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Tiered Championship

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    #182
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    A so called weaker side improves far more from playing teams of their own standard nearer theres than the current set up.

    We've discussed this, counties improve with proper funding. This has been proven. They don't improve when demoted into lower tiers. This has been proven.


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    #183
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    You should start a funding thread as you are just using this one to talk about it.


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    #184
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »
    You should start a funding thread as you are just using this one to talk about it.

    I've showed why the tiered championship won't work and I'm saying what does work. What's wrong with that?


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    #185
    robbiezero
    Registered Users Posts: 4,357 ✭✭✭robbiezero


    Farawayhome wrote: »
    As the Mayo poster pointed out, to improve standards, you must play against better quality opposition. Obviously, this won't happen if you get booted into this lower tier.
    So the aim of this lower tier clearly doesn't have the interests of the strength of football in these counties at heart. It's about removing them as they are an inconvenience.
    I don't see why anyone from these counties should stand for this, especially as some of the 'stronger' counties have been buying their way to the top.

    Louth or Antrim will have learnt absolutely nothing from their slaughterings at the weekend and it must be very hard to try and pick up for the qualifiers after such demoralizing hidings. Most of these teams recognize that the league is the path for them to improve more so than the championship.

    I would be in favour of a tiered championship with possibly something like the JoeMcDonagh for the second tier e.g. where the finalists can meet the 3rd places in each of the top tier in a prelimary knock out round.
    It might actually work quite well for the football, where realistically its a training game for the top tier teams in the hurling.


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    #186
    Coillte_Bhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,888 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    Farawayhome wrote: »
    Counties have earned their right. The GAA is not owned by Dublin and Mayo and counties like that. Instead of punishing the 'weaker' counties, let's have a closer look at the financial irregularities ongoing in these 'stronger' counties and sort out a system of fair play.

    Im sorry but what financial irregularities in Mayo are you talking about?


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    #187
    Coillte_Bhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,888 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    Farawayhome wrote: »
    As the Mayo poster pointed out, to improve standards, you must play against better quality opposition. Obviously, this won't happen if you get booted into this lower tier.
    So the aim of this lower tier clearly doesn't have the interests of the strength of football in these counties at heart. It's about removing them as they are an inconvenience.
    I don't see why anyone from these counties should stand for this, especially as some of the 'stronger' counties have been buying their way to the top.

    You have misunderstood my point. Obviously a team must earn the right to compete at the top by getting their on merit. Then they can play regularly agaisnt top opposition opposed to one or two games every year, which will involve a hammering. This year Leitirm got out of Div 4 and will play at a higher level next season. if they are good enough to stay there and compete they can aim for Division 2 etc etc. And i can tell you their league run to the final did more to boost the game in that county than their once in a blue moon shock result against a top team. They are an upward trajectory because they are playing at a level they can compete at.


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    #188
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    robbiezero wrote: »
    Louth or Antrim will have learnt absolutely nothing from their slaughterings at the weekend and it must be very hard to try and pick up for the qualifiers after such demoralizing hidings. Most of these teams recognize that the league is the path for them to improve more so than the championship.

    I would be in favour of a tiered championship with possibly something like the JoeMcDonagh for the second tier e.g. where the finalists can meet the 3rd places in each of the top tier in a prelimary knock out round.
    It might actually work quite well for the football, where realistically its a training game for the top tier teams in the hurling.

    I'm not going over old ground. Fund them, that's how you make them competitive.


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    #189
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »
    Im sorry but what financial irregularities in Mayo are you talking about?

    The finance available to Mayo isn't always stated in the official books, they're far from the only county at this but the level its at is up there above most.


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    #190
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »
    You have misunderstood my point. Obviously a team must earn the right to compete at the top by getting their on merit. Then they can play regularly agaisnt top opposition opposed to one or two games every year, which will involve a hammering. This year Leitirm got out of Div 4 and will play at a higher level next season. if they are good enough to stay there and compete they can aim for Division 2 etc etc. And i can tell you their league run to the final did more to boost the game in that county than their once in a blue moon shock result against a top team. They are an upward trajectory because they are playing at a level they can compete at.

    Counties have earned their right! They are apart of the GAA as much as Mayo is. In fact, I think it's far more reasonable to boot counties like Mayo, Dublin and Kerry out as they are using finance to advance their cause and are the root of the issues we are facing. They are also the ones most vocal about demoting 'weaker' counties.
    You've admitted that counties only get better by playing better teams. Throwing counties into a b championship goes against this. We already have a tiered competition in the league. Proponents of the tiered championship like to state that every sport in other countries have tiers but the truth is that in cup competitions, all teams get to enter and have a chance to succeed.


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    #191
    Coillte_Bhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,888 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    Farawayhome wrote: »
    The finance available to Mayo isn't always stated in the official books, they're far from the only county at this but the level its at is up there above most.

