DCM 2017 Mentored Novices Thread

sillymoo · 01-10-2017 09:31AM

Gosh what a week - work has been mental and finally succumbed to a savage viral illness which wiped me all week. Only feeling somewhat back to myself today. Unfortunately these things are an occupational hazard

no running this week for me. Won't get to do next long run until Tuesday. Will try 14mi tue and 20 Ni following tue (weekend is out) and try get some short runs done in between. I really am hoping the summer of training will get me over the line for DCM as my schedule has been crap and body giving up on me this week. Fingers crossed!!! Also must get my flu jab.....

scotindublin · 01-10-2017 10:31AM

I would be inclined to give yourself a few days and make sure you are over the viral illness (sounds nasty) if you are still not feeling 100% on Tuesday do not try and force the 14 miler.

You have plenty of miles in the bag at this stage and I would be wary of doing more harm than good at this stage.

Now is not the time to jeopardise the "main thing".

sillymoo wrote: »

Gosh what a week - work has been mental and finally succumbed to a savage viral illness which wiped me all week. Only feeling somewhat back to myself today. Unfortunately these things are an occupational hazard no running this week for me. Won't get to do next long run until Tuesday. Will try 14mi tue and 20 Ni following tue (weekend is out) and try get some short runs done in between. I really am hoping the summer of training will get me over the line for DCM as my schedule has been crap and body giving up on me this week. Fingers crossed!!! Also must get my flu jab.....

skyblue46 · 01-10-2017 11:44AM

So that's it! My longest pre marathon run done and dusted. Decided to make this weekend my breakfast and fuelling dress rehearsal too. I didn't get off to the best start to that plan as I had the best part of a bottle of nice red wine last night!! :rolleyes:

The plan was to divide my run in 3....7.5 miles @ LSR pace, 7.5 @ easy pace and finish with 8 @ MP. I had decided to take a gel every 40 mins and I stuck to this. In an attempt to replicate the difficulty of Heartbreak Hill coming so late in the marathon I planned my route to have the hill out of Chapelizod at mile 20 and the Khyber Pass at 22. These 2, particularly the latter had my legs begging to stop!!

Thankfully I got it done and the buzz after was unreal. The taper starts here!!

Wubble Wubble · 01-10-2017 01:31PM

Week 15

Greetings Novices

We're just going through the bell for the final lap of our training cycles. September is in the past, and now we're in the month where all the magic is going to happen

To those of you feeling a bit down about the whole thing, fear not! Come what may, there are only four weeks to go! You're getting close to something which you haven't (in most cases) done before, so it's only natural that doubts may start to creep in. Visualise the crowds all around the course cheering you on, and the extra strength you'll draw from that, as well as having runners all around you from start to finish to run with/against.

I can't put an actual value on this, only to say it makes a massive difference on the day, especially if you train alone most or all of the time. See it through, and experience something very special, which even if you run many more marathons, may never be matched

so if at all possible, don't let all those training miles go to waste!

There have been some great LSRs reported here as well as on Strava. Of course, there are a lot of non-Novices in there too, but it's usually easy enough to tell the difference

Keep the reports coming in, be they good or bad!

Especially now we're so close to the big day, illnesses and injuries will hopefully be avoided as best as possible. One or two of you have been hit hard of late in this regard. Recover well, and resist the temptation to rush back too soon. Unfortunately, it may mean you need to revise your A goal for DCM - or start thinking about a B goal. To those of you with no injury niggles at all to report - you're so lucky, as with so many miles under your belt, that's a very unusual situation to be in. Fingers crossed it will continue

Plans for next week as follows. Those of you following HHN1 have your longest mileage of the plan, with its only 20 miler included. Boards has a midweek PMP session for the first time in a little while.

HHN1: Rest + 5M easy + 10M easy + 5M easy + rest + 20M LSR + cross

Boards: (Rest/cross/3M rec) + 5M easy + (1M w/u + 5M PMP + 1M c/d) + 3M rec + (rest/cross/3M rec) + 18M LSR + 3M rec

Good luck everyone!

