Tiered Championship

Always_Running

Farawayhome wrote: »

I've no doubt that the current president is going to try to push this through. We can all see the media campaign in progress. It's up to the 'weaker' counties to stand together and fight against this.

GAA presidents don't have power they are figure heads and love to voice their opinion when in that role for 3 years. The ones with power in HQ are pushing hard to get this tiered championship through and there is little regard for the "weaker" counties. As journalist Marie Crowe said in her recent article "Separating weaker counties from the chasing pack will only widen the gulf between the top and bottom and for most there will be no way back"

OldMrBrennan83

Anyone who think Offaly's woes are to do with the hurling structure hasn't been paying attention. A ridiculously badly run county.

Always_Running

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Anyone who think Offaly's woes are to do with the hurling structure hasn't been paying attention. A ridiculously badly run county.

Is that not the case with a lot of lower league football teams? Derry for example found themselves down in Div 4 this year because so badly run.

Farawayhome

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Anyone who think Offaly's woes are to do with the hurling structure hasn't been paying attention. A ridiculously badly run county.

Why ignore the rest? It doesn't matter what team comes up from tier 2, they get themselves a whipping. As has been said numerous times now, dumping teams out of the real championship doesn't in any way improve the standard of those counties, it makes the gap bigger.
You can look at Offaly, you can look at Antrim, you can look at Laois and you can look at Dublin in hurling. The first 3 counties have gone backwards in the tiered system, the last county has jumped way forward through different means. That's the solution. It's staring everyone in the face.

OldMrBrennan83

Offaly, Antrim, or Laois would not be competing whether there were tiers nor not. Dublin haven't progressed any (arguably regressed) at the top tier in the past 5 years.

Farawayhome

Here's the Marie Crowe article. This is not wanted!

There is no disputing that change is needed in Gaelic football. But why take away the hopes of so many players who have earned the right to dream of a big day by introducing a two-tier championship? There has to be a better way.

In life, and sport, timing is everything and Dublin's hammering of Louth last Saturday provided the perfect springboard for GAA president John Horan to proclaim the need for a tiered championship two days later on RTÉ Radio.

"There's an appetite out there within the organisation to go ahead with a tier two Championship and now is the time to grab that while the appetite is out there," said Horan.

There was plenty of support for Horan's comments in the echo chamber that is social media, but what happens when the surface is scratched a little bit deeper.

On hearing Horan's words I set about contacting players from so-called weaker counties to gauge their reaction to potentially being excluded from competing for the Sam Maguire.

I was met with frustration, suspicion, exasperation and definitely a lack of appetite. The players I contacted want change alright but they also want help - they want more resources and better structures within their counties so they can improve. They certainly don't want to be demoted to a secondary competition.

Before last weekend's Leinster quarter-final, Laois manager John Sugrue was talking structures in local publication Laois Today and he said: "Sure feck it, we'd probably be better off with a two-tier championship. We'd be better off if these kind of games didn't happen, inconveniencing lots of people who want to see the top eight play against each other. I think we should just whittle it down and have the best teams playing each other all the time and let everyone else play in back fields around the country."

His frustration is clear. He painted a very grim picture. And with resources in media outlets already stretched, how would these games be covered? Who would promote this competition? Would it be relevant?


A GPA survey revealed last year that almost 60 per cent of the members would support splitting the championship. But two years earlier, a GPA survey showed that Division 4 teams unanimously said they would boycott a proposed 'B' championship. So it would be interesting to see the breakdown of the most recent vote, to hear exclusively from those who would be affected. It's easy for those at the top to vote for something they will never have to face.

Separating weaker counties from the chasing pack will only widen the gulf between the top and bottom and for most there will be no way back.

Having the opportunity to compete at the top level is why players spend at least nine months of the year training, eating right, skipping nights out, missing holidays and ultimately giving their all. The commitment is huge and it's the same in every county - the players in Louth and Dublin work equally as hard, surely they deserve to be treated equally.

Having more games is great, exciting ones are even better, but having meaningful ones trumps the lot. For these players, a shot at a big team, the chance to cause an upset is a bigger carrot than three tight ones in a competition no one really cares that deeply about.

There is a new generation coming through who have different values, priorities and experiences. They have more opportunities and are exposed to a whole lot more because of social media. The world is a smaller place for the next generation.

This is where the players of the future will come from. Of course playing for your county is still held in high esteem but it certainly isn't the be all and end all for many.

