Moderation of trans issue and terms

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504851#Comment_123504851

Because I'm offended?

Am I allowed to be offended without revealing my medical history here?

Is that ok?

El Gato De Negocios

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504823#Comment_123504823

More misrepresentation, do you guys not get tired of making up lies to fit your agenda? I guess not, because that's all you have to lean on.

My post, nor any I've made on the subject does not dismiss transgenderism, I know trans people exist, I've met some😨😨😨😨

I referred to a specific person as a mentalist, they were a mentalist because of how they behaved on this site.

Somebody that wants to ignore science and evolution for the sake of "feelings" is dangerous and is no different to a flat earther.

All you and your ilk want is to censor people's views unless they align with your own. I've no doubt that you and the others think that it's not at all odd that Megan Fox's 3 sons are all trans, even though they are aged 12, 10 and 8. Like i said, dangerous.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123503817#Comment_123503817

Unless your mobile doesn't show spaces, they aren't identical though. The only reason you thought they were is because you were using the "transphobic" version not realising what was supposedly "transphobic" about it. So you didn't notice the thing about the space - and yet that is (allegedly) crucial.

The bigger point about that being, not that you were transphobic - of course you weren't - but that it's a minefield, where a word that's grand one month can "be transphobic" the next.

And that is typical of cult behaviour, where followers are constantly destabilised by not knowing what the right thing to say today is. The leaders of the movement are the only ones always in the know, and they use that to keep their followers docile.

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504884#Comment_123504884

well they weren’t talking about you. So you’re therefore getting offended on other people’s behalf. Specifically the poster they’re talking about.

I actually thought it was an amusing term more than offensive. Maybe you should stop looking to be offended by everything, I am sure that will help you a lot

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123503860#Comment_123503860

So maybe you'd like to apply that to the trans women in female prisons thread and explain how someone who thinks that TW, or possibly just "intact" TW, ie about 90% of TW, should be sent to a male prison while having to pretend to think that they are female?

IOW, there are times when it does add to the topic, and when it is necessary. And for those cases, we need to be able to use language accurately and in a way that everybody understands. About 30% of people in the UK think a trans woman was born female, so that won't do. Assigned male at birth, apart from being a ridiculous mouthful, is factually wrong, so contradicts my point about language being accurate.

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504817#Comment_123504817

can care about whatever it is you want to care about- it’s a matter of whether or not it’s worth worrying about I would say.

I see transgender ideology trying to erase the word woman. I don’t like it either. It needs to stop.

that’s all I’m trying to say here. We can get along. It’s not us or them. But then you’ve the other side accusing of stupid things like “denying they exist” sorry what? 🤣

the only one trying to deny existence is transgenders denying the existence of women. That’s all I ever see.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504899#Comment_123504899

Bully for you.

However calling anyone a mentalist isn't on, imo. You can't use the n word to describe one particular person, can you?

The same user just called me a groomer. Is that ok with you too? I have reported that post as I don't think that sort of bollockology should stand.

George White

The thing that fascinates me is, why did it take so long for gender realists to publicly announce that pronouns were offensive and homophobic, aside from a few outliers like Janice Raymond?

I almost think that if they'd been more vocal in 1998, then all the trans women now would have grown up believing that being called she was offensive to women, and that they would have grown up thinking it was more respectful to use their original male pronouns…

Like I know some of the people involved in the creation of Hayley Cropper in Coronation Street are very vocally sex-realist, so why was there never any talk that you know, 'yes, Hayley is played by a woman, but you know, it's offensive to women to call her 'she'…'

But then again, as little as fourteen years ago, we had a story in Coronation St, where Hayley explained that trans women and transvestites were not the same thing. That 'being born in the wrong body' wasn't the same thing as a cross-dressing fetish, because Audrey's boyfriend Marc/Marcia was a transvestite (as the characters said), a proper old school AGP-type lounging about in his dead wife's clothes. Sympathetically portrayed, but the thing is.. they said that this wasn't the same as Hayley.

