cavan shooter wrote: » A couple of months ago the sports coalition of vested interests were muting a "safe pass" for shooters and we went ballistic at the thought. They muted a proposed ban on fox shooting This course and it's proposal is a done deal and it's introduction is as a dodgy way of introducing the same course by the back door. This Hcap is the thin end of the wedge and the start of what the sports coalition of vested interests are trying to do dominate the shooting scene for there own good. It looks as if the deer stalker is being singled out for this and been hung out to dry. Where is the Deer Associations on this matter.?
dto001 wrote: » cavan shooter wrote: » A couple of months ago the sports coalition of vested interests were muting a "safe pass" for shooters and we went ballistic at the thought. They muted a proposed ban on fox shooting This course and it's proposal is a done deal and it's introduction is as a dodgy way of introducing the same course by the back door. This Hcap is the thin end of the wedge and the start of what the sports coalition of vested interests are trying to do dominate the shooting scene for there own good. It looks as if the deer stalker is being singled out for this and been hung out to dry. Where is the Deer Associations on this matter.? They are the ones that are pushing this as far as I can see. I have seen on Facebook that and I come to the conclusion through their posts that the country side alliance Ireland is in favor of this and that no money will be made from it 🀥🀥🀥 also from this same post that the Irish deer management forum have recommended this who ever they are. I’m not sure this is going to get the attention it deserves as a lot of people seem to be in favor of it and there is not as much of an out cry as there was with the ban on night shooting (up to now anyway). I think this is the beginning of the end for the way shooting is now so enjoy it while you have it lads because soon we’ll be paying €1000 up to shoot a couple of pheasants and wearing plus fours and watching lads coining it in!!
Sika98k wrote: » What is that that juice1304 says about the range test ? People taking 3(three) attempts at the test ? Surely not on the same day. The manual does state that only 2(two) attempts are allowed on the one day. Is this course being run properly ? if what juice1304 says is correct it does not seem to be maintaining a high standard,if any.
cavan shooter wrote: » This course and it's proposal is a done deal and it's introduction is as a dodgy way of introducing the same course by the back door.
This Hcap is the thin end of the wedge and the start of what the sports coalition of vested interests are trying to do dominate the shooting scene for there own good. It looks as if the deer stalker is being singled out for this and been hung out to dry. Where is the Deer Associations on this matter.?
gunny123 wrote: » ........... but we are told it doesn't matter as this is ireland. Sickens my guts this country sometimes.
dto001 wrote: » I’m not sure this is going to get the attention it deserves as a lot of people seem to be in favor of it and there is not as much of an out cry as there was with the ban on night shooting (up to now anyway).
Grizzly 45 wrote: » Minister for arts, culture, Gaeltacht,[nature&stuff:P]-heather.humphreys@oir.ie Constituency Offices Unit 2, Mall Road, Co.Monaghan, Ireland. Eircode: H18 X282 Tel: 047-71911 || Fax: 047-71912 E-mail: heather.humphreys@oir.ie 79 Market Street, Cootehill, Co. Cavan, Ireland. Eircode: H16 E681 Tel: (049) 555 5501 NPWS liscensing Email: wildlifelicence@ahg.gov.ie Tel: (01) 888 3298 or (01) 888 3275 or (01) 888 3249 Deer Alliance, P.O. Box 1, Borris, Co. Carlow. Phone Number 086 1927 845 Email Address deeralliance@gmail.com Email Address www.deeralliance.ie Just noticed something about the deer alliance...NO DATA PROTECTION NOTICE OR STATEMENT ON PRIVACY on their website.Handling personal information, and what they do with it naughty, naughty.They don't seem to come up as a regd entity with the Data protection office website either? WDAI :+353 (0)87 2496987 Email: wilddeerireland@gmail.com Facebook and Twitter accounts as well.
