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Compulsory HCAP - Cancelled

Grizzly 45

Picked this up on an FB page from a local group of Munster deer hunters.So treat this as TOTALLY UNCONFIRMED..

As we know the newbies applying for a deer license for Jan 2018 season, will be required to do the HCAP or similar to be considered for a deer hunting license, and the rest of us will apparently have to do the HCAP within a fixed date within the next five years or so.This will be decided apparently by some sort of lottery system applied by NPWS. Don't do the HCAP within a certain timeframe, no deer hunting license for you lad/lady!

Considering this is coming from a state body that has been caught out on makey up law on things like; No Semi-autos are legal for deer hunting, You need 100 acres plus for a license, and .223 is perfectly legal for deer hunting here... You gotta ask is this legit or even plausible.The lad who posted this "claims" to have written an email to the dept and was informed that it's the ministers intent and will to follow this thru on a recommendation of the deer interest groups.:(: mad:

So , has anyone had this blip on their radar ?Or anything of the like? Can we get confirmation or denial of hostile intent?Going by my experience this year, I'd say the hostile intent is very possible, if not plausible.And if so, can we mount a campagin against this before January?

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Cass

RossiFan08 wrote: »

The Deer Alliance have posted a reply on their website, it is very long winded so not 100% through it myself but wanted to share with others.

http://deeralliance.ie/blog/

Soem thoughts on the points raised, but the first one is notice at the very start how they say "misinformation" and "confusion". The same wording the so called coalition used when it was found out they put forward a proposal (with these groups) to ban night time hunting. IOW we're all to stupid or ignorant to understand.

Point 1 - "Non profit". Where does the money go then? If its for Coilte then why is it necessary for shooting outside of Coilte lands?
Point 2 - "Stakeholders". So it' made up of lads that came together to form an association. As i said earlier that does not qualify them as experts and there is no mention of accredited certificates/qualifications to show they're are competent other than "time served" in the sport.
Point 3 - They say they have been pushing for hcap style training for decades. No wonder when you get €150 per head. As for the amount of people that have completed it. I don't doubt some have done it just to have it, but the number they quote (2,600) does not account for those that done the hcap but no longer shoot or no longer shoot coilte lands.
Point 4 - Basically the FCP for deer stalkers/hunting.
Point 5 - A lot to cover here. These "stakeholders" decided to propose a mandatory hcap for everyone that wanted a DHL. They talk about marksmanship and safe storage handling of firearms. Marksmanship is proficiency, not competency. We discussed this at length and how making proficiency a prerequisite for a firearms license is a dangerous precedence and something that cannot be judged on a single act. It is also something that can increase or decrease over time. So it'll be a constant process of evaluation. Safe handling and storage of a firearm is done when you apply for a firearm and has nothing to do with hcap or the "stakeholders" that run it. It's a matter for An Gardaí and cannot be given to private groups. Lastly the proposal for a mandatory hcap was accepted by the Minister. Well then where is the legislation, amendment to the existing act or SI?
Point 6 - Where were the proposals, decisions, recommendations and acceptance published? Was every effort made to let people know this was happening and being implemented?
Point 7 - In short we're going to make approx €600,000 over the next five years. For a non profit that is good money. So again where does it go?
Point 8 - Now we're getting there. So a single hcap test of say 100 lads brings in €15,000. Each Deer alliance person gets a fee for their day. The range gets a fee for the test, and the location of the MCQ gets a fee. The rest goes to administration of the website, internet service provider costs, and "indirect costs". So break it down. Range costs about €1,500 (100 x €15 per head). Each deer alliance man getting say €300 for their day is 5 x €300 so another €1,500. The hotel/location for the MCQ is most likely about €300 (i've hired function rooms and they are about this). Website domain names, and admin hosting costs are something i'm not sure on but can we agree on €50 per month. Allowing for a couple of tests er year it's hard to figure the cost per test but we'll half the yearly cost and say €300 for 6 months. So we're up to €3,600. Soem things do't make sense. ISP (internet srvice provider). This is the monthly internet fee. Usually between €15 to €50 per month. I'd assume it's done by the website management crowd so would be part of the fee above? Also travel costs. If each man is paid for his day does that not include travel costs too? Say they are separate costs. Allow another €600 for both. That makes €4,200. The hcap manual costs €35 so that more than covers printing fees so that doesn't count. So rounding up for any unknown or shortfall i expenses and we can call it €5,000 in expenses per test. So they take in €15,000 and spend €5,000. Where is the other €10,000 gone?
Point 9 - Brilliant. We're accredited, but actually we're not because, as i said before, NO group, association, person, etc. has official recognition from any state body. Yes Coilte accept the hcap, but they called for it, and acceptance is not the same as being officially recognized.
Point 10 - This one is a pot shot at anyone thinking of setting up. In shrot what they are saying is because we've been doing it for 12 years why would the NPWS allow anyone else to come along and provide a course that could challenge our monopoly. Fecking priceless. Well it'll happen. You find either fly by nights or proper set ups. In fact i'd love to see a few other gorups or ranges starting this. See how much they support mandatory hcap when others are dipping into the cash flow, because according this point the only reason someone would dare to set up an alternative is for monetary reasons. Well as with point 8, where does the money they get go?
Point 11 - This will make us all better is what they are saying here and anyone who opposes it (probably us they;re speaking about) is wrong. Well the MCQ is a joke according to those i've spoken to about and it and the range test is just as bad. Failing multiple times only to be allowed to repeat it until you pass is not a test. So jog on with that.
Point 12 - Won't someone think of the children, basically. IOW only genuine stalkers will support this and if you don't then you're not a stalker. Bullsh*t. We are not opposed to education, we are opposed to a consortium of private groups making a sh*t ton of money out of a proposal they set forward. Deer are free in this country. No one owns them. Yet they seek to privatize the sport under the guise of education.
Point 13 - As cookimonster mentioned above this was the fear, that it'd be introduced as a condition. Right so, as with the competence, the act does not specify hcap. It says "or equivalent". So if i put forward 10, 15, 25, 30 years of shooting experience does that not show the necessary experience? If so how do they test me to see i have it. Like with the competence courses the cert from a course is only one of four ways to prove competence so surely there must be other ways than the hcap to prove competence?