    Come on then out with it, where exactly are the irregularities you talked about? You're making false accusations without a shred of evidence


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    #192
    Coillte_Bhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,888 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    Farawayhome wrote: »
    Counties have earned their right! They are apart of the GAA as much as Mayo is. In fact, I think it's far more reasonable to boot counties like Mayo, Dublin and Kerry out as they are using finance to advance their cause and are the root of the issues we are facing. They are also the ones most vocal about demoting 'weaker' counties.
    You've admitted that counties only get better by playing better teams. Throwing counties into a b championship goes against this. We already have a tiered competition in the league. Proponents of the tiered championship like to state that every sport in other countries have tiers but the truth is that in cup competitions, all teams get to enter and have a chance to succeed.

    In most cup competition the lesser teams have to play a number of rounds before they get the chance to play with bigger teams and anyway cup competitions are normally secondary competitions, so its a flawed argument.


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    #193
    Coillte_Bhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,888 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    Farawayhome wrote: »
    Counties have earned their right! They are apart of the GAA as much as Mayo is. In fact, I think it's far more reasonable to boot counties like Mayo, Dublin and Kerry out as they are using finance to advance their cause and are the root of the issues we are facing. They are also the ones most vocal about demoting 'weaker' counties.
    You've admitted that counties only get better by playing better teams. Throwing counties into a b championship goes against this. We already have a tiered competition in the league. Proponents of the tiered championship like to state that every sport in other countries have tiers but the truth is that in cup competitions, all teams get to enter and have a chance to succeed.
    And wtf does this even mean?
    Farawayhome wrote: »
    Dublin and Kerry out as they are using finance to advance their cause


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    #194
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »
    Come on then out with it, where exactly are the irregularities you talked about? You're making false accusations without a shred of evidence

    Bury your head in the sand if you so wish.


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    #195
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »
    In most cup competition the lesser teams have to play a number of rounds before they get the chance to play with bigger teams and anyway cup competitions are normally secondary competitions, so its a flawed argument.

    It's not. You and others were claiming that tiered competitions were the norm, you were wrong. Not for the first time.


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    #196
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »
    And wtf does this even mean?

    And not the first time the meaning of something has flown right over your head. Look, you said that teams need to play against tougher opposition to improve their own level, you basically admitted the tiered championships won't work. Time to move on.


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    #197
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    It's going to happen.


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    #198
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »
    It's going to happen.

    I've no doubt that the current president is going to try to push this through. We can all see the media campaign in progress. It's up to the 'weaker' counties to stand together and fight against this.


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    #199
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Farawayhome wrote: »
    I've no doubt that the current president is going to try to push this through. We can all see the media campaign in progress. It's up to the 'weaker' counties to stand together and fight against this.

    My own county, easily the weakest of them all, does not deserve to be in anything other than a 2nd or 3rd tier. They shouldn't fight anything.


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    #200
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »
    My own county, easily the weakest of them all, does not deserve to be in anything other than a 2nd or 3rd tier. They shouldn't fight anything.

    If they want to give up, let them. Any county who feels they shouldn't be booted out of the championship for the 'big' counties convenience, they should fight like dogs against this.


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    #201
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    Just to show again where this leads. Offaly could be heading for the Christy Ring Cup next year. The tiered championship hasn't worked for them. Carlow were the team to get the bogey prize of promotion to the 'elites' this year. They're taking their whippings and will be back down to give someone else ago next year. Then soon they will close off that avenue as the tier 2 teams just can't compete at the top so they're wasting the 'elites' time. The team that were giving Carlow their beating this week were Dublin. They were minnows not so long ago. It wasn't the tiered championship that helped them.
    That's what they aim should be and that's what the 'weaker' counties should be fighting for.


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    #202
    Always_Running
    Registered Users Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭Always_Running


    Farawayhome wrote: »
    I've no doubt that the current president is going to try to push this through. We can all see the media campaign in progress. It's up to the 'weaker' counties to stand together and fight against this.


    GAA presidents don't have power they are figure heads and love to voice their opinion when in that role for 3 years. The ones with power in HQ are pushing hard to get this tiered championship through and there is little regard for the "weaker" counties. As journalist Marie Crowe said in her recent article "Separating weaker counties from the chasing pack will only widen the gulf between the top and bottom and for most there will be no way back"


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    #203
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Anyone who think Offaly's woes are to do with the hurling structure hasn't been paying attention. A ridiculously badly run county.


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    #204
    Always_Running
    Registered Users Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭Always_Running


    OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »
    Anyone who think Offaly's woes are to do with the hurling structure hasn't been paying attention. A ridiculously badly run county.


    Is that not the case with a lot of lower league football teams? Derry for example found themselves down in Div 4 this year because so badly run.


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    #205
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »
    Anyone who think Offaly's woes are to do with the hurling structure hasn't been paying attention. A ridiculously badly run county.

    Why ignore the rest? It doesn't matter what team comes up from tier 2, they get themselves a whipping. As has been said numerous times now, dumping teams out of the real championship doesn't in any way improve the standard of those counties, it makes the gap bigger.
    You can look at Offaly, you can look at Antrim, you can look at Laois and you can look at Dublin in hurling. The first 3 counties have gone backwards in the tiered system, the last county has jumped way forward through different means. That's the solution. It's staring everyone in the face.


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    #206
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Offaly, Antrim, or Laois would not be competing whether there were tiers nor not. Dublin haven't progressed any (arguably regressed) at the top tier in the past 5 years.


