DCM 2017 Mentored Novices Thread

skyblue46

Candamir wrote: »

Interesting! What's the feeling regarding actually being able to run negative splits? For inexperienced runners/racers? I like the idea, but I'd worry that when I'd ask my legs to speed up at 3, 10 and especially 18 miles that it just wouldn't be there! I'd end up running a much slower race than if I'd started at average pace. Is it a matter of practice or willpower, or both?

I'm inexperienced and I think it's the only way to go. I started doing it from my second (of a now massive catalogue of 12) race after doing Couch to 5k a couple of years ago. Main reason was that I died at 4k in the first one and never wanted that pain again!:pac:

Spirogyra

It might not be day to 'try something new' and I'm used to try to go 'fairly even'. I'm strongly considering aiming for even splits, that is what I am 'used to'. Aim for 3'40. If I fall behind then know what's required for 3'45 or even 3'49, both of which would still be 'good results'.

AuldManKing

Candamir wrote: »

Interesting! What's the feeling regarding actually being able to run negative splits? For inexperienced runners/racers? I like the idea, but I'd worry that when I'd ask my legs to speed up at 3, 10 and especially 18 miles that it just wouldn't be there! I'd end up running a much slower race than if I'd started at average pace. Is it a matter of practice or willpower, or both?

This is a good point for Novice runners - a negative split marathon is an aspiration for many. I haven't done it yet. :mad:

Spirogyra wrote: »

That's a great video Kellygirl, thanks a lot I'll have to 'do my Maths tonight'

I'm going to try to find out 'what the Pacers do'.

I understand about not wanting to go out too fast...but I'm not really one for 'finishing strongly' or fast , apart from the final 100 metres or so

The pacers will run even splits - you might get 2 or 3 pacers per group and 1 pacer might run at the very top of the group and another at the back - the pacer at the top of the group might bring that group home in a min or so faster than the other group. (note the use of the word 'Might' - thats in case Anto shows up (Pacer cult leader))

Candamir

skyblue46 wrote: »

I'm inexperienced and I think it's the only way to go. I started doing it from my second (of a now massive catalogue of 12) race after doing Couch to 5k a couple of years ago. Main reason was that I died at 4k in the first one and never wanted that pain again!:pac:

Emm. I've reviewed my extensive catalog of races (2 in total - raheny 5 mile and Ballycotton 10 earlier this year. I'm not including the mini marathon I ran when I was 14. 52mins gun time but no idea of the splits. Were there even splits recorded back then:) )
Ive run even splits in the 5 mile, and slightly positive split in the 10 (although I did injure my knee early in that race). So basically can't really draw much conclusion from that! Back to the drawing board for me!

El Caballo

Candamir wrote: »

Interesting! What's the feeling regarding actually being able to run negative splits? For inexperienced runners/racers? I like the idea, but I'd worry that when I'd ask my legs to speed up at 3, 10 and especially 18 miles that it just wouldn't be there! I'd end up running a much slower race than if I'd started at average pace. Is it a matter of practice or willpower, or both?

As unthought Known was saying, it's more a matter of confidence than anything else. The beauty in the approach to going out slower for novices is that if you can't speed up, you've limited the damage that could've been had you gone out fast or on even pace for your goal as you can get a feel of the pace further into the race rather than going out fast and only find out too late, You won't be hurting as much or as early as you could've been. The other scenario is that you can pick up the pace and start pushing on towards the end.

The approach of negative splitting a race sounds so much more intimidating and I understand that as the distance still holds a lot of fear for novices and speeding up at the end of the race sounds insane but it really is the smart option as it cuts down on the risk majorly. I know for a fact that 99% of you guys will finish the marathon and you should be all confident of running the distance. There's an old saying in marathon running that "It's not the distance, it's the pace that kills". With a slower start, you decrease the likelihood of a fade and increase the likelihood of a fast finish. So even if you can't pick it over the last few miles, you've decreased how much you will slowdown.

Spirogyra wrote: »

It might not be day to 'try something new' and I'm used to try to go 'fairly even'. I'm strongly considering aiming for even splits, that is what I am 'used to'. Aim for 3'40. If I fall behind then know what's required for 3'45 or even 3'49, both of which would still be 'good results'.