These proposals were, to the best of my knowledge, not well known about if at all. Opposition when they were proposed would have given us two years to counter them. Instead we get this at the last minute. While some will say they are opposed you'll be surprised at the amount of people that will do the course rather than not go for the license.

When it turns to other forms of hunting i wonder if they'll be as magnanimous.

meathstevie

I must have met a Garda who was years ahead of the rest when I applied for my first shotgun licence. Went into the station, told him I was looking for a shotgun licence for hunting. He actually asked me a few relevant question like what I was going to hunt, can you hunt hen pheasants, would you be able to shoot deer with that etc etc.... .After about 10 to 15 minutes and a bit of rattling away on the computer he accepted my paperwork and a week or two later I had my licence.

wexfordman2

meathstevie wrote: »

You don't need a licence to fire a "club" gun at a range. If that was the case commercial ranges would not be able to operate all sorts of guest packages but that's a bit of an irrelevant detail in the context of this discussion.

Fair point, but you now have a situation where in order to do or pass the hcap, you prob need to join a range.

meathstevie

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Ang again, how can you do a hcap without a gun licence, and therefore how do AGS accept it as a competency, as you would need to do the hcap first to get the competency ?

You don't need a licence to fire a "club" gun at a range. If that was the case commercial ranges would not be able to operate all sorts of guest packages but that's a bit of an irrelevant detail in the context of this discussion.