Cass wrote: » Some ask why the opposition. Well here ya go. My reasons for opposing it.The NPWS and Deer Alliance have no authority to introduce any mandatory courses. There is no legislation in place to support this. An SI (someone floated the idea) cannot supersede primary legislation, of which none exists (for this exact topic). The HCAP was introduced for shooters on Coilte land. It is a CYA exercise. The HCAP was written by deer stalkers so what are their qualifications? I don't mean 30, 40, 50 years shooting, i mean registered, verifiable, qualifications. Coilte demand this cert, but what official recognition does it have (An Gardaí, DoJ, DoE, DoA.R.H.GA., etc) Where does the money go? Even now, presently, who gets it and how is it spent? Introducing proficiency as a prerequisite for a license is a dangerous precedence. How do you measure proficiency, what national standards are there, and who determines it's met (leads back to the qualifications of those deeming how proficient a person is). It will not combat poaching. Poaching is a criminal act, and those that do it are already breaking the law. How will further legislation stop those already intent on breaking the current laws? More legislation is not needed, only enforcement of the current legislation which comes under the guise of more rangers and stronger punishment for those caught. **This one is less factual and more emotive** I'ts my gun, licensed by An Gardaí who deem me competent, and private permissions given to me by land owners so the deer alliance have no say in what i do.
RossiFan08 wrote: » The Deer Alliance have posted a reply on their website, it is very long winded so not 100% through it myself but wanted to share with others.http://deeralliance.ie/blog/
meathstevie wrote: » One thing in there struck me as a bit odd, it is claimed that HCAP is accredited by An Garda Siochana. I sincerely doubt that. Accepted as proof of competency to handle a rifle probably yes, just like for example the NARGC safety course is accepted and just like range membership is accepted for good reason for possession of a .22lr pistol. Accredited as being recommended by the Acting Commissioner, I doubt it.
Cass wrote: » To me this is two attempts. If this is the case then yes, people have shot more than twice. In the last few years of seeing the hcap i've yet to see anyone walk away without their pass/cert. .
Grizzly 45 wrote: » BE POLITE and Also,we can suggest a boycott of both the NPWS and HCAP,as thy are pushing legislation that is illegal here too and get some media attention on this as well.
QUOTE=cookimonster;105163052] The already ammended Act allows the minister to do as he sees fit in circumstances such as this.
wexfordman2 wrote: » Ang again, how can you do a hcap without a gun licence, and therefore how do AGS accept it as a competency, as you would need to do the hcap first to get the competency ?
meathstevie wrote: » You don't need a licence to fire a "club" gun at a range. If that was the case commercial ranges would not be able to operate all sorts of guest packages but that's a bit of an irrelevant detail in the context of this discussion.
Walter Mittys Brother wrote: » Speaking of boycotts. If no range allowed them the use of their facilities they'd be in a fix ............... just a thought
cookimonster wrote: » I have already posted this in a previous thread dealing with deer licences.....it does not specify HCAP but does talk about requirement of evidence of comptency....tell me I'm wrong and I'll go back to my pots and pans.