Damo 2k9 · 01-10-2017 02:20PM

This run is the least appealing thing right now, the early shifts and drinking friday-saturday combined have me absolutely wrecked. As we all say tho, these are the runs that will get us across the line. If im not back in 3 hours someone check the park for me, chances are ill be asleep

Baby75 · 01-10-2017 02:26PM

So got out this morning for my LSR and it was a slow torture fest lol my hips were at me more my right which I had to stop and stretch, as the muscle cramped on me a few times. but eased off my right calf started hurting again like the last LSR ( but was fine last week) it is not as bad though,I actually thought I ran it a lot slower over 3 hours but it was 2hrs 44mins, So I was glad that it was under 3 hours and 1 km more than we should have done LOL but for a lot of that run I just wanted to stop! but I didn't well apart from stretching and walking for a few feet but I am happy I kept going and did not send hubby on to get the car and come get me

I am slightly nervous now though, as I was finishing up I kept thinking how the hell would I keep going another 20 km for marathon! or even next week 20mile LSR with my legs feeling like this!

Trying to think positive, I think one good reason to go and do some races during your training as you know you can keep going when the legs get tired and the atmosphere and crowds other runners get you though it

I also was thinking the reason for my sore hips, was because I worked on the exercises the physio gave me last night

This week is a big week running 40miles in total I just need to get through it and in good shape of course

El Caballo · 01-10-2017 02:39PM

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Cheers B , I'm hoping hitting that hill in River Valley at 18 and 20 miles stands to me for the 20 mile hill I think there is at the marathon.

TBH and I know this statement will probably come back and bite me bad but I was fresh enough at the end of the 20 miles and certainly felt like I could of ran a fast 10k at the end, maybe El Caballo post has me over cautious and that wall will never come (he says hopefully!)

I may not make the 3/4 marathon have a family event that day , I might split the difference and run 21 next week and finish again with a hard Parkrun , I know this wall is supposed to be sudden but at the moment its hard to imagine it happening given how I've felt both times I've got to 20miles.

Would hardly call you over-cautious:p. Look, My posts here were based around my own experiences and the experiences of many others who I've followed over the years in the novices threads of the past years. What I wrote was with that all in mind and was not just directed at you but all of the Novice group this year who are reading it. The pacing strategy I posted was something I posted with many considerations in mind, it might be right or wrong from one person to the next but with the course and experience levels of the runners here in mind, I thought it was for the best in general even if it freaked people out a little. Encouragement can't be valued enough for novice runners but I feel there has to be some realistic truth in there too as that will ensure a better success rate for the group.

The reasons for me pushing the cautious approach here are numerous. Firstly, Dublin is a course tailor made for a negative split(faster second half) because all the tough climbs come early. Many here will have heard of the notorious Roebuck hill around 22 miles. The thing is that Roebuck is a short little speedbump if you paced Chesterfield ave. or Chapelizod right. In my few runs of the marathon, I've always noticed that if it's windy, it mostly starts to become a problem around Dolphins barn just after halfway too so it's always good to have measured your effort through the first half.

This is a fact, the vast majority of runners will record a positive split on the day trying to overshoot their ability whether novice or experienced. That is why my post was suggesting going out a few minutes slower than you think you are capable of. it's not you feeling cocky but probably 70% of the field will overestimate their ability on the day. We talked about adrenaline making a certain pace feel easy on the race day and no doubt it will help but will need to be managed early on as I said the first 20 miles are not a race situation but the last 6.2 are and that opens up oppurtunity if you have paced the race right up to that point. The adrenaline and euphoria of blazing past streams of runners and huge crowds over the last few miles can not be underestimated. And although I haven't experienced that in a marathon(hopefully will change that soon;)), I know it happens from hearing stories.

The Weather, it could be absolute perfection or maybe not(either way, it's not something you can change so no use worrying about it) but as runners, we are a stubborn bunch and once commuted to a goal time, there's not much anyone can say to shake our focus on that time no matter what the circumstances are. The marathon is much more than a race against the clock and distance, it's also a race against the elements and the terrain(which I talked about above) as they will all have an effect on your performance. as the saying goes"prepare for the worst and hope for the best".

if most on here go out a few minutes slower than they intended, the success of the whole group will be higher. Of course, this is all just my opinion and the ultimate decision is up the person running but all my posts are intended to give what I think is the best advice to the limits of my knowledge and experience.