cookimonster

28.—(1) A person shall not with firearms hunt or kill on any land an exempted wild
mammal or a protected wild bird of a species specified in an order under section 24 of this Act which is for the time being in force unless—
(a) the exempted wild mammal or the protected wild bird is hunted or killed pursuant to and in accordance with a licence granted under this Act, or deemed to have been granted under section 29 of this Act, and
(b) the person is in relation to the land a qualified person for the purposes of this
section.
(2) A person shall in relation to land be qualified for the purposes of this section if
he is at least sixteen years of age and—
(a) is entitled to sporting rights over the land, or
(b) is the guest, invitee, servant or agent, or possesses the written authority of a
person who is entitled to sporting rights over the land, or
(c) is a member of a body of persons which is entitled to sporting rights over the
land or which has such authority, or
(d) is a person who is of a class or description which the Minister by regulations
declares to be a qualified class or description for the purposes of this section.
[(2A) (a) An applicant for—
(i) the grant of a licence under section 29 of this Act, or
(ii) the grant or renewal of a certificate to which section 29(5) of this Act relates, may, before the granting of any such licence or the granting or renewal of any such certificate, be required to supply satisfactory evidence that the applicant is a competent person to hold such a licence.
(b) The evidence required under paragraph (a) of this subsection shall include
the ability to identify certain species of fauna and to have a satisfactory knowledge of the relevant provisions of the Wildlife Acts, 1976 and 2000, and of any instruments made under those Acts.
(c) The Minister may make regulations for the purpose of giving effect to this
subsection.]

This is the document the above text is taken from, if you open it or download you will see the section that seem to have been updated highlighted in a different colour text...

Number 39 of 1976 WILDLIFE ACT 1976 REVISED Updated to 1 January 2017 This ... - Revised Acts - Law Reform Commission

I have already posted this in a previous thread dealing with deer licences.....it does not specify HCAP but does talk about requirement of evidence of comptency....tell me I'm wrong and I'll go back to my pots and pans.

Grizzly 45

[

QUOTE=cookimonster;105163052]
The already ammended Act allows the minister to do as he sees fit in circumstances such as this.

Could you please show us Cookie where it has been amended to include HCAP as a mandatory pre-qualification?

cookimonster

For what it's worth, I think people here need to forget 'it's illegal, it will need Dail approval etc' argumemnt, that boat never left the ship yard let alone sailed.
The already ammended Act allows the minister to do as he sees fit in circumstances such as this.
Your grievance needs to aimmed at those who will feel uncomfortable with the negative attention and lack of support. This action has been clearly outlined here within the the thread.

I'm only throwing my tupence worth in because it obvious that some are pinning their hopes on a lost argument which could be redirected more effectively else where.

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

BE POLITE and Also,we can suggest a boycott of both the NPWS and HCAP,as thy are pushing legislation that is illegal here too and get some media attention on this as well.

Maybe boycotting is playing into the hands of those that want to make deer stalking an "exclusive" sport, commercializing it and making it a sport for the well off. They would be happy to see the back of most of us.

Kat1170

Sika98k wrote: »

What is that that juice1304 says about the range test ? People taking 3(three) attempts at the test ? Surely not on the same day. The manual does state that only 2(two) attempts are allowed on the one day.
Is this course being run properly ? if what juice1304 says is correct it does not seem to be maintaining a high standard,if any.

On the day I was there, two lads from the first detail were still trying to pass on the sixth or seventh firing detail when I left. I wouldn't be surprised if they are still there trying :mad::rolleyes::mad:

Cass wrote: »

To me this is two attempts. If this is the case then yes, people have shot more than twice. In the last few years of seeing the hcap i've yet to see anyone walk away without their pass/cert.

.

From what I have seen, this does not surprise me in the least. :mad:

wexfordman2

meathstevie wrote: »

One thing in there struck me as a bit odd, it is claimed that HCAP is accredited by An Garda Siochana. I sincerely doubt that. Accepted as proof of competency to handle a rifle probably yes, just like for example the NARGC safety course is accepted and just like range membership is accepted for good reason for possession of a .22lr pistol. Accredited as being recommended by the Acting Commissioner, I doubt it.

Ang again, how can you do a hcap without a gun licence, and therefore how do AGS accept it as a competency, as you would need to do the hcap first to get the competency ?

meathstevie

RossiFan08 wrote: »

The Deer Alliance have posted a reply on their website, it is very long winded so not 100% through it myself but wanted to share with others.

http://deeralliance.ie/blog/

One thing in there struck me as a bit odd, it is claimed that HCAP is accredited by An Garda Siochana. I sincerely doubt that. Accepted as proof of competency to handle a rifle probably yes, just like for example the NARGC safety course is accepted and just like range membership is accepted for good reason for possession of a .22lr pistol. Accredited as being recommended by the Acting Commissioner, I doubt it.