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    #207
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    Here's the Marie Crowe article. This is not wanted!



    There is no disputing that change is needed in Gaelic football. But why take away the hopes of so many players who have earned the right to dream of a big day by introducing a two-tier championship? There has to be a better way.

    In life, and sport, timing is everything and Dublin's hammering of Louth last Saturday provided the perfect springboard for GAA president John Horan to proclaim the need for a tiered championship two days later on RTÉ Radio.

    "There's an appetite out there within the organisation to go ahead with a tier two Championship and now is the time to grab that while the appetite is out there," said Horan.

    There was plenty of support for Horan's comments in the echo chamber that is social media, but what happens when the surface is scratched a little bit deeper.

    On hearing Horan's words I set about contacting players from so-called weaker counties to gauge their reaction to potentially being excluded from competing for the Sam Maguire.

    I was met with frustration, suspicion, exasperation and definitely a lack of appetite. The players I contacted want change alright but they also want help - they want more resources and better structures within their counties so they can improve. They certainly don't want to be demoted to a secondary competition.

    Before last weekend's Leinster quarter-final, Laois manager John Sugrue was talking structures in local publication Laois Today and he said: "Sure feck it, we'd probably be better off with a two-tier championship. We'd be better off if these kind of games didn't happen, inconveniencing lots of people who want to see the top eight play against each other. I think we should just whittle it down and have the best teams playing each other all the time and let everyone else play in back fields around the country."

    His frustration is clear. He painted a very grim picture. And with resources in media outlets already stretched, how would these games be covered? Who would promote this competition? Would it be relevant?


    A GPA survey revealed last year that almost 60 per cent of the members would support splitting the championship. But two years earlier, a GPA survey showed that Division 4 teams unanimously said they would boycott a proposed 'B' championship. So it would be interesting to see the breakdown of the most recent vote, to hear exclusively from those who would be affected. It's easy for those at the top to vote for something they will never have to face.

    Separating weaker counties from the chasing pack will only widen the gulf between the top and bottom and for most there will be no way back.

    Having the opportunity to compete at the top level is why players spend at least nine months of the year training, eating right, skipping nights out, missing holidays and ultimately giving their all. The commitment is huge and it's the same in every county - the players in Louth and Dublin work equally as hard, surely they deserve to be treated equally.

    Having more games is great, exciting ones are even better, but having meaningful ones trumps the lot. For these players, a shot at a big team, the chance to cause an upset is a bigger carrot than three tight ones in a competition no one really cares that deeply about.

    There is a new generation coming through who have different values, priorities and experiences. They have more opportunities and are exposed to a whole lot more because of social media. The world is a smaller place for the next generation.

    This is where the players of the future will come from. Of course playing for your county is still held in high esteem but it certainly isn't the be all and end all for many.

    Will doing the same training just to play in a secondary competition hold the same appeal as a chance to slay a lion in a meaningful game? Is this something a new generation of players will commit to? I'm not so sure.

    There appears to be a disconnect between those driving this second tier proposal and the generation of young people who will shape what the GAA looks like tomorrow.

    As for one-sided games, no matter who Dublin play outside the top few teams at the moment, it will be a mismatch and relegating half the country won't stop that.

    I speak to players on a regular basis. Every player I meet, regardless of where they are from has the same dream, they want to test themselves against the best and they want to win. It's not realistic for everyone but it should be respected.

    There are other options for the GAA to consider, such as an open draw, a Super Bowl format, a Champions League style competition - these, I suspect, are all much more palatable ideas for players than having 'A' and 'B' championships.

    Ultimately success starts with a dream. Why take that away from so many?


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    #208
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »
    Offaly, Antrim, or Laois would not be competing whether there were tiers nor not. Dublin haven't progressed any (arguably regressed) at the top tier in the past 5 years.

    Dublin were at the same level as Antrim and Laois and way behind Offaly. How did they go so far forward while the others went backwards? They were minnows just like Westmeath and Carlow also. Could you imagine any of these counties winning a national league or a Leinster championship?
    Whatever was done in Dublin works. They are competing at the top level. A tiered championship doesn't work. Offaly are close to going to tier 3.


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    #209
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Farawayhome wrote: »
    Dublin were at the same level as Antrim and Laois and way behind Offaly. How did they go so far forward while the others went backwards? They were minnows just like Westmeath and Carlow also. Could you imagine any of these counties winning a national league or a Leinster championship?
    Whatever was done in Dublin works. They are competing at the top level. A tiered championship doesn't work. Offaly are close to going to tier 3.

    Offaly are going close to tier 3 because they aren't winning games. The system isn't failing them, their hurling is.


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    #210
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Farawayhome wrote: »
    .

    There are good teams there are bad teams. Just because Offaly have an army of ex players telling everyone they have a God given right to be competing for All Irelands doesn't make them not a bad team.


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    #211
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Farawayhome wrote: »
    .

    Why did Cavan stop winning All-Irelands after the 50's and Tyrone start winning them in the 00's? All at the top tier too.

    You can wrap your head around all teams not staying at the same level for all time can't you?


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