El Caballo · 01-10-2017 02:49PM

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Cheers B , I'm hoping hitting that hill in River Valley at 18 and 20 miles stands to me for the 20 mile hill I think there is at the marathon.

TBH and I know this statement will probably come back and bite me bad but I was fresh enough at the end of the 20 miles and certainly felt like I could of ran a fast 10k at the end, maybe El Caballo post has me over cautious and that wall will never come (he says hopefully!)

I may not make the 3/4 marathon have a family event that day , I might split the difference and run 21 next week and finish again with a hard Parkrun , I know this wall is supposed to be sudden but at the moment its hard to imagine it happening given how I've felt both times I've got to 20miles.

Also, Forgot to say. By all means, do the 21 if you want but I would scrap the hard park run. One of the main ideas of the long run is to teach your body to efficiently use fat as fuel. Once you start digging into very hard efforts during long runs, you start using lactate as fuel which is basically made up of carbohydrates which you want to avoid as it is a different form of energy than you will use on race day. Maybe slipping in a few MP miles to end the run would be of more benefit.

The Black Oil · 01-10-2017 02:59PM

October is here, welcome to marathon month.

May it be mischievous and marvellous for you all. :P

Battery Kinzie · 01-10-2017 03:42PM

Had planned to do ~26k for my LSR today, but only managed 20k as my knee was still slightly at me and low down in my calf wasnt great either. I feel like I'll be playing a balancing act over the next 4 weeks between trying to get as many runs in as possible while also trying to rid myself of the niggles I've had over the last week or two.

I'm going to try go to the physio this week anyway even though there's not much wrong with me, and hopefully I'll be able to get a goos long run in next week and maybe the week after, depending.

Edit: also, I just can't imagine a scenario where something won't be hurting after 20 miles in the marathon. Ive neglected stretching and strength work too much for it not to, but I've kinda accepted that and the HM last week has given me good confidence.

Kellygirl · 01-10-2017 03:54PM

El Caballo wrote: »

Would hardly call you over-cautious:p. Look, My posts here were based around my own experiences and the experiences of many others who I've followed over the years in the novices threads of the past years. What I wrote was with that all in mind and was not just directed at you but all of the Novice group this year who are reading it. The pacing strategy I posted was something I posted with many considerations in mind, it might be right or wrong from one person to the next but with the course and experience levels of the runners here in mind, I thought it was for the best in general even if it freaked people out a little. Encouragement can't be valued enough for novice runners but I feel there has to be some realistic truth in there too as that will ensure a better success rate for the group.

The reasons for me pushing the cautious approach here are numerous. Firstly, Dublin is a course tailor made for a negative split(faster second half) because all the tough climbs come early. Many here will have heard of the notorious Roebuck hill around 22 miles. The thing is that Roebuck is a short little speedbump if you paced Chesterfield ave. or Chapelizod right. In my few runs of the marathon, I've always noticed that if it's windy, it mostly starts to become a problem around Dolphins barn just after halfway too so it's always good to have measured your effort through the first half.

This is a fact, the vast majority of runners will record a positive split on the day trying to overshoot their ability whether novice or experienced. That is why my post was suggesting going out a few minutes slower than you think you are capable of. it's not you feeling cocky but probably 70% of the field will overestimate their ability on the day. We talked about adrenaline making a certain pace feel easy on the race day and no doubt it will help but will need to be managed early on as I said the first 20 miles are not a race situation but the last 6.2 are and that opens up oppurtunity if you have paced the race right up to that point. The adrenaline and euphoria of blazing past streams of runners and huge crowds over the last few miles can not be underestimated. And although I haven't experienced that in a marathon(hopefully will change that soon;)), I know it happens from hearing stories.

The Weather, it could be absolute perfection or maybe not(either way, it's not something you can change so no use worrying about it) but as runners, we are a stubborn bunch and once commuted to a goal time, there's not much anyone can say to shake our focus on that time no matter what the circumstances are. The marathon is much more than a race against the clock and distance, it's also a race against the elements and the terrain(which I talked about above) as they will all have an effect on your performance. as the saying goes"prepare for the worst and hope for the best".

if most on here go out a few minutes slower than they intended, the success of the whole group will be higher. Of course, this is all just my opinion and the ultimate decision is up the person running but all my posts are intended to give what I think is the best advice to the limits of my knowledge and experience.

