Moderation of trans issue and terms

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505570#Comment_123505570

No I think it's like priests and child abuse: most priests were not sex abusers, but it's obvious that some men because priests because they knew it would give them opportunities to abuse. Not because they had a religious vocation.

And since abusers were prepared to go to the bother of becoming a priest for that reason, then the same risk applies anywhere that a category of men are given an automatic exemption from the usual boundaries that men are expected to respect.

So, if anyone who declares themselves to be a trans woman is given access to female changing room, sports etc that other men aren't, then that will clearly attract men who want to abuse.

It's worse than naive to think that won't happen.

However if they are not granted this magical "TW can't be abusers" exemption, and if their legal protections are limited to actual protection such as not losing their jobs, not being beaten up etc, then that won't happen. Because would-be abusers would gain no particular advantage from falsely claiming that they were trans, so there'd be no reason for them to do so.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505390#Comment_123505390

If the vast majority of assaults are in segregated changing areas (say for the purpose of illustration 90%), but between 95% and 99% of all changeing areas are segregated, what does this demonstrate?
Go figure

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505535#Comment_123505535

Why are you putting science in quotes?

How do you see it being weaponised?

Many people are offended by the cisgender term yet it continues to be used across the board. You'll claim it's a scientific term no doubt and turn the logic back on me.

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505535#Comment_123505535

ah sorry but you’re talking shite when you say hospitals didn’t offer routine scans to people as little as a decade ago?

My partner was first pregnant 11 years ago and we had several routine scans (I believe 12, 16 & 20 odd weeks)

My sister was first pregnant over 15 years ago and the same story.

Even my mother who was pregnant with me over 30 years ago had routine scans to check the baby’s development and make sure they were OK.

So you’re just taking your experience and making it the standard. Stop doing that.

George White

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505623#Comment_123505623

Certainly, transgenderism has become an excuse for abusers to get away. And I feel the trans community isn't doing enough to call this out.

A friend of mine who is a trans woman has been working on a film script about this, which is about a cross-dressing serial killer/rapist and the trans woman who gets mistaken as said deviant. I really hope it gets made, because it sounds like a film for our time.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505693#Comment_123505693

"quotes" = "emphasis".

And if you'd read the full thread, you'd already know that I have addressed the use of the term "cisgender" already.

But for your benefit, I'll repeat myself. I am aware there are people who are offended by use of the term "cisgender", so I only use it when/if making direct reference to myself. You see, once I learned that some people were offended by it, I made a conscious decision to never use towards anyone else to avoid causing offence to them - and that happened long before this thread.

See, it's not actually that hard to minimise the risk of causing offence, if you put some effort into it.

But asking others to consider doing the same, results in accusations of (a) forcing beliefs on people, (b) telling people what words to use, (c) behaving like a cult member, (d) being a dangerous individual, (e) indoctrination, and (f) denying "science"? All of which I've been accused of on this thread (though not by you). There is probably more I forget.

LOL, it would be funny if it wasn't so ludicrous.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505623#Comment_123505623

I think this is pearl clutching bull, tbh.

How many cases of transgender women abusing women in changing rooms have there been over the last 10, 20, 30 years?

And put that figure against the amount of assaults women suffer from. The figure will be in the less than 1% range, I would imagine.

Like was suggested before, the only way to guarantee women's safety from abuse from men is to simply constrict ALL men's movements and whereabouts.

You are picking on an incredibly small percentage of the population.

I believe Raichu asked you how many times you've had to share a changing room with a trans woman. What was your answer? Zero?

Again, it's a teeny tiny minority that people like you, are feeling empowered to pick on.

How many men have changed their gender just to win at sport, professionally? I presume they would change back after retirement? That should be easy enough to find out. I have a feeling the answer would again be in the single digits.

George White

With me, it's not that I think the term cisgender is offensive, moreso that I think it's a barrier to true gender fluidity. That gender nonconformity shouldn't be cordoned off for a few, it should be for the many.

If we want gender abolition, if we want men in dresses and long hair (whilst still identifying as men) to become commonplace, then a phrase like cisgender to me makes that abnormal rather than normal.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505712#Comment_123505712

And also, not knowing the baby's sex before it's born doesn't change the fact that its sex is real and identifiable long before birth. An amniocentesis will tell you with absolute certainty what its sexis from 12 weeks.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505814#Comment_123505814

Yes I agree with that: transgenderism actually "locks in" the whole stereotype of what a woman or a man is. Instead of saying that it's perfectly fine for men to wear dresses and have long hair (like lots of young men in the 70s) and for nobody to question that, instead it seems to be about making a big thing about it - that they're not "really" men if they don't follow certain codes of dress and behaviour.