I know some TERFs are like, 'we're not talking Hayley-types', but then will throw them under the bridge anyway.

Like, it's apparently offensive to call a post-op transsexual she now.

Did the internet just rewrite people's minds and thoughts, that the nuance between the two (what are often clumsily differentiated as HSTS and AGP) was erased because it was easier than constantly stating the difference?

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504925#Comment_123504925

are you now comparing N word to mentalist?

Again, a word rooted in deep historical racism vs “mentalist”.

How can you expect anyone to take you seriously when you make such outrageous comparisons in order to justify your disproportionate outrage?

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504937#Comment_123504937

It was an example.

Would it be ok to call a singular gay man, a f*ggot?

Or would it be ok to call a singular traveller, a knacker?

Your point seems to be because that person had severe mental health issues, it's ok to call them a mentalist. But it not ok to use the term more broadly than that? In fact, you found the word funny yourself.

Was that your point? Have I picked you up wrong?

They then went on to call me a groomer. I suppose that's ok in your eyes as well, as you avoided it in your reply?

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504947#Comment_123504947

did they have severe mental health issues? I wouldn’t know myself I didn’t know them that well.

You’re just assuming all sorts of things to get offended for them. It’s ridiculous.
Then you go on to compare seriously outrageous things in comparison to a very benign statement altogether.

I don’t know what world you live in where calling someone the N word or a F——T is the same as a mentalist. You’re gone stone mad.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504850#Comment_123504850

More anecdotes I'm afraid, but I'm sure I'm not the only person here who knows of a baby that was deemed one sex at the scan, and then assigned another at birth. (They thought the kid was a girl, painted the nursery pink and all, only to have a boy in the end)

That's why we use "assigned at birth". It was observed at scans to be a girl, but assigned male once born.

I don't really see the issue in using assigned male/female at birth.

OscarMIlde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504823#Comment_123504823

Are you trying to claim that acknowledging that humans are a sexually dimorphic species and that the sex of humans is observable and detectable before and at birth (apart from perhaps wome people with disorders of sexual development) is dsimissing transgenderism?

I thought transgenderism is a condition were a persons feelings regarding their gender identity did not match their biological sex, hence the trans in transgenderism. Surely the fact that a persons biological sex is a knowable and determinable entity is a prerequisite for believing that transgender people exist.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504948#Comment_123504948

Im not assuming anything, I'm reading it right there.

Calling someone with mental health issues a mentalist is at the same level as calling someone with special needs a cripple, as calling a gay person a f*g, as calling a traveller, a knacker. They're all derogatory terms.

The use of the word mentalist in that instance was intended to be derogatory. That's what I have an issue with. People using derogatory terms to describe minorities. I don't think that should be allowed on boards. It's not welcoming, it's not warm and its not inclusive.

You seem to be getting way more worked up about this than I, btw.

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504976#Comment_123504976

oh my GOD you’re still on about this? Jesus give me strength

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504986#Comment_123504986

I'm replying to you?

On a discussion forum?

What did you expect?

OscarMIlde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504958#Comment_123504958

A mistake in determining the sex of an infant during a prenatal scan does not follow that biological sex itself is not a knowable or definable entity. It just means that particular method of determining sex is not 100% accurate, and nor I believe is it claimed that it is.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504990#Comment_123504990

But that's why we use assigned female/male at birth. Because mistakes do happen.

I really don't see the harm in using AFAB/AMAB.

"It's a girl!"

"It's a boy"

Both are assigning female/male at birth.

baxterooneydoody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504849#Comment_123504849

Biological sex 

refers to the physical and physiological differences between individuals, typically categorized as male or female based on chromosomes, reproductive organs, and hormones.