I don't know about others but when I use or hear that phrase, I usually take it as something which means not to try new outside things like gels or new shoes that could mess up your race and not racing strategies. With the marathon, it's the only time that you can try out new racing strategies as it's the race. I'm going out more conservatively than I think this time around and it's my fourth marathon, if I don't try a new strategy out this time, I'm just going to keep going out way too fast and blowing up like I have in all my previous marathons. While we all look at our goal race as the ultimate heading into it, each marathon should also be looked at as a learning experience and an oppurtunity to tweak our approach and see how it turns out so we know better next time.

Anyway, you've run a few marathons before so should have a better feel for it than most here but for the majority, everything on race day is new and a conservative approach would suit them better in my opinion as it's better to work up to your limits than work down when it comes to the marathon imo.

skyblue46

Candamir wrote: »

Emm. I've reviewed my extensive catalog of races (2 in total - raheny 5 mile and Ballycotton 10 earlier this year. I'm not including the mini marathon I ran when I was 14. 52mins gun time but no idea of the splits. Were there even splits recorded back then:) )
Ive run even splits in the 5 mile, and slightly positive split in the 10 (although I did injure my knee early in that race). So basically can't really draw much conclusion from that! Back to the drawing board for me!

I did the Fingal in 47 minutes (25/22) and the half in 1:41 (first 10k 50:25, last 10k 45.15), both negative splits. It feels great to feel good as you pick people off later in the race. A negative is that you're not sure if you could have shaved a bit off the first half and still finished as fast. Personally I don't think I'd do as well if they were positive splits. My head is totally fried as regards pacing the marathon!!

El Caballo

skyblue46 wrote: »

I did the Fingal in 47 minutes (25/22) and the half in 1:41 (first 10k 50:25, last 10k 45.15), both negative splits. It feels great to feel good as you pick people off later in the race. A negative is that you're not sure if you could have shaved a bit off the first half and still finished as fast. Personally I don't think I'd do as well if they were positive splits. My head is totally fried as regards pacing the marathon!!

My last post, I promise!! Probably went a bit far with it but I tend to over think and waffle on a lot:pac:

Candamir

Thanks El Caballo. I think for me I could probably manage 4 hours on a good day, but worry about blowing up. On the other hand, using Unthought Known's link, for negative splits a sub 4 marathon sends me out initially at 9:26 pace, which is kind of what my LSRs have been coming in as ( I know, probably a bit too fast, but it's what seems comfortable for me). If it came to it and I couldn't step on the gas, that pace still gets me home in 4:07, which tbh I'd be very happy with. So maybe I'll try something like that and see how it goes. Assuming of course the next few weeks go to plan and I reach my first target - getting to the start line relatively healthy!

skyblue46

El Caballo wrote: »

My last post, I promise!! Probably went a bit far with it but I tend to over think and waffle on a lot:pac:

God no, your posts are great. I'm in full agreement re pacing and yesterdays long run reinforced that belief

Candamir

Likewise. I'm a great fan of your very informative 'waffle'!

Unthought Known

Candamir wrote: »

Thanks El Caballo. I think for me I could probably manage 4 hours on a good day, but worry about blowing up. On the other hand, using Unthought Known's link, for negative splits a sub 4 marathon sends me out initially at 9:26 pace, which is kind of what my LSRs have been coming in as ( I know, probably a bit too fast, but it's what seems comfortable for me). If it came to it and I couldn't step on the gas, that pace still gets me home in 4:07, which tbh I'd be very happy with. So maybe I'll try something like that and see how it goes. Assuming of course the next few weeks go to plan and I reach my first target - getting to the start line relatively healthy!

To be honest you'll probably find it hard to get into a steady pace in the first couple of miles anyway. First corner you'll literally come to a standstill and it will take a while to get into a nice stride.
If you've been comfortably running your LSR's around 9:26 I would say you're looking good for 4 hours, but (there's always a but) in your first marathon you really don't know how you're going to feel at mile 15, 16,17........ Only you will know on the day so have a B (and C) goal in mind and don't be afraid to listen to your body and switch goals.
Of course, if you're feeling "heavy" it could just be a patch that you can push through. Again, only you can make that call, to push on or dial it back.