RossiFan08

The Deer Alliance have posted a reply on their website, it is very long winded so not 100% through it myself but wanted to share with others.

http://deeralliance.ie/blog/

Grizzly 45

Now, next thing Blizzard the email accounts and phone message boxes of those accounts with the same messages.BE POLITE and TACTFUL and use Cass's 11 points you want to be explained LEAVE a return call number for yourself.... They will soon get the message that there is a whole bunch of people out there very pissed off.Get your missus and kids and relatives in on the act as well. It will get really boring after awhile for them. Also,we can suggest a boycott of both the NPWS and HCAP,as thy are pushing legislation that is illegal here too and get some media attention on this as well. And maybe people should be poking the NARGC as well on this issue?

BTW the suggestion of the SI sufficing came from ...Guess who? The NPWS themselves.. Seen an email sent to one lad on FB from a Gabriel Staunton in NPWS.

yubabill1

Cut-and-paste from Cass

Cass wrote: »

Some ask why the opposition. Well here ya go. My reasons for opposing it.
The NPWS and Deer Alliance have no authority to introduce any mandatory courses.

There is no legislation in place to support this.

An SI (someone floated the idea) cannot supersede primary legislation, of which none exists (for this exact topic).

The HCAP was introduced for shooters on Coilte land. It is a CYA exercise.

The HCAP was written by deer stalkers so what are their qualifications? I don't mean 30, 40, 50 years shooting, i mean registered, verifiable, qualifications.

Coilte demand this cert, but what official recognition does it have (An Gardaí, DoJ, DoE, DoA.R.H.GA., etc)

Where does the money go? Even now, presently, who gets it and how is it spent?

Introducing proficiency as a prerequisite for a license is a dangerous precedence. How do you measure proficiency, what national standards are there, and who determines it's met (leads back to the qualifications of those deeming how proficient a person is).

It will not combat poaching.

Poaching is a criminal act, and those that do it are already breaking the law. How will further legislation stop those already intent on breaking the current laws?

More legislation is not needed, only enforcement of the current legislation which comes under the guise of more rangers and stronger punishment for those caught.

**This one is less factual and more emotive** I'ts my gun, licensed by An Gardaí who deem me competent, and private permissions given to me by land owners so the deer alliance have no say in what i do.

EDIT; Copied and sent to minister, NPWS.

yubabill1

Emails copied from griz

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Minister for arts, culture, Gaeltacht,[nature&stuff:P]-heather.humphreys@oir.ie

Constituency Offices
Unit 2, Mall Road,
Co.Monaghan,
Ireland.
Eircode: H18 X282
Tel: 047-71911 || Fax: 047-71912
E-mail: heather.humphreys@oir.ie
79 Market Street,
Cootehill,
Co. Cavan,
Ireland.
Eircode: H16 E681
Tel: (049) 555 5501

NPWS liscensing
Email: wildlifelicence@ahg.gov.ie
Tel: (01) 888 3298 or (01) 888 3275 or (01) 888 3249

Deer Alliance,
P.O. Box 1,
Borris,
Co. Carlow.

Phone Number 086 1927 845
Email Address deeralliance@gmail.com
Email Address www.deeralliance.ie

Just noticed something about the deer alliance...NO DATA PROTECTION NOTICE OR STATEMENT ON PRIVACY on their website.Handling personal information, and what they do with it naughty, naughty.They don't seem to come up as a regd entity with the Data protection office website either?

WDAI
:+353 (0)87 2496987
Email: wilddeerireland@gmail.com Facebook and Twitter accounts as well.

wirehairmax

A certain Mr Liam Nolan has proudly announced this on the WDAI this evening. Lot of questions to be asked as to how this came about and who benefits from the introduction of this as a mandatory requirement to obtain a deer permit.