Great post! I just hope I can stick to that plan on the day. Thanks.

Spirogyra · 01-10-2017 05:18PM

Did XC today, as best I could with a cold,think it revived me a bit, in terms of motivation, desperate conditions but ...If I could do one more 20 miler this week, I could yet run a good DCM, I'm nearly there.....

Wubble Wubble · 01-10-2017 05:51PM

XC is tough in the whole of your health, let alone if you're ill. Dublin Novice XC in the Phoenix Park? I haven't seen the results yet, but it's usually a pretty high standard. Well done on getting through it. If nothing else, it should give you a bit of extra HTFU for your 20 miler.

scotindublin · 01-10-2017 06:36PM

That is a pretty tough XC route that was run today....very good standard at Novice level.

Would have normally been running it but it was a good watch from the sidelines on a course we train on a lot with the club and which showed in the team results.

skyblue46 · 01-10-2017 06:42PM

Kellygirl wrote: »

Great post! I just hope I can stick to that plan on the day. Thanks.

As a plan I think it is the most important one by a country mile. Pacing is critical above all else. Keep energy in the bank for late in the marathon, not time gained early on.

scotindublin · 01-10-2017 07:00PM

Some great reports coming in from the weekend; I can also sense the enormity in what lies ahead is niggling away at some of you.

I know we are like a broken record when we always say trust in the plan but this really is key.....the work that you have all put in over the last few months will guarantee that you will be up there at the start line as the best prepared novices in the marathon. You have got 99% of the hard work done. Another couple of weeks and you are there.

If you have niggles or are not feeling 100% spend this time to get yourself sorted; there is no need to go chasing miles from missed runs and making things worse.

Sleep eat and rest well. Nearly there now. This time in 4 weeks you will be marathon runners!

Craig

Damo 2k9 · 01-10-2017 07:14PM

LSR Done, 17miles in the bank which im delighted about as I was a bit worried because 15 had been the furthest before this one. What a crappy run, left knee coming up again mainly toward the end. I really sound like a broken record at this stage but its absolutely wrecking my head. One of them runs where you cant think of anything else other than not being able to do the marathon. For the half, the little mini taper before it worked wonders and I felt fresh as a daisy going for it, im really just hoping that thats the case for the full. Im gonna see another physio hopefully during the week and see if anything new has popped up, or see can this one find the problem.

On the other hand, it was a grand warm day and the phoenix park was jammers with runners that all gave the runner nod! One more week and then roll on the taper. I think im made for shorter distance runs...

skyblue46 · 01-10-2017 07:41PM

scotindublin wrote: »

Some great reports coming in from the weekend; I can also sense the enormity in what lies ahead is niggling away at some of you.

I know we are like a broken record when we always say trust in the plan but this really is key.....the work that you have all put in over the last few months will guarantee that you will be up there at the start line as the best prepared novices in the marathon. You have got 99% of the hard work done. Another couple of weeks and you are there.

If you have niggles or are not feeling 100% spend this time to get yourself sorted; there is no need to go chasing miles from missed runs and making things worse.

Sleep eat and rest well. Nearly there now. This time in 4 weeks you will be marathon runners!

Craig

Thanks for all your input and encouragement. I'm sure I speak for all in thanking the experts for their input. There is certainly no way I would be as well prepared for my first attempt at a marathon if I hadn't stumbled across this page

Baby75 · 01-10-2017 08:20PM

skyblue46 wrote: »

Thanks for all your input and encouragement. I'm sure I speak for all in thanking the experts for their input. There is certainly no way I would be as well prepared for my first attempt at a marathon if I hadn't stumbled across this page

I could not agree more Thank you all so much to all who have helped us so far I have learnt so much already

muddypaws · 01-10-2017 08:22PM

No LSR this week, the plans to do it on Thursday or Friday just didn't happen, and all thoughts of it were rejected on Saturday after cycling 6 miles, scootering 3 miles and running just over a mile with a child who I was told would walk most of it, but who insisted on running all the way, at an average page of 8:58/m, which I know isn't fast for a lot of people in here, but it is for me.