Apparently only 1% of the population will run a marathon and, from what I've read, only around 25% of those will run under 4 hours. Remember this. Just by finishing you are achieving something 99% of the population has not done!

By the way, this analysis of DCM was linked to in last years novice thread. Makes some very interesting reading.

D3PO

so last week was a step back week for me but I turned it into a week off.

Primarily I was mentally shot and lacking seriously in motivation and partly because as it was a step back I felt that resting up would be better for my knee issue anyway.

At least that's how I convinced myself for the training hiatus.

Anyway back into it last night with a 6 miler @ 8.50 per mile pace felt nice and easy after the break and energized for the weeks training ahead including the 20 miler at the weekend before the taper weeks start.

RolandDeschain

Week 13 report

A bit late with this but i said I'd throw this up!

Much better week than the 2 weeks before. Mentally recharged and motivated after the half marathon.

Monday - gym and squats
Tuesday - 5 miles easy
Wednesday - 8 miles easy in the rain
Thursday - 6 mile easy run home
Friday - gym
Saturday - perfect day back home to tackle the second 20 miler. Hard going. Included a lot of hills in my route but managed it and paced myself quite well

Less than 4 weeks to go now.....

splashthecash

So we have three weekends worth of lsr left before the big day - the plan I am following has the following LSRs, 20mile - 22 mile - 10 mile.

Is this too much? I'm getting some comments elsewhere that I should start winding down after this weekend as a 22 mile run two weeks out from the marathon is too much...so I would change it to something like 21 - 18 - 12

Would people agree with this?

For context I am aiming in an ideal world for 4h 05\10 mins but the chap I am training with is more like 4h 30m realistically.

jameshayes

splashthecash wrote: »

So we have three weekends worth of lsr left before the big day - the plan I am following has the following LSRs, 20mile - 22 mile - 10 mile.

Is this too much? I'm getting some comments elsewhere that I should start winding down after this weekend as a 22 mile run two weeks out from the marathon is too much...so I would change it to something like 21 - 18 - 12

Would people agree with this?

For context I am aiming in an ideal world for 4h 05\10 mins but the chap I am training with is more like 4h 30m realistically.

What are your recent LSR's? Doubting the plan comes hand in hand with the marathon day closing in - its a very popular symptom of taper madness

splashthecash

jameshayes wrote: »

What are your recent LSR's?

The last 4 are

16 - 17 - 13 (HM) - 18

Average min\mile for lsr is 9:50, but the HM I ran was very happy with - did it in 1h 45min (8:05 min\mile)

RasTa

Don't forget your Garmin's will have you running 26.4 or 5 on marathon day which might mess a bit with the heads.

Wubble Wubble

splashthecash wrote: »

So we have three weekends worth of lsr left before the big day - the plan I am following has the following LSRs, 20mile - 22 mile - 10 mile.

Is this too much? I'm getting some comments elsewhere that I should start winding down after this weekend as a 22 mile run two weeks out from the marathon is too much...so I would change it to something like 21 - 18 - 12

Would people agree with this?

For context I am aiming in an ideal world for 4h 05\10 mins but the chap I am training with is more like 4h 30m realistically.

Out of curiosity, which plan are you following?

The subject of 22 mile LSRs, and their merits or otherwise, comes up regularly on Boards. Roughly summarised, are you getting any extra benefit going over 20, especially if you'll be running well over three hours. My guess would be no - and certainly not two weeks out from your first marathon.

I'll be running my third marathon here, and I've never gone as far as 22; although the plan I'm following has it included, I think 20 will be sufficient for my needs.

splashthecash

Wubble Wubble wrote: »

Out of curiosity, which plan are you following?

The subject of 22 mile LSRs, and their merits or otherwise, comes up regularly on Boards. Roughly summarised, are you getting any extra benefit going over 20, especially if you'll be running well over three hours. My guess would be no - and certainly not two weeks out from your first marathon.

I'll be running my third marathon here, and I've never gone as far as 22; although the plan I'm following has it included, I think 20 will be sufficient for my needs.