Will doing the same training just to play in a secondary competition hold the same appeal as a chance to slay a lion in a meaningful game? Is this something a new generation of players will commit to? I'm not so sure.

There appears to be a disconnect between those driving this second tier proposal and the generation of young people who will shape what the GAA looks like tomorrow.

As for one-sided games, no matter who Dublin play outside the top few teams at the moment, it will be a mismatch and relegating half the country won't stop that.

I speak to players on a regular basis. Every player I meet, regardless of where they are from has the same dream, they want to test themselves against the best and they want to win. It's not realistic for everyone but it should be respected.

There are other options for the GAA to consider, such as an open draw, a Super Bowl format, a Champions League style competition - these, I suspect, are all much more palatable ideas for players than having 'A' and 'B' championships.

Ultimately success starts with a dream. Why take that away from so many?

Farawayhome

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Offaly, Antrim, or Laois would not be competing whether there were tiers nor not. Dublin haven't progressed any (arguably regressed) at the top tier in the past 5 years.

Dublin were at the same level as Antrim and Laois and way behind Offaly. How did they go so far forward while the others went backwards? They were minnows just like Westmeath and Carlow also. Could you imagine any of these counties winning a national league or a Leinster championship?
Whatever was done in Dublin works. They are competing at the top level. A tiered championship doesn't work. Offaly are close to going to tier 3.

OldMrBrennan83

Farawayhome wrote: »

Dublin were at the same level as Antrim and Laois and way behind Offaly. How did they go so far forward while the others went backwards? They were minnows just like Westmeath and Carlow also. Could you imagine any of these counties winning a national league or a Leinster championship?
Whatever was done in Dublin works. They are competing at the top level. A tiered championship doesn't work. Offaly are close to going to tier 3.

Offaly are going close to tier 3 because they aren't winning games. The system isn't failing them, their hurling is.

OldMrBrennan83

Farawayhome wrote: »

.

There are good teams there are bad teams. Just because Offaly have an army of ex players telling everyone they have a God given right to be competing for All Irelands doesn't make them not a bad team.

OldMrBrennan83

Farawayhome wrote: »

.

Why did Cavan stop winning All-Irelands after the 50's and Tyrone start winning them in the 00's? All at the top tier too.

You can wrap your head around all teams not staying at the same level for all time can't you?

OldMrBrennan83

Ah **** this.

robbiezero

Farawayhome wrote: »

Just to show again where this leads. Offaly could be heading for the Christy Ring Cup next year. The tiered championship hasn't worked for them. Carlow were the team to get the bogey prize of promotion to the 'elites' this year. They're taking their whippings and will be back down to give someone else ago next year. Then soon they will close off that avenue as the tier 2 teams just can't compete at the top so they're wasting the 'elites' time. The team that were giving Carlow their beating this week were Dublin. They were minnows not so long ago. It wasn't the tiered championship that helped them.
That's what they aim should be and that's what the 'weaker' counties should be fighting for.

On one hand you are arguing that 4 games against top opposition will do nothing for Carlow hurling and on the other hand you are arguing that teams need to be playing against top opposition to improve. Which is it?

robbiezero

Farawayhome wrote: »

Dublin were at the same level as Antrim and Laois and way behind Offaly. How did they go so far forward while the others went backwards? They were minnows just like Westmeath and Carlow also. Could you imagine any of these counties winning a national league or a Leinster championship?
Whatever was done in Dublin works. They are competing at the top level. A tiered championship doesn't work. Offaly are close to going to tier 3.

Tiered or non-tiered championship had nothing to do with Dublins improvement in recent years.

Farawayhome

robbiezero wrote: »

On one hand you are arguing that 4 games against top opposition will do nothing for Carlow hurling and on the other hand you are arguing that teams need to be playing against top opposition to improve. Which is it?

robbiezero wrote: »

Tiered or non-tiered championship had nothing to do with Dublins improvement in recent years.

I thought it was pretty clear what I meant but it looks like I have to spell it out.

Obviously, the tiered championship hasn't had an impact on Dublin, that's exactly the point I was making. They improved with serious investment. That's what needs to be done with Carlow in hurling and with the 'weaker' counties in football. Throwing them into b and c championships clearly does not work. We know what works, it's there staring at us. Dublin were minnows in hurling, replicate what happened there in other counties.

