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Compulsory HCAP - Cancelled
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cavan shooter wrote: »A couple of months ago the sports coalition of vested interests were muting a "safe pass" for shooters and we went ballistic at the thought. They muted a proposed ban on fox shooting
This course and it's proposal is a done deal and it's introduction is as a dodgy way of introducing the same course by the back door.
This Hcap is the thin end of the wedge and the start of what the sports coalition of vested interests are trying to do dominate the shooting scene for there own good. It looks as if the deer stalker is being singled out for this and been hung out to dry. Where is the Deer Associations on this matter.?
They are the ones that are pushing this as far as I can see. I have seen on Facebook that and I come to the conclusion through their posts that the country side alliance Ireland is in favor of this and that no money will be made from it 🀥🀥🀥 also from this same post that the Irish deer management forum have recommended this who ever they are.
I’m not sure this is going to get the attention it deserves as a lot of people seem to be in favor of it and there is not as much of an out cry as there was with the ban on night shooting (up to now anyway). I think this is the beginning of the end for the way shooting is now so enjoy it while you have it lads because soon we’ll be paying €1000 up to shoot a couple of pheasants and wearing plus fours and watching lads coining it in!!0 -
Now that's worrying.......but then again treachery is more complex than Judas and is 30 pieces of silver.cavan shooter wrote: »A couple of months ago the sports coalition of vested interests were muting a "safe pass" for shooters and we went ballistic at the thought. They muted a proposed ban on fox shooting
This course and it's proposal is a done deal and it's introduction is as a dodgy way of introducing the same course by the back door.
This Hcap is the thin end of the wedge and the start of what the sports coalition of vested interests are trying to do dominate the shooting scene for there own good. It looks as if the deer stalker is being singled out for this and been hung out to dry. Where is the Deer Associations on this matter.?
They are the ones that are pushing this as far as I can see. I have seen on Facebook that and I come to the conclusion through their posts that the country side alliance Ireland is in favor of this and that no money will be made from it 🀥🀥🀥 also from this same post that the Irish deer management forum have recommended this who ever they are.
I’m not sure this is going to get the attention it deserves as a lot of people seem to be in favor of it and there is not as much of an out cry as there was with the ban on night shooting (up to now anyway). I think this is the beginning of the end for the way shooting is now so enjoy it while you have it lads because soon we’ll be paying €1000 up to shoot a couple of pheasants and wearing plus fours and watching lads coining it in!!0 -
How many "full" attempts?What is that that juice1304 says about the range test ? People taking 3(three) attempts at the test ? Surely not on the same day. The manual does state that only 2(two) attempts are allowed on the one day.
Is this course being run properly ? if what juice1304 says is correct it does not seem to be maintaining a high standard,if any.
As it is you shoot at the "sighting" target. It's a 6 inch disc in the top right corner. If you fail this you can try once more. Fail it again and you go to the back of the list.
As for the deer part, if you pass the sighting part you move onto the deer target. Fail to get all six shots into the heart lung area and you fail. You can resit this part, but don't have to do the sighting part, only the deer part.
To me this is two attempts. If this is the case then yes, people have shot more than twice. In the last few years of seeing the hcap i've yet to see anyone walk away without their pass/cert.
I could be picking you up wrong, but if you mean the introduction of the mandatory hcap as being a done deal then i'd strongly disagree.cavan shooter wrote: »This course and it's proposal is a done deal and it's introduction is as a dodgy way of introducing the same course by the back door.
There are 8 weeks between the announcement and the so called introduction date. Given that the Dail will be in Christmas recess in about 5 weeks that means they must have legislation through in that timeframe.
To introduce a mandatory course with the same legal framework as the deer license, firearm license, security accommodation, etc, etc. there must be legislation making it a legal requirement. Otherwise it's just a "please do this" also known as a guideline.
Number 1 & 2 on my list of objections.
As i said in that list, and again i stand to be corrected as i'm not a solicitor or legal expert, even an SI would not solve this. The primary legislation [the relevant Wildlife and Firearm Acts] cannot be exceeded by secondary legislation [S.I.]. As such any such SI would change the Acts it would need to go through the Dail. Also the NPWS is not a legislative body. IOW unlike a County Council they cannot introduce secondary legislation at all. They [NPWS] are more like An Gardaí. Enforcement/administration only.
Yup.This Hcap is the thin end of the wedge and the start of what the sports coalition of vested interests are trying to do dominate the shooting scene for there own good. It looks as if the deer stalker is being singled out for this and been hung out to dry. Where is the Deer Associations on this matter.?
Our own "representatives" helping a body that is so underfunded they are desperate to find any other way to combat poaching than addressing the real issues.
Also target shooting has been in the line of fire for years, was only a matter of time before hunting came into the crosshairs.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.
Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo
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Don't want the thread to go off topic, but the more people know the better informed they are............ but we are told it doesn't matter as this is ireland. Sickens my guts this country sometimes.
A lot of the things you mentioned were pissed away by the same groups handing over large parts of our sports now. Refusal of reloading for one. It's a can of worms, but most people i speak to were unaware that the majority (approx 6 of the 7 major NGBs) refused reloading. Not they were refused it, but they refused the offer of it. It was so unbelievable the DoJ extended the time frame for receipt of applications by either 3 or 6 months, but still only one group applied.
Couple that with the inter personnel and political rows among the various groups and we [ the grander shooting community] have pissed away parts of our sports. In other countries they fight as one unit, for the most part, to keep what they have but not here.
It's only been one day.I’m not sure this is going to get the attention it deserves as a lot of people seem to be in favor of it and there is not as much of an out cry as there was with the ban on night shooting (up to now anyway).
We have time to challenge this and as above about the legislation and the given time frame to the enactment of this we can have it stopped and dismiss the stupid notion of it.
I've already gotten good feedback from some people and without breaking confidence i have seen replies asking for more information from some of those involved in making the decisions on this (not NPWS, deer alliance or sc).
So don't give up and get writing. It doesn't have to be a novel. Copy and paste my list if you have to. Its more about the amount of opposition. Hell if you only do this:
............... it'll suffice.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.
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A certain Mr Liam Nolan has proudly announced this on the WDAI this evening. Lot of questions to be asked as to how this came about and who benefits from the introduction of this as a mandatory requirement to obtain a deer permit.0
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Emails copied from grizGrizzly 45 wrote: »Minister for arts, culture, Gaeltacht,[nature&stuff:P]-heather.humphreys@oir.ie
Constituency Offices
Unit 2, Mall Road,
Co.Monaghan,
Ireland.
