up the games , so its either something like this or a tired championship

kerry dont play in the munster hurling championship if they are in the liam mccarthy cup , same as antrim who will also play in the leinster championship any time they are in the top tier in hurling

i don't see this to be any different , its either going to be something like this or a system in ladies football or hurling , that's what they are proposing and it will most likely go down the ladies football route of junior , intermediate and senior championships

Nothing wrong with change but keeping the provincials while not having the top teams play in them?? Makes no sense whatsoever, why not just scrap them? And using Kerry as en example is ridiculous, traditionally they havent played in Munster, its hardly the same as taking Mayo and Galway out of Connacht

windy shepard henderson

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Nothing wrong with change but keeping the provincials while not having the top teams play in them?? Makes no sense whatsoever, why not just scrap them? And using Kerry as en example is ridiculous, traditionally they havent played in Munster, its hardly the same as taking Mayo and Galway out of Connacht

the big problem in the gaa is the top heavy nature of the provincial championships , ie same teams wining all the time , leitrim have won 1 connacht in 50 odd years sligo have won 2 in that time

in munster only clare once 27 years ago have divided cork and kerry in 50 years

in ulster

antrim . over 50 years since last win
fermanagh : never won one
derry : 21 years since last win
cavan : 22 years since last win
down : 25 years since last win
armagh : 11 years since last win

leinster championship
wicklow : never won
kilkenny : over 50 years ago
carlow : over 50 years ago
longford : over 50 years ago
wexford : over 50 years ago
louth : over 50 years ago
kildare : 19 years ago
offaly : 22 years ago
westmeath : last win 15 years ago

the major problem is the provincial championships , by taking the stronger teams out of it it opens the door for each team remaining to have a realistic chance of success which would act as afar better spring board then wining an allireland B or C Championship

windy shepard henderson

plus it would also be interesting to see how well the likes of dublin and kerry would do if it was put up to them from the word go , rather then given a free run in the championship up to the last 8

windy shepard henderson

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The whole point of a tiered championship is that teams would be all playing teams of there own level more or less. As well promotion and relegation would allow better teams to develop and teams that are in decline be relegated and try to regroup in a lower division.
Trying to incorporate a provincial championship into the system is a waste of time In any competition I am aware of the group stages are at the start of the competition to give all teams an equal number of games.
In hurling it worked as there is virtually equal number of teams in a provincial system. However there is a flaw in that the relegated team is automatically from Leinster. This should be played off at end of the year. Would you lay you house on it being Carlow if that was the case

big problem i have is the majority of people wanting to say keep provincial championships have little or no research done ,

there is a real danger if we just keep going the way we are going that top football counties likes of down and derry , kildare offaly ect will get lost for good ,

i cant see how blaming dublin has anything to do with the fact the same 3 teams have dominated connacht for the last 50 years , on 3 occasions in that time did a team outside that bracket win a championship there

in munster its almost 80 years ago bar 1992 with clare that someone outside of cork or kerry won a provincial championship

leinster has had a competitive spell in the early part of the 2000s but is mainly dominated by dublin or meath over the last 50 odd years

ulster is the most competitive championship with 5 counties wining a championship in the last 25 years but given that a trend is starting to develop in both derry and down shows the need for change

what baffles me is why do people want to hang on to this format as it exists , if people want to hang on to the provincial championships well then they will probably need to be watered down or else a full blown change to the championship structure

intellectual dosser

The flaw of the tiered championship is the same flaw of the Super 8s...The strong teams get stronger and the weak teams stay weaker.

People may not like the soccer association, but a champions league format is the fairest solution that doesnt cast the Division 4 teams off into the abyss for all eternity.

Farawayhome

Carlow got another bad beating in the hurling, that's them done now, back down to their own tier. Then some other county gets the honour of getting thrashed by the big guns. Do you think it will be next year or the year after before they close of the avenue for any tier two team to compete in the real championship? This will also happen in the football. Tiered championships don't work.

dr.kenneth noisewater

Farawayhome wrote: »

Carlow got another bad beating in the hurling, that's them done now, back down to their own tier. Then some other county gets the honour of getting thrashed by the big guns. Do you think it will be next year or the year after before they close of the avenue for any tier two team to compete in the real championship? This will also happen in the football. Tiered championships don't work.

So club championships in every county in Ireland dont work?

Farawayhome

dr.kenneth noisewater wrote: »

So club championships in every county in Ireland dont work?

Apples and oranges.