I am actually following the modified Hal Higdon plan that this thread provided. However, I felt last year that my destruction at the 23\24 mile point was only doing one 20 mile run in my training and not being used to that distance, so I slightly modified this years plan to get in a second ~20 mile run - this seems to be a little too close to the big day though....it certainly seems to be what people are saying anyway

hot buttered scones

splashthecash wrote: »

I am actually following the modified Hal Higdon plan that this thread provided. However, I felt last year that my destruction at the 23\24 mile point was only doing one 20 mile run in my training and not being used to that distance, so I slightly modified this years plan to get in a second ~20 mile run - this seems to be a little too close to the big day though....it certainly seems to be what people are saying anyway

I'm looking at the plan now - it has 20 this weekend, then 12 then 8. I wouldn't do much more than that if I were you. You could do 20, 15 and 10 maybe but I wouldn't do that 22 miler next week.

Edit: I'm following P+D up to 55. My next three weekends are 20, 16 and 12, but that will be my third 20 miler. None of my long runs have been longer than around 2:50 though.

AuldManKing

splashthecash wrote: »

So we have three weekends worth of lsr left before the big day - the plan I am following has the following LSRs, 20mile - 22 mile - 10 mile.

Is this too much? I'm getting some comments elsewhere that I should start winding down after this weekend as a 22 mile run two weeks out from the marathon is too much...so I would change it to something like 21 - 18 - 12

Would people agree with this?

For context I am aiming in an ideal world for 4h 05\10 mins but the chap I am training with is more like 4h 30m realistically.

I'd agree that the 22 miler is too close to race day - it could also be of little value due to the time it takes for the body to adapt to a long run - so doing it will leave you a bit more tired with little training stimulus.

Its a gamble.

Another approach might be to do a 10 mile run on the Saturday an follow it up with a 14-15m run on the Sunday - the fatigue levels should be the same as doing 1 longer run but you wont be as 'beat up' over it.
Or run a 10k race on the Saturday an do a decent 14m run the next day.

What you want to do is just mimic the fatigue at this late stage.

dave_o_brien

This thread is only deadly! Thanks everyone!

I've a LSR of 18 planned this weekend, and 20 the week after, but acknowledge I'm still rebuilding strength after an ill-timed ankle break. Reading through this has been very useful. I had wanted to do 22miles before a short taper, but my coach has advised doing no more than 20 and not tapering for a fortnight, which would have been the plan but for the ankle. Now I've read through this, I think it makes a lot of sense.

ariana`

I'm back on Irish soil & trying to catch up here is top of the agenda... ok well not quite but I am scanning the posts through bleery bloodshot "I've been flying all night" eyes 😪

Lots of great LSRs last weekend. Making me panic slightly as my longest run last week was <9m

I always knew it was going to be a bad week. I got in 4 runs: 5m, 4.5m, 7m & 8.75m roughly. 5m of the 7m was PMP and was also in 32 degrees heat. So as good a week as I hoped for really but still worrying at the lack of an LSR.

Planning a few easy runs between now and the the weekend and then a 20 miler on Saturday. And then the taper begins, yikes

BBM sorry to read your bad news but great attitude, no doubt your day will come

Singer

El Caballo wrote: »

The approach of negative splitting a race sounds so much more intimidating and I understand that as the distance still holds a lot of fear for novices and speeding up at the end of the race sounds insane but it really is the smart option as it cuts down on the risk majorly. I know for a fact that 99% of you guys will finish the marathon and you should be all confident of running the distance. There's an old saying in marathon running that "It's not the distance, it's the pace that kills". With a slower start, you decrease the likelihood of a fade and increase the likelihood of a fast finish. So even if you can't pick it over the last few miles, you've decreased how much you will slowdown.

This is great advice for any marathon, but utterly crucial for Dublin. The first half of Dublin is where most of the hard parts are, so planning to run a negative split isn't just OTT conservative advice from cantankerous old runners, it's a necessary survival tactic if you're pushing yourself for a specific time.

RasTa

Best race report i have read in awhile.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104797465&postcount=160

scotindublin

Well worth all the Novices reading this.

RasTa wrote: »

Best race report i have read in awhile.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104797465&postcount=160

D3PO

pacers for DCM run even splits right ?