Eircode: H18 X282
Tel: 047-71911 || Fax: 047-71912
E-mail: heather.humphreys@oir.ie
79 Market Street,
Cootehill,
Co. Cavan,
Ireland.
Eircode: H16 E681
Tel: (049) 555 5501
NPWS liscensing
Email: wildlifelicence@ahg.gov.ie
Tel: (01) 888 3298 or (01) 888 3275 or (01) 888 3249
Deer Alliance,
P.O. Box 1,
Borris,
Co. Carlow.
Phone Number 086 1927 845
Email Address deeralliance@gmail.com
Email Address www.deeralliance.ie
Just noticed something about the deer alliance...NO DATA PROTECTION NOTICE OR STATEMENT ON PRIVACY on their website.Handling personal information, and what they do with it naughty, naughty.They don't seem to come up as a regd entity with the Data protection office website either?
WDAI
:+353 (0)87 2496987
Email: wilddeerireland@gmail.com Facebook and Twitter accounts as well.0 -
Cut-and-paste from CassSome ask why the opposition. Well here ya go. My reasons for opposing it.
- The NPWS and Deer Alliance have no authority to introduce any mandatory courses.
- There is no legislation in place to support this.
- An SI (someone floated the idea) cannot supersede primary legislation, of which none exists (for this exact topic).
- The HCAP was introduced for shooters on Coilte land. It is a CYA exercise.
- The HCAP was written by deer stalkers so what are their qualifications? I don't mean 30, 40, 50 years shooting, i mean registered, verifiable, qualifications.
- Coilte demand this cert, but what official recognition does it have (An Gardaí, DoJ, DoE, DoA.R.H.GA., etc)
- Where does the money go? Even now, presently, who gets it and how is it spent?
- Introducing proficiency as a prerequisite for a license is a dangerous precedence. How do you measure proficiency, what national standards are there, and who determines it's met (leads back to the qualifications of those deeming how proficient a person is).
- It will not combat poaching.
- Poaching is a criminal act, and those that do it are already breaking the law. How will further legislation stop those already intent on breaking the current laws?
- More legislation is not needed, only enforcement of the current legislation which comes under the guise of more rangers and stronger punishment for those caught.
- **This one is less factual and more emotive** I'ts my gun, licensed by An Gardaí who deem me competent, and private permissions given to me by land owners so the deer alliance have no say in what i do.
EDIT; Copied and sent to minister, NPWS.0 -
Now, next thing Blizzard the email accounts and phone message boxes of those accounts with the same messages.BE POLITE and TACTFUL and use Cass's 11 points you want to be explained LEAVE a return call number for yourself.... They will soon get the message that there is a whole bunch of people out there very pissed off.Get your missus and kids and relatives in on the act as well. It will get really boring after awhile for them. Also,we can suggest a boycott of both the NPWS and HCAP,as thy are pushing legislation that is illegal here too and get some media attention on this as well. And maybe people should be poking the NARGC as well on this issue?
BTW the suggestion of the SI sufficing came from ...Guess who? The NPWS themselves.. Seen an email sent to one lad on FB from a Gabriel Staunton in NPWS."If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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The Deer Alliance have posted a reply on their website, it is very long winded so not 100% through it myself but wanted to share with others.
http://deeralliance.ie/blog/0 -
RossiFan08 wrote: »The Deer Alliance have posted a reply on their website, it is very long winded so not 100% through it myself but wanted to share with others.
http://deeralliance.ie/blog/
One thing in there struck me as a bit odd, it is claimed that HCAP is accredited by An Garda Siochana. I sincerely doubt that. Accepted as proof of competency to handle a rifle probably yes, just like for example the NARGC safety course is accepted and just like range membership is accepted for good reason for possession of a .22lr pistol. Accredited as being recommended by the Acting Commissioner, I doubt it.0 -
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meathstevie wrote: »One thing in there struck me as a bit odd, it is claimed that HCAP is accredited by An Garda Siochana. I sincerely doubt that. Accepted as proof of competency to handle a rifle probably yes, just like for example the NARGC safety course is accepted and just like range membership is accepted for good reason for possession of a .22lr pistol. Accredited as being recommended by the Acting Commissioner, I doubt it.
Ang again, how can you do a hcap without a gun licence, and therefore how do AGS accept it as a competency, as you would need to do the hcap first to get the competency ?0 -
What is that that juice1304 says about the range test ? People taking 3(three) attempts at the test ? Surely not on the same day. The manual does state that only 2(two) attempts are allowed on the one day.
Is this course being run properly ? if what juice1304 says is correct it does not seem to be maintaining a high standard,if any.
On the day I was there, two lads from the first detail were still trying to pass on the sixth or seventh firing detail when I left. I wouldn't be surprised if they are still there trying :mad::rolleyes::mad:
To me this is two attempts. If this is the case then yes, people have shot more than twice. In the last few years of seeing the hcap i've yet to see anyone walk away without their pass/cert.
.
From what I have seen, this does not surprise me in the least. :mad:0 -
Grizzly 45 wrote: »BE POLITE and Also,we can suggest a boycott of both the NPWS and HCAP,as thy are pushing legislation that is illegal here too and get some media attention on this as well.
Maybe boycotting is playing into the hands of those that want to make deer stalking an "exclusive" sport, commercializing it and making it a sport for the well off. They would be happy to see the back of most of us.0 -
For what it's worth, I think people here need to forget 'it's illegal, it will need Dail approval etc' argumemnt, that boat never left the ship yard let alone sailed.
The already ammended Act allows the minister to do as he sees fit in circumstances such as this.
Your grievance needs to aimmed at those who will feel uncomfortable with the negative attention and lack of support. This action has been clearly outlined here within the the thread.
I'm only throwing my tupence worth in because it obvious that some are pinning their hopes on a lost argument which could be redirected more effectively else where.0 -
[QUOTE=cookimonster;105163052]
The already ammended Act allows the minister to do as he sees fit in circumstances such as this.
Could you please show us Cookie where it has been amended to include HCAP as a mandatory pre-qualification?"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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28.—(1) A person shall not with firearms hunt or kill on any land an exempted wild
mammal or a protected wild bird of a species specified in an order under section 24 of this Act which is for the time being in force unless—
(a) the exempted wild mammal or the protected wild bird is hunted or killed pursuant to and in accordance with a licence granted under this Act, or deemed to have been granted under section 29 of this Act, and
(b) the person is in relation to the land a qualified person for the purposes of this
section.