Cass

gunny123 wrote: »

........... but we are told it doesn't matter as this is ireland. Sickens my guts this country sometimes.

Don't want the thread to go off topic, but the more people know the better informed they are.

A lot of the things you mentioned were pissed away by the same groups handing over large parts of our sports now. Refusal of reloading for one. It's a can of worms, but most people i speak to were unaware that the majority (approx 6 of the 7 major NGBs) refused reloading. Not they were refused it, but they refused the offer of it. It was so unbelievable the DoJ extended the time frame for receipt of applications by either 3 or 6 months, but still only one group applied.

Couple that with the inter personnel and political rows among the various groups and we [ the grander shooting community] have pissed away parts of our sports. In other countries they fight as one unit, for the most part, to keep what they have but not here.

dto001 wrote: »

I’m not sure this is going to get the attention it deserves as a lot of people seem to be in favor of it and there is not as much of an out cry as there was with the ban on night shooting (up to now anyway).

It's only been one day.

We have time to challenge this and as above about the legislation and the given time frame to the enactment of this we can have it stopped and dismiss the stupid notion of it.

I've already gotten good feedback from some people and without breaking confidence i have seen replies asking for more information from some of those involved in making the decisions on this (not NPWS, deer alliance or sc).

So don't give up and get writing. It doesn't have to be a novel. Copy and paste my list if you have to. Its more about the amount of opposition. Hell if you only do this:

............... it'll suffice.

Cass

Sika98k wrote: »

What is that that juice1304 says about the range test ? People taking 3(three) attempts at the test ? Surely not on the same day. The manual does state that only 2(two) attempts are allowed on the one day.
Is this course being run properly ? if what juice1304 says is correct it does not seem to be maintaining a high standard,if any.

How many "full" attempts?

As it is you shoot at the "sighting" target. It's a 6 inch disc in the top right corner. If you fail this you can try once more. Fail it again and you go to the back of the list.

As for the deer part, if you pass the sighting part you move onto the deer target. Fail to get all six shots into the heart lung area and you fail. You can resit this part, but don't have to do the sighting part, only the deer part.

To me this is two attempts. If this is the case then yes, people have shot more than twice. In the last few years of seeing the hcap i've yet to see anyone walk away without their pass/cert.

cavan shooter wrote: »

This course and it's proposal is a done deal and it's introduction is as a dodgy way of introducing the same course by the back door.

I could be picking you up wrong, but if you mean the introduction of the mandatory hcap as being a done deal then i'd strongly disagree.

There are 8 weeks between the announcement and the so called introduction date. Given that the Dail will be in Christmas recess in about 5 weeks that means they must have legislation through in that timeframe.

To introduce a mandatory course with the same legal framework as the deer license, firearm license, security accommodation, etc, etc. there must be legislation making it a legal requirement. Otherwise it's just a "please do this" also known as a guideline.

Number 1 & 2 on my list of objections.

As i said in that list, and again i stand to be corrected as i'm not a solicitor or legal expert, even an SI would not solve this. The primary legislation [the relevant Wildlife and Firearm Acts] cannot be exceeded by secondary legislation [S.I.]. As such any such SI would change the Acts it would need to go through the Dail. Also the NPWS is not a legislative body. IOW unlike a County Council they cannot introduce secondary legislation at all. They [NPWS] are more like An Gardaí. Enforcement/administration only.

This Hcap is the thin end of the wedge and the start of what the sports coalition of vested interests are trying to do dominate the shooting scene for there own good. It looks as if the deer stalker is being singled out for this and been hung out to dry. Where is the Deer Associations on this matter.?

Yup.

Our own "representatives" helping a body that is so underfunded they are desperate to find any other way to combat poaching than addressing the real issues.

Also target shooting has been in the line of fire for years, was only a matter of time before hunting came into the crosshairs.

cavan shooter

dto001 wrote: »

cavan shooter wrote: »

A couple of months ago the sports coalition of vested interests were muting a "safe pass" for shooters and we went ballistic at the thought. They muted a proposed ban on fox shooting

This course and it's proposal is a done deal and it's introduction is as a dodgy way of introducing the same course by the back door.
This Hcap is the thin end of the wedge and the start of what the sports coalition of vested interests are trying to do dominate the shooting scene for there own good. It looks as if the deer stalker is being singled out for this and been hung out to dry. Where is the Deer Associations on this matter.?