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505820#Comment_123505820

Yeah, but don’t tell them that sex is actually determined by the sperm & is formed at conception.

Eggs always carry X chromosome & sperm either X or Y. If XX girl it YX it’s a boy. This happens before you even know you’re pregnant in fact, so that’s how little human input has on the matter.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505626#Comment_123505626

No, the vast majority of assaults are in non segregated areas, about 90%, even though the majority of changing areas are segregated.

Of 134 complaints over 2017-2018, 120 reported incidents took place in gender-neutral changing rooms and just 14 were in single-sex changing areas.

So what do you think that says about the relative safety for women of non-segregated changing areas?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505552#Comment_123505552

And other people are under no obligation to go along with that unless they can prove it.

Ohh that's not quite true. I can think of numerous circumstances where other people are required to go along with something without the individual having to prove anything, let alone produce a certificate to every jackass who questions their identity. In the circumstances where an illegal immigrant is at risk of being expelled from the US, there's nothing to prevent them from identifying as American, however it could become necessary for them to provide documentation to confirm their legal status, much like a GRC might be required to confirm a person's legal status.

Because without it, they would not have the same legal protection as I do, and I don't need a GRC, in the same way as the State recognises the right of children to receive an education in a Catholic school without taking part in religious instruction, children don't need to produce a certificate to prove that they're not Catholic. The school has an obligation to respect the child's rights (or as you put it - go along with it), without the child having to prove anything.

It's why the Judge in Maya Forstater's case reminded her that her beliefs are not a free-for-all, that she could still be compelled to treat other people with dignity and respect, even if she disagreed with their beliefs. That was the effect of establishing gender-critical beliefs as a protected characteristic in UK employment law, and there are plenty of other examples where people can be compelled to 'go along with it' -

What’s happening in the UK?

In the case of Rose Taylor v Jaguar Land Rover Ltd (Case No 1304471/2018), the tribunal found that a gender fluid/non-binary employee was discriminated on the grounds of gender reassignment. Ms Taylor, who usually dressed in women’s clothing, was subjected to insults and abusive jokes at work and did not receive managerial support. Her claims for gender reassignment discrimination, harassment and victimisation were successful, and she was awarded £180,000 in compensation.

In the recent case of AB v Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames (Case No:2303616/2021), the tribunal held that an employer which failed repeatedly to update its records to refer to the employee’s post-transition name (“deadnaming”) had subjected her to direct gender reassignment discrimination. Indeed, the tribunal found that despite the employer being given a number of months’ notice of her intended transition, the employee had suffered a “long and painful struggle” to change her name on the employer’s records and systems, a process which took over two years from her transition.

And for the purposes of Maternity Acts and Work Life Balance and Miscellaneous Provisions Act in Irish law, a GRC is required if the person wishes to be protected from what could amount to unlawful discrimination -

Since 3 July 2023, all the rights and protections outlined below also apply to transgender men who are pregnant or have given birth. You must have a gender recognition certificate, in accordance with the Gender Recognition Act 2015.

Incidentally, in tragic circumstances -

Fathers can take maternity leave if the mother or birthing parent dies within 40 weeks of the birth. If they die within 24 weeks of the birth, he can choose to take the 16 weeks’ additional maternity leave. If the mother or birthing parent dies more than 24 weeks after the birth, the father can take maternity leave up until 40 weeks after the birth. The leave starts within 7 days of the mother or birthing parent’s death.

Maternity leave

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505845#Comment_123505845

sorry- can I just point out exactly what pisses me off.

“Birthing parent”

So the mother? Because you can’t give birth unless you’re a woman. There’s no other way to give birth than be a woman. That’s the end of it. Why are we trying to erase the term mother?

Raichų

”the mother or birthing parent”

what the Jaysus does that even mean?

George White

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505836#Comment_123505836

Like I'm not saying trans men and trans women don't exist (they do), but I feel that people feel you have to be part of the alphabet soup to be gender-fluid (without being 'genderfluid', or gender-fluid without the capitals).