(2) A person shall in relation to land be qualified for the purposes of this section if
he is at least sixteen years of age and—
(a) is entitled to sporting rights over the land, or
(b) is the guest, invitee, servant or agent, or possesses the written authority of a
person who is entitled to sporting rights over the land, or
(c) is a member of a body of persons which is entitled to sporting rights over the
land or which has such authority, or
(d) is a person who is of a class or description which the Minister by regulations
declares to be a qualified class or description for the purposes of this section.
[(2A) (a) An applicant for—
(i) the grant of a licence under section 29 of this Act, or
(ii) the grant or renewal of a certificate to which section 29(5) of this Act relates, may, before the granting of any such licence or the granting or renewal of any such certificate, be required to supply satisfactory evidence that the applicant is a competent person to hold such a licence.
(b) The evidence required under paragraph (a) of this subsection shall include
the ability to identify certain species of fauna and to have a satisfactory knowledge of the relevant provisions of the Wildlife Acts, 1976 and 2000, and of any instruments made under those Acts.
(c) The Minister may make regulations for the purpose of giving effect to this
subsection.]
This is the document the above text is taken from, if you open it or download you will see the section that seem to have been updated highlighted in a different colour text...
Number 39 of 1976 WILDLIFE ACT 1976 REVISED Updated to 1 January 2017 This ... - Revised Acts - Law Reform Commission
I have already posted this in a previous thread dealing with deer licences.....it does not specify HCAP but does talk about requirement of evidence of comptency....tell me I'm wrong and I'll go back to my pots and pans.0 -
wexfordman2 wrote: »Ang again, how can you do a hcap without a gun licence, and therefore how do AGS accept it as a competency, as you would need to do the hcap first to get the competency ?
You don't need a licence to fire a "club" gun at a range. If that was the case commercial ranges would not be able to operate all sorts of guest packages but that's a bit of an irrelevant detail in the context of this discussion.0 -
meathstevie wrote: »You don't need a licence to fire a "club" gun at a range. If that was the case commercial ranges would not be able to operate all sorts of guest packages but that's a bit of an irrelevant detail in the context of this discussion.
Fair point, but you now have a situation where in order to do or pass the hcap, you prob need to join a range.0 -
I must have met a Garda who was years ahead of the rest when I applied for my first shotgun licence. Went into the station, told him I was looking for a shotgun licence for hunting. He actually asked me a few relevant question like what I was going to hunt, can you hunt hen pheasants, would you be able to shoot deer with that etc etc.... .After about 10 to 15 minutes and a bit of rattling away on the computer he accepted my paperwork and a week or two later I had my licence.0
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Soem thoughts on the points raised, but the first one is notice at the very start how they say "misinformation" and "confusion". The same wording the so called coalition used when it was found out they put forward a proposal (with these groups) to ban night time hunting. IOW we're all to stupid or ignorant to understand.RossiFan08 wrote: »The Deer Alliance have posted a reply on their website, it is very long winded so not 100% through it myself but wanted to share with others.
http://deeralliance.ie/blog/
Point 1 - "Non profit". Where does the money go then? If its for Coilte then why is it necessary for shooting outside of Coilte lands?
Point 2 - "Stakeholders". So it' made up of lads that came together to form an association. As i said earlier that does not qualify them as experts and there is no mention of accredited certificates/qualifications to show they're are competent other than "time served" in the sport.
Point 3 - They say they have been pushing for hcap style training for decades. No wonder when you get €150 per head. As for the amount of people that have completed it. I don't doubt some have done it just to have it, but the number they quote (2,600) does not account for those that done the hcap but no longer shoot or no longer shoot coilte lands.
Point 4 - Basically the FCP for deer stalkers/hunting.
Point 5 - A lot to cover here. These "stakeholders" decided to propose a mandatory hcap for everyone that wanted a DHL. They talk about marksmanship and safe storage handling of firearms. Marksmanship is proficiency, not competency. We discussed this at length and how making proficiency a prerequisite for a firearms license is a dangerous precedence and something that cannot be judged on a single act. It is also something that can increase or decrease over time. So it'll be a constant process of evaluation. Safe handling and storage of a firearm is done when you apply for a firearm and has nothing to do with hcap or the "stakeholders" that run it. It's a matter for An Gardaí and cannot be given to private groups. Lastly the proposal for a mandatory hcap was accepted by the Minister. Well then where is the legislation, amendment to the existing act or SI?
Point 6 - Where were the proposals, decisions, recommendations and acceptance published? Was every effort made to let people know this was happening and being implemented?
Point 7 - In short we're going to make approx €600,000 over the next five years. For a non profit that is good money. So again where does it go?
Point 8 - Now we're getting there. So a single hcap test of say 100 lads brings in €15,000. Each Deer alliance person gets a fee for their day. The range gets a fee for the test, and the location of the MCQ gets a fee. The rest goes to administration of the website, internet service provider costs, and "indirect costs". So break it down. Range costs about €1,500 (100 x €15 per head). Each deer alliance man getting say €300 for their day is 5 x €300 so another €1,500. The hotel/location for the MCQ is most likely about €300 (i've hired function rooms and they are about this). Website domain names, and admin hosting costs are something i'm not sure on but can we agree on €50 per month. Allowing for a couple of tests er year it's hard to figure the cost per test but we'll half the yearly cost and say €300 for 6 months. So we're up to €3,600. Soem things do't make sense. ISP (internet srvice provider). This is the monthly internet fee. Usually between €15 to €50 per month. I'd assume it's done by the website management crowd so would be part of the fee above? Also travel costs. If each man is paid for his day does that not include travel costs too? Say they are separate costs. Allow another €600 for both. That makes €4,200. The hcap manual costs €35 so that more than covers printing fees so that doesn't count. So rounding up for any unknown or shortfall i expenses and we can call it €5,000 in expenses per test. So they take in €15,000 and spend €5,000. Where is the other €10,000 gone?
Point 9 - Brilliant. We're accredited, but actually we're not because, as i said before, NO group, association, person, etc. has official recognition from any state body. Yes Coilte accept the hcap, but they called for it, and acceptance is not the same as being officially recognized.
Point 10 - This one is a pot shot at anyone thinking of setting up. In shrot what they are saying is because we've been doing it for 12 years why would the NPWS allow anyone else to come along and provide a course that could challenge our monopoly. Fecking priceless. Well it'll happen. You find either fly by nights or proper set ups. In fact i'd love to see a few other gorups or ranges starting this. See how much they support mandatory hcap when others are dipping into the cash flow, because according this point the only reason someone would dare to set up an alternative is for monetary reasons. Well as with point 8, where does the money they get go?