A quick Google and AI comes up with that, seems fairly well explained. Even AI knows the story

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504601#Comment_123504601

The GRC as it was passed, with self declaration was absolutely NOT required by the ECHR. It went way beyond what was required. And the Denton report explains that this was a deliberate strategy by trans activists, so they could get self certification passed and then use Ireland as proof that there was no problem. Except that Barbie Kardashian came along - and even then the mainstream media did their best to ignore the problem. TBF the judge putting reporting restrictions didn't help, either. And Kardashian is not the only example, only the most blatant. The haridresser who tore the woman's hair out by the roots is another - from much of the reporting, you'd never know it was a man who attacked a woman.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123503282#Comment_123503282

I didn't make any such assumption though. I'm saying the opposite. Most men are not sex abusers, yet we don't say they can hang around in female changing rooms, because some are. Most trans woman are not sex abusers, so they should be allowed to use female changing rooms because even if NONE are (which is not the case), that will attract voyeurs and other male sex abusers who will only have to put on a dress and some lippy to pretend to be trans.

May as well get rid of single sex dressing rooms altogether in that case, because the very men who most need to be kept out of them can use the claim of being trans in order to get their kicks. The guy in the Darlington nurses case is married to a woman, and would talk to the women in the dressing room about what he was doing to get his girlfriend pregnant. Thus putting them ill at ease - which was presumably his aim.

But even if he really meant no harm, and was just tone deaf, there's no way he's a poor oppressed too-hairy lesbian. Hes a straight male. Insisting on his right to use a women's changing room.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504958#Comment_123504958

No that 's not what the word "assigned" means. If it were about possible mistakes made during a scan, the correct word would be what I said earlier, "observed" at birth. The only reason it's ever unclear on a scan is due to the technical limitations of scans, not becaue the baby's sex is unknowable.

And an amniocentesis done during a pregnancy will always have the sex as part of the results, and there's no "assigned" or even "observed" about it - that's a reliable result. And it can be done from 3 months on.

OscarMIlde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504992#Comment_123504992

No because that is not accurate, except in rare cases involving DSDs which are not relevant to a discussion regarding transgender individuals.

Peoples's sex is observed and recorded at birth not assigned. Assigned gives the entirely wrong impression,as if people were told to join queue XX or XY and they can switch queues at any point. It is not possible for people to switch biological sex, however much people with gender dysphoria wish it was.

People are neither bigoted nor transphobic for recognising that biological sex is something intrinsic to a person and something that cannot be changed.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505019#Comment_123505019

But a doctor still assigns/labels/observes and records the baby's sex at birth.

What is wrong at pointing out someone was

Assigned female at birth

Or

Observed female at birth

Or

Recorded female at birth

Or

Labelled female at birth

What is your issue with this? Is it that later on in life if that female turns out to be trans, it's some way of recognising that they were recorded one way, but it turns out to be another?

I thought you Terfs were mad at insisting that trans people should be regarded someway as their previous gender. This seems to be a way that the trans community are comfortable with.

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504992#Comment_123504992

”We” do not use those terms as they are not a description of reality. The chief matron of the UK’s largest maternity hospital a couple of years ago said in the media that almost* nobody is assigned a sex at birth and to stop using the term.
(*Intersex and hermaphroditic babies are assigned a sex, but those conditions are very rare. Such people are the only ones that can make a claim to have been assigned anything.)

AMAB/AFAB is one of these situations where people unfamiliar with actual practice decided they knew more about childbirth than people who work in obstetrics and are trying to impose new terminology.
Born male/female or natal male/female are preferred.

El Gato De Negocios

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504976#Comment_123504976

Yer like a dog with a bone 🤣🤣🤣i used the term mentalist to describe that person after YOU brought them up to support your ludicrous notion that boards is a hotbed of transphobia and the reason for their behaviour was the transphobia that was inflicted on them. Off the top of my head I can think of at least 5 other posters from boards history that I'd describe as mentalists because of how they posted. There was one poster who over the course of years spun a Web of lies about his life in America and dealing with ultra high net worth people. He was a fuckin mentalist, because of the guff he was posting.

