Moderation of trans issue and terms

George White

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123506017#Comment_123506017

Surprisingly not all of them. (You're talking to one, ish, I am a bit disillusioned).

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505991#Comment_123505991

People are accused of "transphobia" when they acknowledge that men are not women, men are not lesbians, men cannot get pregnant, and no one is born in the wrong body.

Such accusations of "transphobia" are attempts to silence the truth.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123506017#Comment_123506017

Thanks for the laugh. See you at the Pride Parade 😎 🌈

George White

Yes, from my experience, you have people talking about the trans cult (which while there are factions that are cult-like certainly), then the same people having a devotion to JK Rowling that reminds one of the loons who thought Princess Diana was the Second Coming.

I believe too many people codify trans kids as a thing. I believe boys should be allowed to wear dresses and have long hair (after all, this was once the norm), but I feel there's a certain kind of crowd who seem rather too invested in trans kids, in a kind of MiniPops way. But at the same time, I'm not Stella O'Malley, saying we need to force these kids out of presenting femme.

But the whole world of kiddy drag freaks me out. All too much a bit Frank Reynolds' Little Beauties for my liking.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505855#Comment_123505855

My friend is a married woman, her wife was the birthing parent, she is still a mother. They both are.

Not arguing with you, just pointing out how it can be used

OscarMIlde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505991#Comment_123505991

So you think transmen are not biologically women?

I thought transmen were biologically female people who identify as men and adopt the gender identity of men. Which is why they are termed transmen as their gender identification does not align with their biological sex.

Only biological women can become pregnant.

Medical terminology should be clear and unambiguous.

If transpeople opt to adopt a different gender identity to their biological sex they need to understand that their biological sex has not changed. Thus a transman can become pregnant. A transwoman can develop prostate cancer. Their biological sex should be known to medical staff and diagnostic staff treating them in order to correctly diagnose and treat them.

Normal limits of reference levels of markers in routine blood levels can differ markedly between the sexes. Heart attack symptoms in women vary markedly from that of men.

Transmen and transwomen NEED to acknowledge their biological sex for proper medical care as it cannot be altered

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123506038#Comment_123506038

Not accused of. ARE.

Just to refresh your memory:

Transphobia is a rejection of trans identity and a refusal to acknowledge that it could possibly be real or valid.

But thanks for nailing your colours to the post, for all to see.

Raichų

🥱🥱🥱

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505855#Comment_123505855

Fire away Raichu, but before you do, I think it's only fair to point out that you were earlier questioning how often Oscar might find themselves in circumstances where they would have to share a space with a biological male, suggesting they were concerned over nothing. How often do you imagine you'd find yourself in circumstances where you're confronted with a person who is pregnant who would prefer you address them as 'Mr.'? Not to belittle your indignation, but I would suggest the probability is even less likely than the scenario in which Oscar is far more likely to find themselves! 🤔

FWIW, I do understand your frustration, it peeves me off no end that my son thinks it's heeelarious altogether that I only find out later he's filled out application forms for me with 'Mrs.' I've told him it ain't fcuking funny, he doesn't give a shít. We need to work on that 😒

Claims of erasing the term mother btw are hyperbolic in the extreme. There is no 'we' trying to erase the term mother, it's simply recognition of the fact that there are people who do not wish to be referred to as women, who maintain the ability to become pregnant. They don't need to justify their decision in doing so to anyone, but it does make a change from a time when they were forced to undergo compulsory sterilisation in order to be recognised in law as their preferred gender. Thankfully the ECHR in 2017 ensured it is far less likely to happen in the future -

The recent ruling of the European Court of Human Rights in A.P., Garçon and Nicot v. France [2017] (Nos . 79885/12 , 52471/13 and 52596/130) constitutes an important decision for trans1) rights in many ways. The ECtHR determined that France’s requirement of sterilisation, applying to persons wishing to legally change their names and gender on their birth certificate to reflect their gender identity, is a violation of the right to privacy under Article 8 of the European Convention of Human Rights. The case was the result of three joined applications contesting various provisions of French law regarding changes of one’s legal gender.

Stopping forced sterilisation is not enough – the limitations of the recent ECHR judgement on trans rights

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505804#Comment_123505804

Who do you need to emphasise those specific words? It makes zero sense.

As for the use of the term, it's very existence offends a lot of people.

Whether you chose to use it to refer to yourself or not doesn't make it any less offensive surely?

I know people tend to just get on with it.

I do feel for people who are having issues around who and indeed what they are. But I do think there is some level or social contagion that has happened over the last number of years. I don't believe there's any issues having genuine conversations around science and societal issues around this kind of thing and those conversations can be done in a respectful way.

However then you get the very outspoken who don't seem to want to give an inch on their views.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123506124#Comment_123506124

Because clearly some indication of emphasis is needed in text, for some people and putting a word in quotes does that. (And even then, it's not enough). In face to face conversations a facial expression or voice can carry emphasis for you.

The term "cisgender" has existed for over 20 years now and "cis" relates back to latin, going back as far as the early 1900s, I believe. (See what I did there with the quotes?)