Point 11 - This will make us all better is what they are saying here and anyone who opposes it (probably us they;re speaking about) is wrong. Well the MCQ is a joke according to those i've spoken to about and it and the range test is just as bad. Failing multiple times only to be allowed to repeat it until you pass is not a test. So jog on with that.
Point 12 - Won't someone think of the children, basically. IOW only genuine stalkers will support this and if you don't then you're not a stalker. Bullsh*t. We are not opposed to education, we are opposed to a consortium of private groups making a sh*t ton of money out of a proposal they set forward. Deer are free in this country. No one owns them. Yet they seek to privatize the sport under the guise of education.
Point 13 - As cookimonster mentioned above this was the fear, that it'd be introduced as a condition. Right so, as with the competence, the act does not specify hcap. It says "or equivalent". So if i put forward 10, 15, 25, 30 years of shooting experience does that not show the necessary experience? If so how do they test me to see i have it. Like with the competence courses the cert from a course is only one of four ways to prove competence so surely there must be other ways than the hcap to prove competence?
These proposals were, to the best of my knowledge, not well known about if at all. Opposition when they were proposed would have given us two years to counter them. Instead we get this at the last minute. While some will say they are opposed you'll be surprised at the amount of people that will do the course rather than not go for the license.
When it turns to other forms of hunting i wonder if they'll be as magnanimous.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.
Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo
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Looks like they are not happy about the petition but its a free country for now apparently!!! but it only has 280 signatures so far. GET SIGNING :D
and apparently the petition "appears to be based on a fear of regulation which will deter new comers to the sport but this is unfounded as analysis of the DHL will demonstrate" yes there are new comers to the sport but there is no mandatory certification so how is this a demonstration of how new comers will react?
As has been said numerous times I am not opposed to learning even paying paying for this course IF the money is being returned to the sport for funding etc but I am opposed to people trying to make quick and easy money by making something mandatory. Why not put it too a vote of all hunters in all the organisations?
If it can be proved to me that this will curb Poaching, reduce bad practices and over all be good for the sport(and stay this way) then No problems I will gladly support it but until then I will stay opposed to this!!!!0 -
Another question should be to all these HCAP proponents..Have you passed your own HCAP exam?If not , why not?So if you are claiming exemption because of your "experience of X number of years stalking"..Then that exemption has to apply to others of the same time experience too.
"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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Speaking of boycotts. If no range allowed them the use of their facilities they'd be in a fix ............... just a thought
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Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »Speaking of boycotts. If no range allowed them the use of their facilities they'd be in a fix ............... just a thought
Isn't Midlands the only range that can accommodate the course, given it is full bore, long range shooting?0 -
Should save 25 euros for the manual,and make the multiple choice test part alot easier.
Found this on a thread from earlier this year.:)
SAMPLE HCAP QUESTIONS
1. What is the commonest and most widespread species of deer in Ireland?
a. Fallow
2. To whom are you obliged to show your hunting licence if challenged while out stalking?
a. Coillte Representatives
b. Garda
c. Wild Life Rangers
d. All of the above
3. What are the best months to carry out a census of woodland deer?
a. March-April
4. What are the main physical differences between sika deer and fallow deer?
a. Tail length
b. Antler Type
c. Caudal Patch (rump)
d. All of the above
5. What should be the main objectives of a good deer manager?
a. Shoot enough deer to keep the herd in balance with the habitat available.
6. "Deer are colour-blind, so wearing hi-visibility clothing while stalking (as recommended by Coillte) has no effect on the success or failure of your stalk". Is this statement true or false?
a. True
7. "The current standard Coillte sporting licence stipulates that, for health, animal disease prevention and vermin control reasons, the gralloch (offal or viscera from a shot deer) must always be buried inside the forest immediately after shooting". Is this statement true or false?
a. False
8. You have shot a deer and wish to sell the carcass to a registered game dealer. You have no chilling facilities at home. Within what time frame must the carcass be presented to the game dealer?
a. 12
9. Where are scent glands in deer located?
a. Suborbital -under eyes
b. Interdigetal- between hooves
c. Metatarsal -below hock
d. All three
10. What is the average gestation period in Irish deer species?
a. 71/2-8 months 240days
11. Where should you place warning notices prior to commencing stalking on Coillte property?
a. All points of entry to the property
12. What is the minimum legally-required muzzle energy of a rifle intended for hunting deer?
a. 1,700lb/ft
13. What is the minimum recommended deer legal calibre
a. .240, with 100 grain bullet and 1900 foot-pounds of energy at muzzle.
14. Bovine tuberculosis is a scheduled and notifiable disease. If you find evidence of TB in a deer carcase, who must bylaw be notified?
a. Local District Veterinary Office
15. When examining a deer carcase for bovine tuberculosis, where should you look for evidence of infection or abscessation?
a. Lymph nodes
b. Lung tissue
c. Liver tissue
d. All three
16. Where are the retropharyngeal lymph nodes located?
a. Head
17. The current open season for fallow does in Co. Dublin runs from what date to what date?
a. 1st November - 28th February
18. The current closed season for sika stags in Co. Wicklow is from what date to what date?
a. 31st December - 28th February
19. Within which daily time frame may you legally hunt wild deer on private land (assuming that you are fully licensed and authorised in every respect)?
a. From one hour before dawn until one hour after sunset
20. The current standard Coillte licence /permit allows you to stalk deer between what hours of each day?
a. From dawn until 11.00hrs (am)
21. You want to do a deer count on the forest area that you stalk, in order to confirm the proposed cull. You propose doing this at night with the aid of a lamp. In what circumstances can you do this?
a. Under licence from NPWS
22. Who owns wild deer while they are alive?
a. No body
23. Who owns wild deer once they are legally hunted, shot and killed?
a. The Stalker
24. The ordinary period for which a deer hunting licence maybe granted runs from what date to what date?
a. Aug 1 - July 31
25. You are out shooting foxes during the closed season for deer, on land where you have permission to hunt deer. In what circumstances may you legally shoot red deer?
a. For humane reasons only
26. You are out shooting foxes during the closed season for deer, on land where you have permission to hunt deer. In what circumstances may you legally shoot sika or fallow deer?
a. For humane reasons only
27. Where is the caudal disc located on a sika deer?
a. The rump
28. What is the current minimum age at which application may be made for a deer hunting licence?
a. 16
29. What is the current minimum age at which a person is entitled to hold a full firearms certificate?
a. 16
30. The effect of rising deer numbers in an area is likely to be first noticed by observing what?
a. Damage to agricultural land and farm crops
31. What is meant by "the shot clock"?
a. Shows the optimum area for bullet placement
32. In what circumstances may a deer if found injured on the road, apparently beyond the prospect of saving, be legally killed?
a. Any time, by anyone.