Are you offended for him too?

OscarMIlde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505040#Comment_123505040

You know why. The why is precisely why you and other transactivists want people to use the terms AMAB and AFAB rather than biological sex or natal sex.

Because AMAN and AFAB is wooly terminology that gives the impression that sex is something arbitrary that can be altered at a later date. It cannot.

If a female later in life turns out to be trans that doesn't mean their biological sex has changed. It means their longing to be the opposite sex to which they were born is such that they seek to live their life as if they were the opposite sex. Their intrinsic biological sex has not changed however, which understandably may distress them.

Concern and comapassion for their distress however should not mean that the rest of society should have to pretend that biological sex does not exist and does not matter. Because it does exist and very much does matter..

Necro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504622#Comment_123504622

Actually, not true. There were a number of posts in the music forum last week to that effect about Metallica, of all bands. So it is still going on.

OscarMIlde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505067#Comment_123505067

No one in this thread was though Necro. That word was used in response to that poster to make them seem like a bigot who would use that term. Which is fairly nasty way of slurring the poster rather than engaging with what the poster actually said.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505040#Comment_123505040

You're using words that are not synonyms as though they were. If I observe someone stealing, and report it, I'm not "assigning" them a status of thief - they are a thief because they stole. See the difference?

Similarly, doctors don't assign the baby's sex, because it doesn't depend on their choices, only on their observations.

Even in the case of a baby with a DSD, doctors in the past may have wrongly recorded the baby's sex, but in reality, doctors mostly didn't actually get it wrong, they just didn't know how best to deal with a baby whose genitalia were deformed or ambiguous. And they didn't have chromosomal tests to identify for sure the baby's sex - but they do all have one of the two sexes all the same.

There's a reason why the DSD athletes are nearly all from poor countries with terrible healthcare who weren't examined by a properly trained medical professional. Those mistakes just don't happen in developed countries any more.

But they all have a sex, and that sex becomes clear at puberty, even if it wasn't clear before.

So assigned, recorded or labelled female at birth is simply wrong. Observed and recorded is correct - and observed on its own is also fine. But why would anyone need four words when "born female" would be enough? And the reason is because it implies that maybe the person has since become the other sex. But that's a nonsense. Nobody can change sex. No matter how much they want to.

And it's unfair on them to allow them to think so - it can send vulnerable teens down a pathway of irreversible drugs, sterility and mutilating surgery - all for a result that is almost never fully convincing anyway.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505067#Comment_123505067

Patrick Jane is so confused right now 😖

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504924#Comment_123504924

I think you're making up the "it's us or them" argument though. Who says that on here? Not me anyway.

You're using a sort of "both-sides" argument that has the fatal flaw that only one side literally has people calling to rape or decapitate those on the opposite side, or at least the women on the opposite side, while on the other side, women are saying horrendous things like "I have rights too".

Take "denying they exist" - nobody denies that people with gender dysphoria exist, and AFAIAA, nobody wants any harm to come to trans people who are just living their lives. The ONLY problems arise when women's rights come into conflict, such as the thread I started about the GRA self certification law in Ireland and whether that might prevent the Irish justice system from making the same sort of decisions as the UK Supreme court did in May.

But instead of a discussion about that, I got complaints about language, and abuse for denying that trans people existed - by which they seem to mean that by saying I don't believe that trans women are literally women I'm denying that trans women exist. I'm not more denying that than I'm denying that Catholics exist when I say I don't believe in transsubstantiation.

You don't have to believe in something yourself to know that other people do believe in it. I don't go round insulting christians by talking about sky fairies either, but I'm not prepared to promise never to say that God doesn't exist. Because whenit's relevant, I don't see why I should have to lie to make one group of people happy. I didn't even lie to my children about Santa.