Cass wrote: » Soem thoughts on the points raised, but the first one is notice at the very start how they say "misinformation" and "confusion". The same wording the so called coalition used when it was found out they put forward a proposal (with these groups) to ban night time hunting. IOW we're all to stupid or ignorant to understand.Point 1 - "Non profit". Where does the money go then? If its for Coilte then why is it necessary for shooting outside of Coilte lands?Point 2 - "Stakeholders". So it' made up of lads that came together to form an association. As i said earlier that does not qualify them as experts and there is no mention of accredited certificates/qualifications to show they're are competent other than "time served" in the sport.Point 3 - They say they have been pushing for hcap style training for decades. No wonder when you get €150 per head. As for the amount of people that have completed it. I don't doubt some have done it just to have it, but the number they quote (2,600) does not account for those that done the hcap but no longer shoot or no longer shoot coilte lands.Point 4 - Basically the FCP for deer stalkers/hunting.Point 5 - A lot to cover here. These "stakeholders" decided to propose a mandatory hcap for everyone that wanted a DHL. They talk about marksmanship and safe storage handling of firearms. Marksmanship is proficiency, not competency. We discussed this at length and how making proficiency a prerequisite for a firearms license is a dangerous precedence and something that cannot be judged on a single act. It is also something that can increase or decrease over time. So it'll be a constant process of evaluation. Safe handling and storage of a firearm is done when you apply for a firearm and has nothing to do with hcap or the "stakeholders" that run it. It's a matter for An Gardaí and cannot be given to private groups. Lastly the proposal for a mandatory hcap was accepted by the Minister. Well then where is the legislation, amendment to the existing act or SI?Point 6 - Where were the proposals, decisions, recommendations and acceptance published? Was every effort made to let people know this was happening and being implemented?Point 7 - In short we're going to make approx €600,000 over the next five years. For a non profit that is good money. So again where does it go?Point 8 - Now we're getting there. So a single hcap test of say 100 lads brings in €15,000. Each Deer alliance person gets a fee for their day. The range gets a fee for the test, and the location of the MCQ gets a fee. The rest goes to administration of the website, internet service provider costs, and "indirect costs". So break it down. Range costs about €1,500 (100 x €15 per head). Each deer alliance man getting say €300 for their day is 5 x €300 so another €1,500. The hotel/location for the MCQ is most likely about €300 (i've hired function rooms and they are about this). Website domain names, and admin hosting costs are something i'm not sure on but can we agree on €50 per month. Allowing for a couple of tests er year it's hard to figure the cost per test but we'll half the yearly cost and say €300 for 6 months. So we're up to €3,600. Soem things do't make sense. ISP (internet srvice provider). This is the monthly internet fee. Usually between €15 to €50 per month. I'd assume it's done by the website management crowd so would be part of the fee above? Also travel costs. If each man is paid for his day does that not include travel costs too? Say they are separate costs. Allow another €600 for both. That makes €4,200. The hcap manual costs €35 so that more than covers printing fees so that doesn't count. So rounding up for any unknown or shortfall i expenses and we can call it €5,000 in expenses per test. So they take in €15,000 and spend €5,000. Where is the other €10,000 gone?Point 9 - Brilliant. We're accredited, but actually we're not because, as i said before, NO group, association, person, etc. has official recognition from any state body. Yes Coilte accept the hcap, but they called for it, and acceptance is not the same as being officially recognized.Point 10 - This one is a pot shot at anyone thinking of setting up. In shrot what they are saying is because we've been doing it for 12 years why would the NPWS allow anyone else to come along and provide a course that could challenge our monopoly. Fecking priceless. Well it'll happen. You find either fly by nights or proper set ups. In fact i'd love to see a few other gorups or ranges starting this. See how much they support mandatory hcap when others are dipping into the cash flow, because according this point the only reason someone would dare to set up an alternative is for monetary reasons. Well as with point 8, where does the money they get go?Point 11 - This will make us all better is what they are saying here and anyone who opposes it (probably us they;re speaking about) is wrong. Well the MCQ is a joke according to those i've spoken to about and it and the range test is just as bad. Failing multiple times only to be allowed to repeat it until you pass is not a test. So jog on with that.Point 12 - Won't someone think of the children, basically. IOW only genuine stalkers will support this and if you don't then you're not a stalker. Bullsh*t. We are not opposed to education, we are opposed to a consortium of private groups making a sh*t ton of money out of a proposal they set forward. Deer are free in this country. No one owns them. Yet they seek to privatize the sport under the guise of education.Point 13 - As cookimonster mentioned above this was the fear, that it'd be introduced as a condition. Right so, as with the competence, the act does not specify hcap. It says "or equivalent". So if i put forward 10, 15, 25, 30 years of shooting experience does that not show the necessary experience? If so how do they test me to see i have it. Like with the competence courses the cert from a course is only one of four ways to prove competence so surely there must be other ways than the hcap to prove competence? These proposals were, to the best of my knowledge, not well known about if at all. Opposition when they were proposed would have given us two years to counter them. Instead we get this at the last minute. While some will say they are opposed you'll be surprised at the amount of people that will do the course rather than not go for the license. When it turns to other forms of hunting i wonder if they'll be as magnanimous.