33. Coillte reserves concurrent rights to control deer on some licensed properties. When will these rights normally be exercised and to remove what type of animals?
a. Deer and other species when it is considered necessary for good management.
34. Motorised vehicular access to Coillte property is permitted for what purposes only?
a. Retrieval of carcasses only
35. When is it legal in Ireland to hunt or kill deer with a bow and arrow especially designed for deer hunting?
a. Never
36. The metatarsal gland on a sika hind is located where?
a. Hock / Leg
37. The metatarsal gland on a mature sika stag is what colour?
a. White
38. You shoot a deer, which kicks out high in the air with its hind legs before moving off with lowered head and hunched back. In what part of its body has it most likely been shot?
a. Stomach
39. A distinct trail of bright red blood indicates a deer shot in what part of its body?
Heart
a.
40. A reasonable estimation of the age of a culled male deer can be gained from what aspects of its body?
a. Size and shape of pedicle / antlers
41. What should be the correct point of aim when shooting at a target steeply below the shooter?
a. Lower than normal point of aim
42. What should be the correct point of aim when shooting at a target steeply above the shooter?
a. Lower than normal point of aim
43. When shooting deer in woods or on level ground safety can be improved by:
a. Using a high seat
44. Which of the following deer wallow most readily?
a. Sika / Red
45. When should you take off the safety catch whilst deer stalking?
a. When you are in the aim and about to squeeze the trigger
46. Stalking in fog is:
a. Dangerous because you cannot be sure of a safe backdrop
47. Where are a deer's antlers shed and regrown from each year?
a. The pedicle
48. Slka hinds usually
a. Give birth to a single calf
49. Tree bole scoring with antler points is predominantly done by which of the following species?
a. Sika / hybrids
50. How many offspring will wild Red deer hinds produce?
a. They will very rarely bear twin calves
51. Which is the best point of aim to ensure a humane kill at most sensible distances?
a. Half way up the body just behind the shoulder
52. If you only intend to shoot one deer, how much ammunition should you carry whilst stalking?
a. One round loaded in the rifle, more than one in the magazine and some spare in a pocket
53. Which of the following items is the most important for a sensible stalker to carry with him whilst out stalking?
a. A pull through and cleaning patch
54. How is a Sika stag's rutting activity in woodland best described?
a. Using a rutting stand to attract hinds
b. Herding hinds into a harem
c. Defence of a territory
d. A mixture of all three strategies
55. What best describes a Red hind's alarm call?
a. A deep bark
56. You shoot a deer and it falls down, when you approach it you believe it to be dead, what should your first action be?
a. Check it is dead by touching an eyeball and watching for reaction
57. Which of the follwing best describes the behaviour pattern within a Red deer hind herd
a. There is a definite pecking order of
58. For a few days after their birth, young deer generally:
a. Are left alone in cover by their mothers between suckling
59. What is the correct name for black coloured Fallow deer?
a. Melanistic
60. The majority of highland Red deer when resting:
a. Usually lie down watching downhill
61. What is the term used to describe the covering of a deer's growing antlers
a. Velvet
62. If firing at a deer 100 yards away with a strong 30 mph wind blowing from left to right and you have to take the shot, where should you aim?
a. 3 inches left
63. You are offered some ammunition hand loaded by a friend which he finds performs well in his rifle. What should you do?
a. Test the ammunition when you next go to the range
64. "Browsing" is the term which describes:
a. Deer feeding on leaves and buds
65. How would you describe a Sika hind's alarm call?
a. A short sharp squeak
66. Which species are Sika deer closest in size to?
a. Fallow deer
67. For the rut the neck of a Fallow buck looks much thicker because?
a. Neck muscles have enlarged
68. If lice are present which is the most likely area in which to notice them on a deer
a. Groin
69. What is the feeding pattern of mature Red stags during the peak of the rut?
a. They feed very little and lose weight
70. What colour are the caudal markings and back stripe on menil Fallow?
a. Lig ht brown
71. Deer are rarely seen to drink. This is because:
a. They get most of the water they need from their food
72. After having bred once, a Red hind is likely to?
a. Occasionally miss a year and not bear a calf
73. A reasonable estimation of the age class of a deer when it has been killed can be gained from:
a. The amount of wear on its teeth
74. Which of the following species most obviously flares out the hair on its rump patch when alarmed?
a. Sika
75. The male of which the following species grows a mane in the rut?
a. Red deer
76. When do most mature Sika stags cast their antlers?
a. March
77. When is the peak of the Fallow rut?
a. October/November
78. What is indicated by a Red deer which watches intently and stamps its foot?
a. It is suspicious at something seen, but not identified
79. If you accidentally plug your barrel with peat or snow, what should you do?
a. Unload all cartridges at once and clean the bore
80. "Pronking" is a gait usually associated with which species of deer?
a. Fallow
81. What colour is the velvet covering the antlers of Japanese Sika stags?
a. Black
82. When taking a shot in the field it is good practice and an aid to accuracy:
a. To place the hand holding the fore-stock between a firm surface and the stock for support
83. What is the main purpose of stalking to within easy range of a deer?
a. To ensure a humane kill
84. If, on a telescopic sight one click of the adjustment knob will move the bullet impact 1 centimetres at 100m.How far will bullet impact move per click at 25 metres?
a. 1/4 centimetre
85. What is the maximum distance that a bullet from a deer rifle might travel if there is no solid backstop?
a. 3500 - 4500 metres
86. Fraying is the term used to describe which activity of a male deer?
a. Rubbing the bark from trees and shrubs with antlers
87. A female deer will not conceive unless:
a. She reaches a certain threshold body weight
88. In the spring Fallow deer are usually found
a. In groups with the does and fawns living separately from the older bucks
89. The word hind is correctly applied to the female of which of the following deer species?
a. Sika
90. If your rifle is zeroed "spot-on" at 100 yards, approximately where will your shots at 200 yards go?
a. A few inches low
91. In order to contain or exclude Red deer an effective fence should be?
a. 2 metres high
92. Scent glands in deer are located:
a. Between hooves, in corner of eye and outside hock
93. What is the spin imparted to a bullet by the rifling intended to do?
a. Improve its stability in flight
94. Which male antlered deer usually cast their antlers first?
a. Old animals
95. What does the call of a rutting Fallow buck on his stand sound like?
a. A rhythmic belching noise repeated continuously for some minutes
96. You are stalking in woodland and spot a deer from a range of about 40 metres behind a large tree. All you can see is the animal's head looking sideways. What is the recommended procedure for taking a shot?