Coillte_Bhoy

Farawayhome wrote: »

Bury your head in the sand if you so wish.

No, you mentioned financial irregularities so at least post some evidence?

Coillte_Bhoy

Farawayhome wrote: »

It's not. You and others were claiming that tiered competitions were the norm, you were wrong. Not for the first time.

Im getting a bit fed up of you deliberately misrepresenting me, and deliberately twisting my words to suit your argument. I was specifically referring to the major national championships in most sports as you well know and i mentioned that in cup tournaments very rarely do all teams start at the same level.

Coillte_Bhoy

Farawayhome wrote: »

And not the first time the meaning of something has flown right over your head. Look, you said that teams need to play against tougher opposition to improve their own level, you basically admitted the tiered championships won't work. Time to move on.

Once again you're deliberately misinterpreting me, i admitted no such thing.

Farawayhome

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

No, you mentioned financial irregularities so at least post some evidence?

You want me to break into Mayo GAA HQ and rob you some documents?

Farawayhome

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Im getting a bit fed up of you deliberately misrepresenting me, and deliberately twisting my words to suit your argument. I was specifically referring to the major national championships in most sports as you well know and i mentioned that in cup tournaments very rarely do all teams start at the same level.

You said a tiered system is how nearly every other country organises their championships. Clearly you are wrong. Most cup competitions are open to all.

Farawayhome

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Once again you're deliberately misinterpreting me, i admitted no such thing.

You did, you said that teams can only improve by playing other teams of a higher standard. That means the tiered system won't work. I'm not twisting your words, it's what you said.

Coillte_Bhoy

Farawayhome wrote: »

You said a tiered system is how nearly every other country organises their championships. Clearly you are wrong. Most cup competitions are open to all.

I said 'major' championship, again as you well know. I mean if you dont want to have a grown up discussion then fine, but at least have the honesty to accurately represent my views. And while yes re the cups again you are completely ignoring my actual point, that all teams dont start at the same round.

Coillte_Bhoy

Farawayhome wrote: »

You want me to break into Mayo GAA HQ and rob you some documents?

But you said this earlier

Farawayhome wrote: »

The finance available to Mayo isn't always stated in the official books,

So no point breaking in is there? so where are these documents detailing the irregularities? Mm surprised you are allowed make these outrageous allegations with impunity tbh

Farawayhome

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

I said 'major' championship, again as you well know. I mean if you dont want to have a grown up discussion then fine, but at least have the honesty to accurately represent my views. And while yes re the cups again you are completely ignoring my actual point, that all teams dont start at the same round.

You said major championships. And not all teams start in the same round in Gaelic Football either, doesn't mean it's not free for all teams to compete, just like most other countries.

Coillte_Bhoy

Farawayhome wrote: »

You did, you said that teams can only improve by playing other teams of a higher standard. That means the tiered system won't work. I'm not twisting your words, it's what you said.

Yes you ****ing are, i clearly said that playing 'regularly' (not once a year) at a higher level will bring teams on and referenced Roscommon and Cavan, now i also said that teams had to earn the right to play at a higher level level by coming through form the levels below, its really quite a simple concept really.

Farawayhome

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

But you said this earlier



So no point breaking in is there? so where are these documents detailing the irregularities? Mm surprised you are allowed make these outrageous allegations with impunity tbh

Official, as in released documents. As I said, bury your head in the sand if you want. Has anyone ever claimed managers in the GAA get paid on this forum?

Coillte_Bhoy

Farawayhome wrote: »

You said major championships. And not all teams start in the same round in Gaelic Football either, doesn't mean it's not free for all teams to compete, just like most other countries.

Yes thats exactly what i said and in most sports, knockout cup competitions aren't regarded as the major championship. No indeed not all teams start in the same round but thats mainly due to the draw, though i accept there are some seeding considerations in Leisnter and Munster

Coillte_Bhoy

Farawayhome wrote: »

Official, as in released documents. As I said, bury your head in the sand if you want. Has anyone ever claimed managers in the GAA get paid on this forum?

So what documents do you think are not being released? Are you accusing Mayo GAA of corrupt practice?

Farawayhome

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Yes you ****ing are, i clearly said that playing 'regularly' (not once a year) at a higher level will bring teams on and referenced Roscommon and Cavan, now i also said that teams had to earn the right to play at a higher level level by coming through form the levels below, its really quite a simple concept really.