They are the ones that are pushing this as far as I can see. I have seen on Facebook that and I come to the conclusion through their posts that the country side alliance Ireland is in favor of this and that no money will be made from it ðŸ€¥ðŸ€¥ðŸ€¥ also from this same post that the Irish deer management forum have recommended this who ever they are.
I’m not sure this is going to get the attention it deserves as a lot of people seem to be in favor of it and there is not as much of an out cry as there was with the ban on night shooting (up to now anyway). I think this is the beginning of the end for the way shooting is now so enjoy it while you have it lads because soon we’ll be paying €1000 up to shoot a couple of pheasants and wearing plus fours and watching lads coining it in!!

Now that's worrying.......but then again treachery is more complex than Judas and is 30 pieces of silver.

dto001

cavan shooter wrote: »

A couple of months ago the sports coalition of vested interests were muting a "safe pass" for shooters and we went ballistic at the thought. They muted a proposed ban on fox shooting

This course and it's proposal is a done deal and it's introduction is as a dodgy way of introducing the same course by the back door.
This Hcap is the thin end of the wedge and the start of what the sports coalition of vested interests are trying to do dominate the shooting scene for there own good. It looks as if the deer stalker is being singled out for this and been hung out to dry. Where is the Deer Associations on this matter.?

They are the ones that are pushing this as far as I can see. I have seen on Facebook that and I come to the conclusion through their posts that the country side alliance Ireland is in favor of this and that no money will be made from it ðŸ€¥ðŸ€¥ðŸ€¥ also from this same post that the Irish deer management forum have recommended this who ever they are.
I’m not sure this is going to get the attention it deserves as a lot of people seem to be in favor of it and there is not as much of an out cry as there was with the ban on night shooting (up to now anyway). I think this is the beginning of the end for the way shooting is now so enjoy it while you have it lads because soon we’ll be paying €1000 up to shoot a couple of pheasants and wearing plus fours and watching lads coining it in!!

gunny123

cavan shooter wrote: »

Also meant to say stop comparing Ireland to other Countries....we are not Germany or England or the States. Just because it's done outside the state doesn't automatically mean it's better...

Comparisons to other countries only happens when it suits. Bowhunting, hunting with pistols and target sports like ipsc, and the ability to reload at home happen in other countries, but we are told it doesn't matter as this is ireland. Sickens my guts this country sometimes.

cavan shooter

Also meant to say stop comparing Ireland to other Countries....we are not Germany or England or the States. Just because it's done outside the state doesn't automatically mean it's better...

gunny123

cavan shooter wrote: »

A couple of months ago the sports coalition of vested interests were muting a "safe pass" for shooters and we went ballistic at the thought. They muted a proposed ban on fox shooting

This course and it's proposal is a done deal and it's introduction is as a dodgy way of introducing the same course by the back door.
This Hcap is the thin end of the wedge and the start of what the sports coalition of vested interests are trying to do dominate the shooting scene for there own good. It looks as if the deer stalker is being singled out for this and been hung out to dry. Where is the Deer Associations on this matter.?

Where are the deer associations on this ? Fully behind it if there is handy money to be made is my guess.

cavan shooter

A couple of months ago the sports coalition of vested interests were muting a "safe pass" for shooters and we went ballistic at the thought. They muted a proposed ban on fox shooting

This course and it's proposal is a done deal and it's introduction is as a dodgy way of introducing the same course by the back door.
This Hcap is the thin end of the wedge and the start of what the sports coalition of vested interests are trying to do dominate the shooting scene for there own good. It looks as if the deer stalker is being singled out for this and been hung out to dry. Where is the Deer Associations on this matter.?