Big week this week in the HHN1 plan, I got an early start on it, with the first 5 miles today (almost 5, but I did also cycle 3 and scooter 3, so that counts), I need to do the 20 mile LSR on Friday, so a break tomorrow, 10 miles on Tuesday, 5 on wednesday then the LSR. My right achilles is very sore though, so I'm hoping its not going to be an issue, it seems to be gradually getting worse. Just need it to hold out for a month.

Kellygirl · 01-10-2017 08:33PM

muddypaws wrote: »

No LSR this week, the plans to do it on Thursday or Friday just didn't happen, and all thoughts of it were rejected on Saturday after cycling 6 miles, scootering 3 miles and running just over a mile with a child who I was told would walk most of it, but who insisted on running all the way, at an average page of 8:58/m, which I know isn't fast for a lot of people in here, but it is for me.

Big week this week in the HHN1 plan, I got an early start on it, with the first 5 miles today (almost 5, but I did also cycle 3 and scooter 3, so that counts), I need to do the 20 mile LSR on Friday, so a break tomorrow, 10 miles on Tuesday, 5 on wednesday then the LSR. My right achilles is very sore though, so I'm hoping its not going to be an issue, it seems to be gradually getting worse. Just need it to hold out for a month.

That’s irritating about the achilles. Would it be worth getting checked out?

muddypaws · 01-10-2017 08:44PM

Kellygirl wrote: »

That’s irritating about the achilles. Would it be worth getting checked out?

Yeah, I'll see if I can get a physio appointment this week, hopefully I will get one.

AuldManKing · 01-10-2017 09:54PM

So We're in October..... eeeeekkkkkkkkk

The 1st 2 weeks in October are dangerous ones for DCM Marathon runners.
We feel that we haven't done enough long runs or tempo runs or MP runs.

We could undo our training in these few weeks by being stupid.

So, the thought process for all you Novice runners should be:

* Where have I come from - what was my training like before marathon training.
* Where am I now - how much have I improved as a runner since I started marathon training.
- Measure Improvement on a number of vectors - longest run, miles per week, how you feel, what a 5m run means to you now etc.
* What do I need to do in the coming 4 weeks.

So the next 4 weeks are so so important to you - possibly the most important.

For a good few of you , next week will be your largest mileage week / or your longest run. Plan for that week / run - make sure you have the time for it, make sue you have your gear, make sure you have your nutrition etc.

Some of you may decide to do the 3/4 Mara next weekend in Longwood. I'm doing it, its a great event, well organised, and fantastic preparation.
If you are doing the 3/4 Mara in Longwood or a similar event elsewhere - don't leave your race at this event - definitely dont rinse yourselves.

For me - I plan on the following - 6m@MP+20s / 6m @MP+10s / 6m@MP / 1.9m Hard - but the day might be tough and this plan goes out the window.
For Novices, there are a large number of ways to run this event, the important thing is that you get your nutrition sorted (inc breakfast) and also wear your DCM gear at this event.

Which brings me to the main point of this post.

What do you do if the conditions on race day are not favorable?

What if we have 30km winds as we had today?
What if we have high humidity as we had a few years back (2104 I think)
What if its lashing raining?

We need to prepare, mentally, for this.

As I'm doing DCM, My training pace has been 6:30/mile which indicates a 2:49 marathon ( well 6:29 does......) but I know that DCM will take me 26.4 or 26.6 miles to complete, so the additional 0.2-0.4m will add on minutes to this.

So I'm going to target 2:54 for the marathon - which should be about 6:39/mile.
Now - if its windy I'm quite ok, changing this target to 2:58 or 6:48/mile, which doesn't sound like much, but it is.

So my point here is - you may have a goal for the marathon, but you may need to amend this goal based on the conditions on the day and be comfortable doing this.

The difficulty here is if you are looking at a target based on round numbers 3:50 / 3:40 /4:30 etc - Maybe this needs to be a few minutes later in the 1st half of the marathon (the difficult half).