a. Wait until it exposes the chest area and take a heart/lung shot
97. What is included in a territorial display typical of Sika stags in woodland
a. Scoring the bark of trees deeply with their antler points
98. Which of the following statements is true about warble fly in deer?
a. It is common in Red deer in Scotland has been reported in Donegal
99. Compared to Sika deer, Fallow deer have
a. A longer tail
100. Within woodlands, at what range are the majority of deer shot?
a. 0-100 metres
101. In what month is the usual peak of the Red deer rut
a. October
102. In Red deer, a 'Royal' head has:
a. 12 points with 3 in a "crown" on each top
103. Which of the following is NOT true? During the rut Fallow bucks
a. Make scrapes
104. Before you climb into a highseat what should you do:
a. Check the ladder and seat for damage and unload your rifle before climbing into the seat
105. After successfully shooting a deer from a group, what should you do?
a. Stay still until the remaining deer in the immediate area have moved out of sight
106. You are on a steep bank above a deer, which shooting position is likely to be the most comfortable and stable?
a. Sitting
107. You find some conspicuous curiously flattened insects scuttling through the deer's hair. What are they?
a. Keds
108. Which of these species seldom has upper canine teeth when mature?
a. Fallow
109. When do the majority of Red stags normally cast their antlers?
a. March-May
110. Mature Red stags and hinds:
a. Form separate single sex herds except during the rut
111. Describe what a bullet's trajectory is?
a. The path of the bullet in flight
112. If a shot at a deer for no apparent reason misses or does not hit where expected, before shooting at another deer a responsible stalker should do what?
a. Fire carefully at a target to check the rifle is still correctly zeroed
113. Which of the following statements best describes the damage inflicted on trees by Red deer
a. Red deer eat tree bark by chiselling and stripping it off
114. When are most Sika calves born?
a. May/June
115. The use of a stick (or split sticks) as a stalking aid is:
a. Sensible because it makes shooting and spying steadier
116. Which of these external parasites can carry Lyme Disease?
a. Ticks
117. How is a newly-born Red deer calf coloured?
a. Chestnut coloured with dappled white spots
118. After the shot, the deer kicks out with its hind legs and rushes into cover with neck outstretched. Traces of pink and frothy blood are found. Where has it been hit?
a. The lungs
119. When a deer drops instantly to the shot, what should you do?
a. Remain where you are, ready to shoot again if it seems about to rise
120. What type of antler growth does a Red deer "hummel" have?
a. No antlers
121. If you leave oil in your rifle barrel what is likely to happen to your first shot at 100 metres?
a. It will go somewhere other than where the rifle is normally
122. Good, mature, Fallow bucks usually carry antlers which are?
a. Wide and flattened or palmated
123. Which of the following species of deer is considered native to the Ireland i.e. resident in here since the Ice Age?
a. Red
124. To what is the term 'knobber" in Red deer attributed?
a. A young stag yet to grow his first antlers
125. If you have to shoot an injured deer at close range by shooting it again, what should you do?
a. Ensure there is a soft safe backstop behind the deer to stop the bullet
126. To which species are Sika deer most closely related to?
a. Red deer
127. You should check the lymph glands associated with a deer's gut for signs of disease. When you do so healthy lymph glands should be?
a. Coloured grey or pinky brown
128. When stalking deer in thick cover you should:
a. Not take any shots at deer behind bushes or other cover
129. When are the majority of Fallow fawns born?
a. June/July
130. If a Red deer calf is orphaned early in the open hind season might it?
a. Pine away for lack of parental attention
131. When do Red stags usually stand on their hind legs and box with their forefeet?
a. After they have cast their antlers
132. When should the bolt be removed from the rifle whilst stored in the home
a. All the time to avoid its use by an unauthorised person e.g. child/thief
133. How would you describe the rump markings of a "common" variety of Fallow deer?
a. A white disc with black horseshoe-shaped mark round the upper side and a broad black stripe onthe tail
134. Before zeroing your rifle what should you do?
a. Clean the bore and check the bedding and mounting screws are tight
135. In late autumn/early winter which intemal organ is most likely to be encased in fat?
a. Kidneys
136. Someone offers you a rifle with the bolt closed. What should you do?
a. Refuse to accept the rifle until he/she proves that it is unloaded
137. A yeld Red hind is one which has?
a. No calf being suckled that year
138. What is the advantage in using a highseat?
a. All of the answers listed
b. The deer may not smell the stalker
c. The shot is likely to be safer than one taken from ground level
d. The deer may not see the stalker
139. When crawling towards deer with a companion what best describes the recommended condition for the rifles?
a. Only the leader's rifle should be loaded and pointed forwards
140. A mature Sika stag typically:
a. Lives in a stag herd except during the rut
141. In what month do the majority of Fallow bucks usually start to shed their velvet?
a. August
142. The male of which of the following species "roars" during the rut?
a. Red deer
143. Male Fallow have usually left their mother's social group by the age of?
a. 2 years
144. A Sika/Red hybrid often shows traits of both species. Which characteristic if found on an adult Red deer might suggest it is a SikajRed hybrid?
a. Prominent metatarsal gland
145. The male of which deer species usually holds a rutting "stand"?
a. Red deer
146. After a shot, the deer falls down and gets up almost immediately or staggers before rushing away - only a few drops of blood, some short hair and a long splinter of bone is found. Where has it been hit?
a. The leg
147. How is Sika deer feeding behaviour best described?
a. A mixture of browsing and grazing
148. Define what zeroing a rifle and telescopic sight involves?
a. Adjusting your group to coincide with your point of aim at a chosen range
149. The effect of rising numbers of deer in an area is likely to be first noticed through:
a. Reduced diversity of plants at ground level and increased crop damage
150. What is the advantage of a telescopic sight?
a. You can shoot more accurately at all ranges
151. What is the primary natural limiting factor of a healthy deer's life span?
a. It's teeth wearing out so that it cannot feed efficiently
152. The female deer of which species is correctly called a doe as opposed to a hind or cow?
a. Fallow deer
153. A wounded deer is struggling hard but seems unable to run away and could possibly be approached Should it be:
a. Shot again
154. How would you best describe the rump patch of Red deer in winter coat?
a. It is yellowish and runs up onto the back above the tail
155. If it is not possible to bleed and gralloch a deer immediately, what is the maximum time a carcass should be left in hot weather to avoid unacceptable deterioration
a. 30min
156. During the Red deer rut, the most hinds are likely to be held by:
a. The heaviest stags with the best body condition
157. Continental or metric rifle calibre's are often described with two numbers e.g. 6.5 x 57; 7 x 57;7 x 64; - the second figure refers to?
