Moderation of trans issue and terms

El Gato De Negocios

Boards has for a long time had a rule about deliberate misgendering so is the point of this thread to add a new term ie "trans identifying male" added to what constitutes misgendering and as such make it an actionable offence?

Pretty reasonable tbh if that is indeed the intention but what has been evident across multiple threads on related subjects over the years is that there is a small but extremely vocal cohort of individuals that actively try to stifle / outright stop any topics that do not agree chapter and verse with the TRA playbook.

Like claims of rampant transphobia (but not being able to point to anything more than 1 or 2 posts).

For Petes Sake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497808#Comment_123497808

Don't know where you're going with your 'projecting your beliefs onto other posters'.

What does that even mean? That I have an opinion? Is that not allowed any more?

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497860#Comment_123497860

Because the statements in all the threads around trans people tend to violate that charter.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497867#Comment_123497867

Well, I posted a comment explaining my need for "respect for women" and you replied with

The people going on about ‘respect for women’, never make any contribution to any other aspect of what it’s like to be a woman.

Which, given that I post plenty about women's issues, and about trans issues from a feminist point of view, seems to me to be making the same mistake as both Ezeoul and Boggles (who has actually accused me of "White knighting" FFS) ie of assuming that posters here are all male and that they are either rightwing misogynists who support Conor McGregor etc, or leftwing nice progressive men who support women's causes.

My experience is that both leftwing and rightwing men can be equally misogynistic - or not. It's not a political position. It just tends to express itself in slightly different ways. But don't fool yourself that a man being prochoice etc means he is not misogynistic. If it did, Louis CK would not have turned out to be the hateful abuser he was.

I've seen it expressed as: men on the right don't bother pretending to support feminism, whereas progressive men not only claim to be feminists, but also then try to dictate what feminism is.

OscarMIlde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497788#Comment_123497788

I'm a woman. The women's changing room in the pool I go to has lockers around the walls with benches in front. It's pretty busy so at any given time there are lots of women, of allages, in various states of undress, in very close proximity. Due to the location of the lockers I frequently have to reach around/over someone getting changed to get my stuff from my locker. Other people do the same to me when I'm getting changed.

I'm completely comfortable with this, and it's a really relaxed, sometimes chatty atmosphere. I would NOT be comfortable if a biological male, however they identified, was sharing that space with me. I suspect most of the women who attend that pool would feel the same. A transwoman, regardless of their subjective feelings regarding their gender identity, is biologically male, and I would not want to share such an intimate space with them.

If such a situation were to arise, legally I'm not sure what grounds there would be for excluding a transwoman from the changing room, and I'm sure anyone who objected would be labelled a bigot or a transphobe as has happened to so many women before.

I can show transpeople respect and they deserve that. But rights of transpeople, most particularly transwomen, are being elevated above those of natal women, and I, like Volchitsa, am entitled to voice my objection to it.

Biological functions, unique to women, such as breastfeeding, being pregnant, menstruating are being ascribed more and more in official literature to 'people' rather than unique to women. While non biological, non unique items, which can be bought or assumed by either sex, such as makeup, clothing, hairstyles, demeanour are somehow emblamatic of womanhood.

The actual biological realities of being a woman, are being dismissed, minimised, or outright denied. Meanwhile gender stereotypes, many of which women have railed against and find demeaning are the real proof of womanhood according to gender doctrine. And women who object to this are labelled: transphobic, bigoted, TERF, gender critical.

The worst part for me is how many of the people who are shutting down women think of themselves as so progressive and caring. Which they are until it comes to a point were they might have to acknowledge that women are allowed have opinions about how their bodies are described, about their right to same sex spaces and same sex sports. Then all pretence of caring is dropped to silence women for having the temerity to speak up.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497913#Comment_123497913

Thanks. That's exactly it.

And for the posters who are convinced that this is just about "respect for trans people trying to live their lives", the point of this thread is to ask for there to be an automatic sanction for posting this:

A transwoman (…) is biologically male, and I would not want to share such an intimate space with them.

In other words, if @Ezeoul gets their way, you won't even be able to explain why you are unhappy about a transwoman being in the changing room.

Then they'll complain that you're just like those horrible racist women who didn't want black women in their changing rooms in the segregated south in the US.

For Petes Sake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497913#Comment_123497913

Do you really believe a trans woman is able to just go into a changing room and feel comfortable? Because that isn't the reality. They've been so demonised for merely existing that the type of stuff you're posting is what they have to deal with every day.

You're saying you can show transwomen respect, but then you blame them for 'the actual biological realities of being a woman are being dismissed, minimised or outright denied'.

People will rightly think you have an issue with trans people in general, because you just need to look around boards at the rape-deniers, victim blaming, outright mysoginistic attitudes towards how women feel on issues like period poverty, the gender pay gap and domestic or gender-based violence to see how the realities of being a woman could be dismissed, minimised or outright denied, but yet some people point the finger at transwomen, when a lot of the issues come about as a result of men.

I can completely understand the sensitivities of sharing a changing room with a transwoman, that doesn't make you a transphobe.