As mentioned previously, I did not create the terms.

George White

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123506101#Comment_123506101

And even trans people can be transphobic.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505693#Comment_123505693

Just on that whole cis stuff , and other terms like it used to try and dilute biological facts.

In reality, the vast majority of people are not Trans - ergo the norm is that these people are indeed exactly what they appear to be, and in fact, are.

This makes being Trans exceptional. To be clear, this is not a negative exception by default at all, but it is a minority state of being vs the rest of the population.

That is not hurtful by the way - that is the reality. We really can do without this notion of allowing people to remonstrate loudly over actual facts because they don't like that it conflicts with their ideology - maybe an addition to my suggestions above.

Me, I'm a biological man who is therefore a man. No cis, no other ideologically-led terminology to try and diminish or muddy that. Just a man, and contrary to some opinions, that's just as acceptable too.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123506169#Comment_123506169

I agree.

Being a part of the LGBTQ community does not automatically mean acceptance of all other parts of the LGBTQ community.

I guess they need to work on that, too.

Hamsterchops

But what precisely is transphobic though?

It seems to be certain words and descriptions that are deemed transphobic by those who believe in such stuff. I refer to those who claim they were "assigned" a sex at birth. Being born in the wrong body is another one of their beliefs, neither of which has any basis in science or biology. Having a gender identity is just a belief (which is fine) as long as I don't have to go along with it.

Curious, am I being transphobic by stating the above?

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123506154#Comment_123506154

I still don't understand why you'd chose to do it with a word like science in that context.

Most of the English language can trace it's roots to Latin I believe.

And whether a term is old or new doesn't really change whether some people are offended by it or not.

The very existence, as I've said, of some terms people find offensive.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505866#Comment_123505866

So you're denying the existence of trans men?

Quelle surprise.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123506247#Comment_123506247

I think it only matters if you place any value in the opinions of those who throw such terms around in the first place.

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123506277#Comment_123506277

no, I’m saying men can’t give birth.

You are free to take whatever interpretation or offence you want from that, seeing as that’s all you are capable of.

Taking offence and being wrong. Carry on don’t mind me. You can just leave me out of any of your future ranting and raving.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123506247#Comment_123506247

"Do your own research". It's not like there aren't thousands of resources on the subject online.

But based on your post history that I'm familiar with, and how you chose to qualify the above post, I doubt you'll come to any acceptance, any time soon.

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123506247#Comment_123506247

probably. I’ve been told it’s transphobic if you wouldn’t date someone that’s transgender.

Interesting take I must admit but fair enough.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123506253#Comment_123506253

Fair enough.

You asked and I answered.

I'm not going to tie myself up in knots trying to make it any clearer for you.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123506219#Comment_123506219

Why do you think being described as a cisgender male diminishes or muddies you being a man?

If you're white, do you feel the same way about being described as Caucasian?

Cisgender male just means you're a man who's gender matches your sex. I have no idea how that could be construed as diminishing you in anyway as a man?

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123506287#Comment_123506287

Well, no. I won't, but thanks for the offer.

Trans MEN can give birth

Trans MEN are not women.

Trans MEN were born female, but are not women.

You disagree with all of that, so tell me. If Trans MEN exist, what makes someone a trans man?

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123506308#Comment_123506308

What makes someone a woman?

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123506321#Comment_123506321

What makes someone a cisgender woman?

nullzero

Everything said here that isn't full square behind the trans activism point of view is taken way out of context and used as a means of character assassination of the poster they're quoting.

Why would any discussion site want to facilitate the type of insane, ultra aggressive emotive waffle being argued for on this topic?

Abuse of trans people is already not tolerated. That's enough for a site that allows discussion of topics like this.

Anything like what's being proposed is just prioritising the opinions of the minority because they're a rabble likely to make noises about the site being institutionally transphobic or some nonsense elsewhere online.

It's telling that a number of people posting here are dyed in the wool ultra left wing activist types (as evidenced by their posting history).

We wouldn't entertain ultra right wing activists attempting to set the agenda on boards so why are we allowing this crowd to do so?

This is the thin edge of the wedge, agree to this and you'll be agreeing to everything these people demand going forward.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123506305#Comment_123506305

I've already explained it above. There is no need or valid reason to add in ideologically-led terms to what is a universal concept unless it is a precursor to then adding in other terms to try and suggest that a biological woman really can be a man.

To be very blunt - they can't. It's that simple. They can feel that they are, and they can ask that their preferred identity is considered and hopefully it is by most around them, but feeling something isn't the same as being that thing.

Again this is not hurtful or unfair. It's the facts/reality of the situation, and feelings/ideology just can't change that.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123506332#Comment_123506332

So do you think trans men/women are basically drag queen/kings that take it to the next level?

Hamsterchops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123506288#Comment_123506288

Thank you. Yes it seems like I'm in my biological bunker and you are in ideological bunker. Shame we can't meet in the middle though.

The Sandie Peggie case coming up in July (involving NHS Fife) should be very interesting, whichever way it goes.