So we already have a tiered system, it's called the league. Why do you want two? That's different to sports in nearly every other country.
Then you are arguing for a new system for the championship, one where teams can play against counties of a higher standard regularly. Let's figure out that system then as the tiered one was a bad idea.

Farawayhome

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Yes thats exactly what i said and in most sports, knockout cup competitions aren't regarded as the major championship. No indeed not all teams start in the same round but thats mainly due to the draw, though i accept there are some seeding considerations in Leisnter and Munster

Championships is plural so you were talking about more than one competition in all these other countries. Nearly every one has a tiered competition and a cup competition. Every team can enter the cup competition. I think we're finally getting places here.

Farawayhome

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

So what documents do you think are not being released? Are you accusing Mayo GAA of corrupt practice?

If you're not aware of what's going on in your own county, I can't help you.

Fr Tod Umptious

It's a pity this thread has gone to the dogs thanks to the posts of a single poster.

Farawayhome

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

It's a pity this thread has gone to the dogs thanks to the posts of a single poster.

I know Coilte Bhoy is contradicting himself constantly but he's allowed to post if he wants. The flaws in the tiered championship concept are being exposed.

Coillte_Bhoy

Farawayhome wrote: »

Championships is plural so you were talking about more than one competition in all these other countries. Nearly every one has a tiered competition and a cup competition. Every team can enter the cup competition. I think we're finally getting places here.

Have a bit of cop on and dont ****ing tell me what i was referring to, i know exactly what i meant. I was quite clearly was referring to the major/premier championshipS, in various countries and sports, ie English premiership is the major title in Englidh football, Champions Cup in European Rugby, bloody hell :rolleyes:

Coillte_Bhoy

Farawayhome wrote: »

If you're not aware of what's going on in your own county, I can't help you.

Oh i am, but you seem to think otherwise so Why not enlighten us then? You've basically accused Mayo GAA of being involved in corruption and cant provide a jot of evidencde.

Farawayhome

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Have a bit of cop on and dont ****ing tell me what i was referring to, i know exactly what i meant. I was quite clearly was referring to the major/premier championshipS, in various countries and sports, ie English premiership is the major title in Englidh football, Champions Cup in European Rugby, bloody hell :rolleyes:

Calm yourself down. Not the first time you've flown off the handle. You said major championships, most countries have more than one. We've already sorted out that the league is the GAA's tiered competition, you still haven't explained why you think two is necessary. A change in structure of the championship is something that should be looked into. Throwing counties out of the championship is not.

Farawayhome

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Oh i am, but you seem to think otherwise so Why not enlighten us then? You've basically accused Mayo GAA of being involved in corruption and cant provide a jot of evidencde.

Will if you already know of the irregularities, why do you keep asking me to spoon feed you?

Coillte_Bhoy

Farawayhome wrote: »

So we already have a tiered system, it's called the league. Why do you want two? That's different to sports in nearly every other country.
Then you are arguing for a new system for the championship, one where teams can play against counties of a higher standard regularly. Let's figure out that system then as the tiered one was a bad idea.

Most sports have at least two competitions, the premier one is a tiered system , the secondary one is usually a knockout where all teams are eligible to compete to a certain degree. I want a complete new structure with both league and cship in their present forms scrapped scrapped and the AI Football Cship to become a tiered round robin type system leading to a knockout AI series, and btw im not against the lesser teams being allowed enter provided they play off to allow the best of them to come through, eg like happens in the Champions League or Europa league

Coillte_Bhoy

Farawayhome wrote: »

Will if you already know of the irregularities, why do you keep asking me to spoon feed you?

But i dont, thats why im asking you to enlighten me. Why all the mystery?

Farawayhome

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Most sports have at least two competitions, the premier one is a tiered system , the secondary one is usually a knockout where all teams are eligible to compete to a certain degree. I want a complete new structure with both league and cship in their present forms scrapped scrapped and the AI Football Cship to become a tiered round robin type system leading to a knockout AI series, and btw im not against the lesser teams being allowed enter provided they play off to allow the best of them to come through, eg like happens in the Champions League or Europa league

Cup competitions aren't tiered, we've been over this. If you're so bothered by copying other countries then surely our cup competition should remain the same?
A structural change should be discussed, other than that it's clear that we need to look at the counties with questionable financial records before we dump other counties because they are seen as an inconvenience.