When you blame transpeople for 'the realities of being a woman being dismissed, minimised or outright denied', then you have only yourself to blame if people perceive you as being transphobic.

dulpit

What about trans men? Presumably they would have to use the women's changing room too in this scenario? Would you be comfortable with that?

dulpit

Oh and on the topic of feedback, I think there's 2 things at play. There are people who want to debate the rights and wrongs of transgenderism. I disagree with this (how can you debate a person's existence?) but okay. If debate is needed, so be it.

But the second thing is people deliberately misgendering, belittling and, to use the term, being a dick towards trans people.

Is it a fair ask of boards moderation to allow the former but ban the latter?

OscarMIlde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497976#Comment_123497976

There has been concerted effort into changing language in public discourse regarding biological functions that are unique to women, such as birthing people, people with cervixes, menstruating people. This is apparently done as these are no longer biological functions unique to women, as some women identify as men, but still have the biological realities of womanhood to deal with, so now we need to pretend that men can get pregnant, that men need smear tests, that men can menstruate. When everyone knows that is not true.

This denial of female biology nicely dovetails with gender identity theory that posits that male or female are ideas or feelings rather than biological realities. So now transwomen can proclaim that they are women, since female sex is being divorced from biological reality.

This language change is absolutely being driven by transactivists, and their allies.

And nice try on trying to guilt trip me and claim I'm disrespectful while calling me transphobic and sidestepping my completely valid concerns.

OscarMIlde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497996#Comment_123497996

I would be perfectly comfortable with transmen using a womens changing room.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497695#Comment_123497695

Why are us modern humans, "homo sapiens"?

Cisgender is just a term to describe people who don't identify as trans individuals.

I honest to God don't see the problem with it.

I see no difference to using cis as I would heterosexual, for example.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123496870#Comment_123496870

The fact that you think that spending millions on a census only for it to be deemed too unreliable to be considered to be "accredited official statistics" really doesn't argue well for your cause. These things do matter, even if you say they don't.

Please point out anything I said about any census ever, thanks. Or please admit to making things up that I never said.

baxterooneydoody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497976#Comment_123497976

They should feel uncomfortable as they're a biological male invading biological women and girls private spaces, if the rights of the trans community end up eroding a biological woman or girls right to safety and the safety a female changing room provides then they should be entirely uncomfortable if they make biological women and girls feel uncomfortable by their presence.

Why they'd want to be in that situation where they feel their right to feel comfortable supercedes anyone else's is perplexing imo and is in total disregard of anyone else's right.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498045#Comment_123498045

So a trans woman should use the male changing rooms?

A trans woman that may have breasts? And what about their safety? Do you think the men in the room would naturally be respectful? How would you explain to a young boy why there's a woman in the man's changing room?

Or maybe they should just never go out? Easier for everyone, wouldn't it?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498017#Comment_123498017

I have a family member who is a trans man. He has had a mastectomy and a hysterectomy. He has a beard and a hairy chest. You are telling us that you would be perfectly happy with him getting changed right beside you, and hanging over you to get to his locker?

OscarMIlde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498063#Comment_123498063

Oh god forbid a man be made uncomfortable. Maybe the men should be more kind and accepting, why is it only women who need to aquiesce and give way?

Also, why are you concerned about how a young boy feels about a woman in the mens changing room. A tranwomen biologically is a man, the presence of breasts, whether surgical or induced by hormones does not make one a woman. Why are you not concerned about what a young girl may feel about a man in the women's changing room. A biological male, not someone who identifies as male.

OscarMIlde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498083#Comment_123498083

Yes because they are biologically a woman. Sex matters.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498088#Comment_123498088

Sure.

(No one believes you).

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498092#Comment_123498092

Lots and lots of people believe and agree with the poster.

You'd call them all transphobes as well no doubt.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498088#Comment_123498088

Lol. I don't believe you. How would you know what his assigned sex at birth is?

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498098#Comment_123498098

Probably, because they probably are.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498114#Comment_123498114

So stating this:

"Yes because they are biologically a woman. Sex matters."

makes you a transphobe?

You don't believe that sex matters?

This is ultimately why these "issues" are so complex (or straight forward, depending on your standpoint).

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498121#Comment_123498121

Lol. how would they know ?

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498124#Comment_123498124

Lol??

kippy

Bowing out of this one - as the logical and scientific dissassociation always gets me drawn in but things never end well.

OscarMIlde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498063#Comment_123498063

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498092#Comment_123498092

You've really outed yourself with those two posts.

I stated my discomfort about sharing a changing room were I am nude with a biological male.

You dismissed this as insignificant compared to how a biological male who has breasts would feel in a changing room with men.

You also were concerned about how a young boy would feel changing with someone with one secondary sexual feature fo women.

But no thought to the discomfort of a young girl changing with an actual biological male.

Then insinuate I'm a liar.

No thought given to women, only men. And when a woman does give her opinion she's dishonest, just dismiss it as lies.

No believe women with you eh?

OscarMIlde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498100#Comment_123498100

I don't care whether you believe me or not. I am comfortable sharing a space were I am nude with strangers with biological women only. Not with men who I don't know.

For Petes Sake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498086#Comment_123498086

"Oh god forbid a man be made uncomfortable."

And that right there is why you would be labelled a bigot, a transphobe, a TERF, and any other names that could be thrown at you.

Horrible, horrible attitude and it negates any false statements you made about having respect for transpeople.

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497607#Comment_123497607

Can you please point out where trans people are being bashed?