a. The case length in millimetres
158. What is the colour of a Japanese Sika deer's summer coat?
a. Chestnut with white spots and pale belly
159. A safe backstop is required before you take a shot at a deer. What is the best form of backstop?
a. A rising bank of soft ground
160. How do Sika stags mark out territories in the rut?
a. With both wallows and scrapes in which they often urinate and by fraying trees
161. Deer under normal undisturbed conditions will:
a. Feed in cycles of a few hours with peaks at dawn/dusk
162. The top points along the palm of a Fallow buck's antlers are called?
a. Spellers
163. What is the preferred habitat of most species of deer in the Ireland?
a. Woodland margins
164. Carrying a rifle with the firing pin resting on a chambered round is
a. Always dangerous and is an unacceptable practice
165. The adult coat of which of the following species usually displays many white spots in the summer?
a. Fallow deer
166. Which of the following descriptions does NOT apply to deer droppings?
a. Fibrous
167. Obturation is necessary to form an effective seal between the cartridge case and the chamber of your rifle. How might an ineffective seal be indicated
a. Black streaks from the neck down the outside of the
168. The antler casting cycle is mainly governed by which hormone?
a. Testosterone
169. Under what circumstances do female deer usually give birth to their young?
a. Quietly and alone in cover
170. When stalking alone on leased ground, which of the following is most useful to carry:
a. Permission to stalk signed by the landowner/holder of the stalking
171. A pronounced hanging "tassel" and "Adam's apple" are associated with the males of which of the following deer species?
a. Fallow deer
172. A buck whose antlers in season are a spongy mass of velvet (a perruque head) should:
a. Be culled as it may become infected and he will probably die
173. Which colour configuration do Japanese Sika hinds appear to have in winter coat?
a. A drab sooty grey colour all over with paler underbelly
174. After the shot, a deer hunches its back and walks slowly into cover. This is a typical reaction from an animal which has been hit in:
a. The gut
175. Which deer gives a repeated rising and falling whistle in the rut?
a. Sika
176. Bovine Tuberculosis is a notifiable disease - the most common symptoms are:
a. Infected lymph glands at the back of throat, in the gralloch and/or the pluck
177. Which of the following factors are most important for safety in the choice of a stalker's knife
a. Non-slip handle
178. When are most Red deer calves born?
a. Late May to June
179. If your rifle is shooting 3 inches left when you sight it in at 25 yards, at 100 yards where will it shoot?
a. 12 inches left
180. By what age do Fallow deer generally attain a full set of erupted permanent teeth?
a. 24-30 months
181. With which other species will Fallow deer hybridise
a. None of those listed
182. At what distance can Red deer detect human wind-bome scent?
a. Over a mile under certain conditions
183. If you smoke a cigarette while out stalking
a. The smoke will have no affect on the stalk and it can show you wind direction
184. How many points on their antlers do mature Japanese Sika stags normally have?
a. 8 point heads
185. In the daytime during July/August up land Red stags are usually found
a. In stag herds on the high ground
186. What are normally the last deer to change from winter coat into summer coat?
a. Old deer
187. If you suspect that you have wounded a deer and it has disappeared from sight, what should you do?
a. Wait for 10-15 minutes before going forward to the place where it was standing when shot
188. A Fallow buck is killed in autumn. The end of the penis sheath is black/brown and looks like dry cracked earth. What is this a sign of?
a. Normal rutting condition
189. A carcass is found to have many white grubs under the skin along its back. What are these likely to be?
a. Warble fly larvae
190. What is the general movement pattern of open hill Red deer?
a. They move to lower ground during the hours of darkness
191. Why do deer ruminate?
a. It is essential to their digestion
192. How are deer wallows best described?
a. Muddy and often scented with urine
193. The nasal bot fly parasite:
a. Causes the deer persistent irritation and discomfort
194. Which male deer sometimes shed "milky tears" during the rut
a. Sika
195. Wallowing by Red deer:
a. Is done by both stags and hinds
196. The metatarsal gland on the outer side of the hock of a mature Japanese Sika deer is:
a. Conspicuous, 2 inch long and white or pale grey in colour
197. The complete permanent dentition of a Fallow deer consists of how many teeth?
a. 32
198. On which coat do wild Sika deer have readily visible white spots?
a. Summer coats only
199. When feeding on the open hill Red deer:
a. Keep their heads into the wind
200. What is the definition of the term "headspace?
a. The distance between the closed bolt face and a datum point on the chambered cartridge case
201. A deer which has a pronounced "U" or "V" shaped pale line across its brows and frowns when it looks at you is likely to be what?
a. A Sika"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »Speaking of boycotts. If no range allowed them the use of their facilities they'd be in a fix ............... just a thought
Yeah but principles fly out the window when a few bob is mentioned/offered, this is Ireland after all. Corrupt from top to bottom.0 -
cookimonster wrote: »I have already posted this in a previous thread dealing with deer licences.....it does not specify HCAP but does talk about requirement of evidence of comptency....tell me I'm wrong and I'll go back to my pots and pans.
Can someone link to the legislation that says "or equivalent". Thanks.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo
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As a guy who used to shoot deer but haven't for some time. I have to take exception to item 6 on the reply of the deer groups. That being that there can be no reason that everyone didn't know that this was happening as extensive consultation and notifications were given through the relevant bodies.
As a person who never shot on coillte lands and was not associated with any deer groups, how was i to be notified. HCAP was only ever mentioned in relation to coillte and of no concern to me on private lands.
Whats happening here is the same as what seems to be happening in target shooting. A body trying to regulate and control shooting out of existence.
And for those that think sure its only the deer thats being regulated think again, these people start with one element and gradually infest every aspect till its rotten.
Look at the construction industry. There was a time you qualified and went to work being deemed competent to do so. But now before you can get in the van you have to have safe pass (the greatest money scam yet of which no one fails), working at heights, rgii registration, safe electric QC, manual handling, abrasive discs, mewp ticket etc. Basically the guts of ten different cards, tickets and courses all of which have to be renewed on a regular bases.