I remember that in the early 2010s, there was a whole gulf of male models who presented female but still used male names and pronouns. Almost all of them are now trans women (one of them, Andreja Pejic it turned had been undergoing HRT and was transitioning when she was found by a model scout, and had paused the transition).

That there felt there was going to be this wave of new masculinity that would be indefinable from femininity, and instead we've gone backward. The likes of Linehan freaking out over ANY kind of gender nonconformity.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505855#Comment_123505855

Trans men can also give birth.

It is not an attempt to erase the word "mother".

If you note, it was used in addition to it, to be inclusive.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505811#Comment_123505811

Raichu didn't ask me, but the answer is NONE because I would walk out of the room in that case. No way would I share a changing room or shower with a clearly male person who's not in my family. And TBF I think most trans people are respectful of that. I genuinely think that most of these incidents are not down to "really" trans people at all, they're entitled men who are exploiting this confusion as an easy way of indulging in a bit of voyeurism.

One example is lesbian dating sites, where apparently 20-25% of those registered are male. When I was younger, that was a joke that men would make about having sex with lesbians. Now some of them feel entitled to it. And there's a woman in Australia who has actually lost a court case that banned a man from her site for women, and she now has to pay him costs, because Australian law says that men can become women.

IMO it's madness that this is where we are at - but here we are. Hence my thread about whether Irish law could cause the same problems as the Australian law, or whether the UK decision will put an end to this madness elsewhere too.

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505863#Comment_123505863

🤣🤣🤣

Men can’t give birth. Mothers give birth. Women give birth.

Unless you are Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Raichų

that’s where it goes out the window for me. I’ll call someone whatever they want and indulge them as far as they want; but when you start telling me men can give birth to babies I will just laugh at you.

I’ve never desired to get pregnant or give birth to a baby, being a man. If trans men want to be treated as men why do they also feel it’s grand to get pregnant and give birth?

They just want their cake and to eat it to it seems like.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505878#Comment_123505878

I think we're all adult enough here to know that pregnancies aren't always planned.

Please don't tell me next that you think a trans man who does become pregnant, should terminate the pregnancy "because"?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505860#Comment_123505860

Linehan is very divisive so I'm on the fence over him, BUT, it's not the case that he came at this from some extreme conservative position - quite the opposite. He was very strongly in favour of the Repeal referendum for instance, and he was very left wing politically. If you look at what happened, he was in hospital off his head on drugs after major surgery when he posted an off colour joke about trans something or other. Next thing his career was basically over.

There's no room for anything other than complete 100% acceptance from the trans lobby. Something similar is happening as we speak with that lawyer person who always supported them, who made one slight criticism and is now being piled on by absolute haters.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505863#Comment_123505863

That's because they're women.

And if you think there's no attempt to erase women, maybe this is just sheer coincidence. Coincidence number 637 though:

https://twitter.com/soniasodha/status/1928504422901874721?s=46&t=2iwAHKz1UZR0DlQyt-wLgQ

No problem mentioning men but can't say women that would be so offensive!

(Plenty of other examples of those, including the HSE that at one point had removed the word woman from its information about cervical screening, but had no problem using "men" in its prostate cancer equivalent.)

JP Liz V1

A transman did give birth but he was born a woman and had no hysterectomy when transitioning

https://news.sky.com/story/trans-man-who-gave-birth-loses-latest-appeal-to-be-known-as-his-childs-father-11980642

George White

The thing is, I have no problem with a pregnant man being called a mother, but honestly, it's cos of Red Dwarf and the whole pregnant Lister subplot that normalised this.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505949#Comment_123505949

Deliberate, open and intentional misgendering of trans men here by Volchitsa.

And some say there is "no problem" with transphobia on Boards.ie

thegame983

I don't know why anybody bothers to argue with trans activists.

They're zealots.

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123505897#Comment_123505897

I actually can’t make sense of you asking me should a man get an abortion for an unplanned pregnancy

like none of those words form a coherent sentence I can understand. Men can’t be pregnant. It’s that straightforward.

BP_RS3813

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123506017#Comment_123506017

Because the loudest one in the room with no one standing up to them will usually get their way. Its already happened in some parts and people are realising too late, trying to reverse the damage done

CatFromHue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504507#Comment_123504507

This thread, as many of the trans activist talking points are, is just tedious nonsense.

There's little difference between AMAB and biological male but one is technically correct and the other is not.

Transphobia should not be accepted or allowed on here, but being correct is not transphobic.