Coillte_Bhoy

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

It's a pity this thread has gone to the dogs thanks to the posts of a single poster.

Apologies. I should know better at this stage.

Farawayhome

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

But i dont, thats why im asking you to enlighten me. Why all the mystery?

You said you're aware of what's going on in your own county.

Farawayhome

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Apologies. I should know better at this stage.

No need to apologise. You are allowed to post your views, I don't mind correcting them.

Downlinz

The GAA need to sort out the blue elephant in the room before they restructure the championship. We're inevitably going to have additional teams involved so wielding the knife now wouldn't make much sense.
If they don't then a championship consisting of one team with home advantage, huge population advantage and a massive funding advantage isn't going to be viable regardless of structure.

Farawayhome

Downlinz wrote: »

The GAA need to sort out the blue elephant in the room before they restructure the championship. We're inevitably going to have additional teams involved so wielding the knife now wouldn't make much sense.
If they don't then a championship consisting of one team with home advantage, huge population advantage and a massive funding advantage isn't going to be viable regardless of structure.

A tiered championship is pointless as Dublin will just continue to win anyway. You're right, people are looking in the wrong direction when seeing how to resolve this mess.

windy shepard henderson

lads cut the nonsense bans handed out next

Hammer Archer

To add to windy's post, Farawayhome, you've made an insinuation about Mayo GAA. Either back it up with evidence, retract it or don't post in this thread again.

Farawayhome

Hammer Archer wrote: »

To add to windy's post, Farawayhome, you've made an insinuation about Mayo GAA. Either back it up with evidence, retract it or don't post in this thread again.

Mayo's American money? That's common knowledge, right? I hardly have to back that up?

PressRun

I thought Kieran Donaghy's proposal for a tiered championship was actually quite decent:
- Keep the provincials, but play them early in the year and use a round robin format so teams get a handful of games each, the winners of these championships get their silverware but it doesn't effect the AI championship.
- Then break for club championship in April.
- Let the hurling start in May and allow football teams to use that time to get back to intercounty set-ups and start training again.
- Then June start the AI football championship with a tiered structure - 2 groups of 8 in each tier, everyone plays each other, 3 home games, 3 away games, and 1 in a neutral venue, with neutral venues outside of Croke Park being used as much as possible. Top 2 teams from each group in each tier goes into the semis (with 1st v 2nd), and bottom teams from tier 1 get relegated, while finalists from tier 2 get promoted.
- In August/September, hold semi finals and finals.

I thought it was a pretty decent proposal with plenty of potential for great, even match ups and local derbys, which I presume is what everyone would like to see. It also allows people to hold onto some tradition by not totally scrapping the provincials. Also, crucially, it gives some consideration to the club player, who would be able to adequately balance their summer.

Farawayhome

A bit better. What about having the provincials at the start of the year as Donaghy said. Then for the championship, have a champions league type set up. With top 2 going through and bottom two going to the europa league.

Coillte_Bhoy

PressRun wrote: »

I thought Kieran Donaghy's proposal for a tiered championship was actually quite decent:
- Keep the provincials, but play them early in the year and use a round robin format so teams get a handful of games each, the winners of these championships get their silverware but it doesn't effect the AI championship.
- Then break for club championship in April.
- Let the hurling start in May and allow football teams to use that time to get back to intercounty set-ups and start training again.
- Then June start the AI football championship with a tiered structure - 2 groups of 8 in each tier, everyone plays each other, 3 home games, 3 away games, and 1 in a neutral venue, with neutral venues outside of Croke Park being used as much as possible. Top 2 teams from each group in each tier goes into the semis (with 1st v 2nd), and bottom teams from tier 1 get relegated, while finalists from tier 2 get promoted.
- In August/September, hold semi finals and finals.

I thought it was a pretty decent proposal with plenty of potential for great, even match ups and local derbys, which I presume is what everyone would like to see. It also allows people to hold onto some tradition by not totally scrapping the provincials. Also, crucially, it gives some consideration to the club player, who would be able to adequately balance their summer.

So the provincials then just basically replace the pres season FBD, O Byrne Cup etc then? After a few years they become meaningless, ive no issue with that btw, i think they have outlived their purpose, let them die. Re the structure of the cship i think one thing thats paramount is the need to avoid dead rubbers as far as possible which Donaghys system wouldnt do with just the top 2 qualifying. But its easy to come up with a formula once the principle has been agreed