So don't for one second think that this won't spread like a disease. And don't be surprised if in 5 years time you find yourself sitting in a classroom of a hazardous materials handling course to learn how to safely handle the lead in your bullet. Oh ya and of course the waste permit you will need to dispose of the spent shell.
No discipline of shooting is safe there is no distinction made between the person who punches holes in paper and the rough shooter.
So if everyone could cop on and realise that the sport as a whole is being threatened and work together things would be a lot better for everyone.
You as a person who shoots is what the authorities are after as long as you use a stick that goes bang for sport you are fair game and out to be got. It does not matter and no discipline is immune.
Rant over.0 -
Soem thoughts on the points raised, but the first one is notice at the very start how they say "misinformation" and "confusion". The same wording the so called coalition used when it was found out they put forward a proposal (with these groups) to ban night time hunting. IOW we're all to stupid or ignorant to understand.
Point 1 - "Non profit". Where does the money go then? If its for Coilte then why is it necessary for shooting outside of Coilte lands?
Point 2 - "Stakeholders". So it' made up of lads that came together to form an association. As i said earlier that does not qualify them as experts and there is no mention of accredited certificates/qualifications to show they're are competent other than "time served" in the sport.
Point 3 - They say they have been pushing for hcap style training for decades. No wonder when you get €150 per head. As for the amount of people that have completed it. I don't doubt some have done it just to have it, but the number they quote (2,600) does not account for those that done the hcap but no longer shoot or no longer shoot coilte lands.
Point 4 - Basically the FCP for deer stalkers/hunting.
Point 5 - A lot to cover here. These "stakeholders" decided to propose a mandatory hcap for everyone that wanted a DHL. They talk about marksmanship and safe storage handling of firearms. Marksmanship is proficiency, not competency. We discussed this at length and how making proficiency a prerequisite for a firearms license is a dangerous precedence and something that cannot be judged on a single act. It is also something that can increase or decrease over time. So it'll be a constant process of evaluation. Safe handling and storage of a firearm is done when you apply for a firearm and has nothing to do with hcap or the "stakeholders" that run it. It's a matter for An Gardaí and cannot be given to private groups. Lastly the proposal for a mandatory hcap was accepted by the Minister. Well then where is the legislation, amendment to the existing act or SI?
Point 6 - Where were the proposals, decisions, recommendations and acceptance published? Was every effort made to let people know this was happening and being implemented?
Point 7 - In short we're going to make approx €600,000 over the next five years. For a non profit that is good money. So again where does it go?
Point 8 - Now we're getting there. So a single hcap test of say 100 lads brings in €15,000. Each Deer alliance person gets a fee for their day. The range gets a fee for the test, and the location of the MCQ gets a fee. The rest goes to administration of the website, internet service provider costs, and "indirect costs". So break it down. Range costs about €1,500 (100 x €15 per head). Each deer alliance man getting say €300 for their day is 5 x €300 so another €1,500. The hotel/location for the MCQ is most likely about €300 (i've hired function rooms and they are about this). Website domain names, and admin hosting costs are something i'm not sure on but can we agree on €50 per month. Allowing for a couple of tests er year it's hard to figure the cost per test but we'll half the yearly cost and say €300 for 6 months. So we're up to €3,600. Soem things do't make sense. ISP (internet srvice provider). This is the monthly internet fee. Usually between €15 to €50 per month. I'd assume it's done by the website management crowd so would be part of the fee above? Also travel costs. If each man is paid for his day does that not include travel costs too? Say they are separate costs. Allow another €600 for both. That makes €4,200. The hcap manual costs €35 so that more than covers printing fees so that doesn't count. So rounding up for any unknown or shortfall i expenses and we can call it €5,000 in expenses per test. So they take in €15,000 and spend €5,000. Where is the other €10,000 gone?
Point 9 - Brilliant. We're accredited, but actually we're not because, as i said before, NO group, association, person, etc. has official recognition from any state body. Yes Coilte accept the hcap, but they called for it, and acceptance is not the same as being officially recognized.
Point 10 - This one is a pot shot at anyone thinking of setting up. In shrot what they are saying is because we've been doing it for 12 years why would the NPWS allow anyone else to come along and provide a course that could challenge our monopoly. Fecking priceless. Well it'll happen. You find either fly by nights or proper set ups. In fact i'd love to see a few other gorups or ranges starting this. See how much they support mandatory hcap when others are dipping into the cash flow, because according this point the only reason someone would dare to set up an alternative is for monetary reasons. Well as with point 8, where does the money they get go?
Point 11 - This will make us all better is what they are saying here and anyone who opposes it (probably us they;re speaking about) is wrong. Well the MCQ is a joke according to those i've spoken to about and it and the range test is just as bad. Failing multiple times only to be allowed to repeat it until you pass is not a test. So jog on with that.
Point 12 - Won't someone think of the children, basically. IOW only genuine stalkers will support this and if you don't then you're not a stalker. Bullsh*t. We are not opposed to education, we are opposed to a consortium of private groups making a sh*t ton of money out of a proposal they set forward. Deer are free in this country. No one owns them. Yet they seek to privatize the sport under the guise of education.
Point 13 - As cookimonster mentioned above this was the fear, that it'd be introduced as a condition. Right so, as with the competence, the act does not specify hcap. It says "or equivalent". So if i put forward 10, 15, 25, 30 years of shooting experience does that not show the necessary experience? If so how do they test me to see i have it. Like with the competence courses the cert from a course is only one of four ways to prove competence so surely there must be other ways than the hcap to prove competence?
These proposals were, to the best of my knowledge, not well known about if at all. Opposition when they were proposed would have given us two years to counter them. Instead we get this at the last minute. While some will say they are opposed you'll be surprised at the amount of people that will do the course rather than not go for the license.
When it turns to other forms of hunting i wonder if they'll be as magnanimous.
With regards point 10, if I owned a range I would be right now looking to get a hcap equivelant and offer a bulk deal for training on range, and doing the test etc. A perfect opportunity for them.0 -
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Also with the sums of money involved with these state bodies. Was there a public tender process posted on e tenders.
I think not, so a state body has just handed this contract to a private organisation. If this had been publicly advertised which it should have been there would have interest from uk and other european countries who already have established courses.
All smells a bit dodgy to me but then again if there is money to be made sure someone will know someone who could run that course.0
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