Kellygirl

I wonder if somebody could point me in the right direction or make any suggestions for race day please in terms of pacing. I was feeling based on my training and paces that I could do less that 4:30 on the day. I’d planned on going with the 4:30 pacers. With all this talk of negative splits and the first half of the course being the tough half I’m beginning to doubt myself.

I know i’ve been doing my LSRs a bit fast but here are my paces (most recent first)

18.6miles @ 6:25 min/km
19 miles @ 6.10 min/km
20 miles @ 6:16 min/km
10 mile race @ 5:48 min/km
17 miles @ 6:22 min/km

Did Cork Marathon in June in 4:49:24 - injured and a stone heavier so in much better shape this time.

If doing even splits the 4:30 pace is 6:20 min/km allowing for a bit of extra distance

I’ve been playing with numbers and thinking if I went out at a 4:35 pace that would be 6:31 and I’d be at the half way mark at 2:17:30 so could then try to speed up to 6:16 and do the 2nd half in 2:12:30. Means going out without pacers though and I clearly have a problem pacing myself from my long runs. I think the 4:40 pacers mean too much catch up in the 2nd half.

Any opinions? I’m terrified of hitting the wall again at 20 miles.

And sure I know that the weather or something else could change all this anyway but hopefully it’s going to be a perfect day :-)

BrownEyes79

Kellygirl wrote: »

I wonder if somebody could point me in the right direction or make any suggestions for race day please in terms of pacing. I was feeling based on my training and paces that I could do less that 4:30 on the day. I’d planned on going with the 4:30 pacers. With all this talk of negative splits and the first half of the course being the tough half I’m beginning to doubt myself.

I know i’ve been doing my LSRs a bit fast but here are my paces (most recent first)

18.6miles @ 6:25 min/km
19 miles @ 6.10 min/km
20 miles @ 6:16 min/km
10 mile race @ 5:48 min/km
17 miles @ 6:22 min/km

Did Cork Marathon in June in 4:49:24 - injured and a stone heavier so in much better shape this time.

If doing even splits the 4:30 pace is 6:20 min/km allowing for a bit of extra distance

I’ve been playing with numbers and thinking if I went out at a 4:35 pace that would be 6:31 and I’d be at the half way mark at 2:17:30 so could then try to speed up to 6:16 and do the 2nd half in 2:12:30. Means going out without pacers though and I clearly have a problem pacing myself from my long runs. I think the 4:40 pacers mean too much catch up in the 2nd half.

Any opinions? I’m terrified of hitting the wall again at 20 miles.

And sure I know that the weather or something else could change all this anyway but hopefully it’s going to be a perfect day :-)

Kellygirl, i think you’re totally undercutting yourself! Or maybe I’m being too optimistic
Your lsrs are quicker than mine and I thinking of going out with the 4.20 pacers
Last months lsrs were..
20m @ 6.24min/km
16m @ 6.21min/km
20m @ 6.25min/km
19m @ 6.52min/km
And my half marathon was 5.69min/km

Kellygirl

BrownEyes79 wrote: »

Kellygirl, i think you’re totally undercutting yourself! Or maybe I’m being too optimistic
Your lsrs are quicker than mine and I thinking of going out with the 4.20 pacers
Last months lsrs were..
20m @ 6.24min/km
16m @ 6.21min/km
20m @ 6.25min/km
19m @ 6.52min/km
And my half marathon was 5.69min/km

Thanks a mill Browneyes but I genuinely don't think I could keep going beyond the 20 miles any faster. At those paces I have definitely struggled in the last few kilometres each run. I know I haven't been carb loading or taking as many gels as Marathon day but still think I'd be in trouble.

I actually set out to do 22 miles last week and slower and my pacing is quite erratic. Didn't help that I did something strange and pulled a muscle in my stomach at 30kms so had to run/walk the last 5.5km back to the car but I was actually trucking along quite nicely until then and I was doing the 22 miles as a test really for myself.

I'm doing 20 miles this Saturday and thinking of aiming to do it at the 4:30 marathon pace to see how I get on.

I've myself in wave 4 so have to start with the 4:30 pacers anyway - I did think of the 4:20 a couple of weeks ago until I realised I couldn't.