Sika98k

What is that that juice1304 says about the range test ? People taking 3(three) attempts at the test ? Surely not on the same day. The manual does state that only 2(two) attempts are allowed on the one day.
Is this course being run properly ? if what juice1304 says is correct it does not seem to be maintaining a high standard,if any.

meathstevie

juice1304 wrote: »

The course has nothing to do with fieldcraft it is a shooting exam and a test to see if you can identify potential diseases and where to shoot the deer along with basic law in relation to hunting deer.
I have nothing to do with any of these organizations nor would i as i have seen how they are all run like everything in Ireland it is usually a bunch of idiots looking for control.
However, i will say in a sense the test is not a bad idea. I already did the HCAP a few years ago simply to have it. And while at the tests there were many many "expert deer stalkers" there who of course knew it all up until the point they had to tick the few multiple choice question and shoot the few shots.
I found the standard of shooting to be quite shocking considering the majority of the shots were supported and all within 100m some of them were shooting three times..
I think how it will end up with one of these groups running **** courses is a shame, but if it were done right and not at a crazy cost the idea is good.
If it was done how it is done in America it would be great.
Also find yourselves lucky in Germany it is €3000 to do the hunting licence with a 75% fail rate the majority of the courses are run over a six month period too and unless you own land yourself it is crazy money like 700 a hecter where i am at the moment, along with the fact that the hunter pays the farmer for any damage to the land, crops, equipment or fencing etc.. that the animals do throughout the year. A friend of mine had to pay out €20,000 last year from damage done by the wild boar.

I don't think anyone has a fundamental issue with some level of objective testing and qualification but bar those standing to line their pockets just about everyone has a serious issue with the gombeen carry on it more than likely will involve.

Grizzly 45

Already on the cards CS.Have a look at what they are pushing in HCAP 2 and trained hunter.

But was thinking about this last night, even if it does go thru, it will probably have [1] zero effect on poaching and [2] probably increase it.Because how many people are going to say quietly "Fuk this for a lark, Ill continue without all this paperwork and other nonsense.The farmer is going to be grand as nowI'll shoot deer for him anytime he wants them gone.I'll join a target shooting club and that covers the good reason to own a rifle." Knock on effect, now NPWS has literally no idea on deer numbers as there are fewer bag returns.Even where poaching is happening and even LESS cooperation from the very people it should be helping and needs to do its job of conservation.

The commercial poachers[who probably have the HCAP already] ramp it up as there will be lets abandoned all over the place, where there was pitiful reporting or action taken against poaching it will become non-existent, or lads will dump the rifles and revert back to the 1970s methods of shotgun slugs, which anyone with half a brain can make after watching a youtube video these days.I grew up in the 1970's and 80s here and I can honestly say I never recall anyone being caught or sentenced for poaching.Bar one edjit,and that was for selling pheasents to a butcher.Poaching prosecutions have only become more common as dipshts have posted their activities on FB or social media,and because lads have taken an intrest in protecting their lets since the big cal rifles arrived back on the scene.

In short,the UNINTENDED consequences of this being pushed out of Coilte onto the rest of us,will proably set Irish stalking back at least 30 years.

cavan shooter

Can't help thinking this is all linked to the infamous sports coalition of vested interests and there view of the future for shooters in Ireland. There train was derailed on one front and now they have forced it back on a different track

This has to be fought tooth and nail or watch when you have to do similiar for your humble rabbit shooter or pheasant shooter.

To quote
"They haven't gone away you know."

Sika98k

meathstevie wrote: »

Realistically speaking the basic knowledge one requires to hunt deer for non-commercial purposes is very simple. Be able to differentiate between red, sika, hybrid and fallow deer. Know what a set of antlers looks like and know the open and closed season dates and be able to shoot safely. It also helps if you know how to skin and gut a rabbit because the only difference between that and skinning and gutting a deer is weight and size.

Shhh, if everyone knows that you won't be able to run courses to train people and make money out of them.

meathstevie

Realistically speaking the basic knowledge one requires to hunt deer for non-commercial purposes is very simple. Be able to differentiate between red, sika, hybrid and fallow deer. Know what a set of antlers looks like and know the open and closed season dates and be able to shoot safely. It also helps if you know how to skin and gut a rabbit because the only difference between that and skinning and gutting a deer is weight and size.