So - have a target, but also have a B target if the weather doesn't play ball.

But I will end by saying again - the best way to run a 1st marathon, is to enjoy it without looking at any clock.

annapr · 01-10-2017 10:01PM

Great post from AMK ^^^ ... except it was 2014 not 2104

. When the high was 19 degrees and very humid... :eek: (those of us who were novices that year still haven't gotten over it)

The main thing though from his post is... you've all done the training and it's alll about hanging in through October.... nearly there!

Wubble Wubble · 01-10-2017 10:03PM

Just for any of ye heading to Longwood next week.

AMK's plan for the 3/4 marathon may look good for some of you. Bear in mind that he's a lot more experienced... and hence better at deciding when to ease back if it's not working. I won't be there, but it's an event I'd like to try eventually. Best of luck to anyone heading out ðŸ˜‰

positron · 01-10-2017 10:24PM

Great posts, even some time travelers among us!

Amazing to read the inspirational posts as well as the success stories of really long long runs!

In my own person DCM adventure, last week has been.. bad. I couldn't recover from the half for days (I kept getting this feeling of something wrong deep inside.. you know that feeling you get inside if you brake a bone or something - it's a strange sensation, somehow my body was telling my brain that "what the hell was that you moron?"). I kept eating and drinking all sorts of stuff to get rid of that feeling but it didn't go away for like three days. Then I got couple of short runs during the week, and wife had to go to a hen night which meant Saturday morning was cut short to 20k as well - which was just as well because it was seriously no fun. I can't believe I had done two 28k runs only two/three weeks ago. I have to get back on the horse again in next week or so - I understand from the post above that there is no point overdoing it at this eleventh hour, but I will try and get one decent week of training this week and one or two slow and steady LSRs - perhaps 30-32k. I also picked up one of those Hi5 marathon packs from Lidl, so might give their gels and Zero tablet a go. Too early to talk about taper here for sure!

skyblue46 · 01-10-2017 10:29PM

AuldManKing wrote: »

So We're in October..... eeeeekkkkkkkkk

The 1st 2 weeks in October are dangerous ones for DCM Marathon runners.
We feel that we haven't done enough long runs or tempo runs or MP runs.

We could undo our training in these few weeks by being

Just a quick question on this. I have been very diligent on following the boards plan in terms of paces and the general layout of the plan. I have though being doing more miles than the plan almost all the way through it. When it comes to taper should I drop to the plan or use a percentage drop based on the last few weeks?

quickbeam · 02-10-2017 06:15AM

Wubble Wubble wrote: »

To those of you with no injury niggles at all to report - you're so lucky, as with so many miles under your belt, that's a very unusual situation to be in.

This is me :eek: I should be pleased but it actually has me worried. It makes me wonder what October will bring.

Wubble Wubble wrote: »

Fingers crossed it will continue

Concur, concur, concur, concur!!

Sheep1978 · 02-10-2017 07:27AM

Last weeks runs:
Mon:rest
Tues am: 4.6m@ 8.58
Tues pm: 6.3m @ 9.30
Wed: 6.45m @ 8.32
Thurs: rest
Fri: 1.5m jog to the local train station where I got the train to castleknock. Then did 20.4m @8.59 which took in the DCM route from Myos pub onwards. Pretty tired the last 5 miles but delighted to get another 20m in (nearly 22 incl the run to the station)
Sat : 2.6 km rec run on a treadmill. First time in a long while on a treadmill. Felt weird!!!
Sun: rest

Only 4 weeks to go!!!!!!

brownbinman · 02-10-2017 08:25AM

Bad news folks, I'm 100% out of this years race.

Long story short, I can't shift the injury I've had. I reckon it's from too much too soon. I'm finding it uncomfortable even walking, and even trotting across the road it's as if my leg is going to collapse underneath me. Very sore.

So, my plan is to keep an eye out for ye on the road that day with a big bag of jellies in my hang. I'm going to have to give it a month off and then get back to 5-10km over the winter. I really only started running in Feb/March so I'm guessing that's the major issue

Not the end of the world, these things happen but I think it would be very foolish to try attempt

Best of luck all

DCM 2017 Mentored Novices Thread

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