Why I'll say no to a united ireland

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122038355#Comment_122038355

What would a unionist be doing in the GAA anyway, when the ethos of the organization is nationalist,

Ask Linda Erving maybe?

And on the subject of joining clubs. There are clubs I would choose not join. Unionists are not being asked or forced to join something they think is named after a 'terrorist'.

Nothing or nobody is stopping them joining Linda Erving's club or the PSNI GAA club.
Nationalists, Unionists, Catholic Protestants, Chinese Polish Ukranian get abuse from idiots.

If you let idiots set the agenda the idiot wins.

Seems to me Unionists and their allies here are so insecure they want the Irish to renounce their Irishness for fear they might be offended…ask that Unionists make concessions on their expressions of hate and abuse and you get told…'ah no, that is exempt from inclusiveness' or words to that effect, as downcow revealed earlier.

I am done with the GAA discussion.
I asked for concrete proposals on how we deal with commemorating the dead, now and going forward if there are to be new constitutional arrangements.

I am not interested in your personal feelings more in how you would propose to legislate on the issue if you think some people should not be allowed commemorate.

moon2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037198#Comment_122037198

That is unrelated to what you claimed, and unrelated to my request.

It might be worth discussing that, but first please provide a link to support your claim about the GAA, or just respond saying you were incorrect and the claim is false.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122038402#Comment_122038402

Has Linda Irvine read paragraph 2.1 of the GAA rule book, where members of the GAA "must subscribe to and undertake to further the aims and objects of the GAA"?

Is Linda Irvine comfortable to be President of a Club in an organization which has grounds named after terrorists ( most people in these islands saw the the pIRA as terrorists ), and which has banned people from membership because they worked for a certain government (security forces)?

Has Linda Irvine read the GAA Official Guide, Part 1, containing the Constitution and Rules, Chapter 1.2 says, “The Association has as its basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32-County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes.”

Has she read the preamble to the rules, where the GAA writes “Those who play its games, those who organise its activities and those who control its destinies see in the GAA a means of consolidating our Irish identity... Since she has not control over all the national territory, Ireland’s claim to nationhood is impaired.”

Has Linda Irvine read the bit at Chapter 1.8(a) in the Official Guide which says “The National Flag [ie the Irish Tricolour] should be flown at games in accordance with protocol.”

Is Linda Irvine comfortable with GAA section 1.8(b): “Where the National Anthem [ie the Soldier’s Song] precedes a game, teams shall stand to attention, facing the Flag, in a respectful manner.”

Just because Linda Irvine once came from a unionist background means little - the last few times I heard her criticise a political party it was a unionist political party she criticised. Never heard her say a bad word about those comrades who said there was "no alternative" to the pira campaign etc.

Overall, it is hard to disagree with J. Burns, the head of the GAA, who is of the opinion that those who believe the OO are sectarian must accept that the GAA are also sectarian and vice versa.

A difficult one for the good republicans to swallow, as someone else said.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122038792#Comment_122038792

Linda Irvine is a unionist.

She has repeatedly stated so.

She is also the President of a GAA club.

Miniegg

Francis Mcm - Sectarianism is purely about religion. Unionism and Republicanism are not a religion (even if most unionists are protestant and vice versa.) They are political groups.

The OO is a Protestant faith based organization. It excludes those of different religions. The rules also claim one needs to support NI remaining in Britain. So that covers both religion and politics needed to enter. in doing so it discriminates based on politics AND is sectarian. It is also v involved in NI politics.

The GAA does not discriminate against anyone based on their religion. They have a position in that they clearly favour a united Ireland (as you have posted here about 300k times). Their only similarity to the OO is that their rules list the ambition of a United Ireland, which Unionists wouldn't adhere to.

However they are non political in that they do not align with any party, nor do they in any way, from what I can see, attempt to influence government policy, even with regards to a united Ireland.

These are v v different organizations both in their rules (oo is sectarian, GAA is not), and in how active they are in politics (the OO are actively political, the GAA are not).

I have no doubt protestant GAA players mentioned have received sectarian abuse. Idiots are in every sport, the GAA is not immune to this.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037198#Comment_122037198

Why do you think the GAA felt it had to put in rules to do this?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122038935#Comment_122038935

So many inaccuracies in your post. Take your first sentence. "Sectarianism is purely about religion"

You are wrong there. According to the dictionary , sectarianism is "very strong support for the religious or political group that you are a member of". In the Irish context, people sometimes mix up the two. Look at the late Protestant FG member Billy Fox from Co. Monaghan, (murdered by the pIRA), who was once jibed in the Dail as being a "B-special", simply because he was a Protestant. That "slagging" was by two FF ministers, hence it was reported or noticed and they had to apologise. Most sectarianism is not reported / swept under the carpet.

Or ask the protestant GAA player from Co. Fermanagh (who had relations in the UDR) what jibes he got. Even here in the south many years ago I heard first hand some people slagging a (southern) Presbyterian for being a "Paisleyite".

I probably would not agree with J. Burns, head of the GAA, on many things but I applaud him for his honest opinion that those who believe the OO are sectarian must accept that the GAA are also sectarian and vice versa. A difficult one for the good republicans to swallow, as someone else said.

Of course part of the problem is that good Republicans (there are some here on Boards) do not think pIRA bombers were terrorists, who do not think chanting "uh Ah Up the Ra" in GAA clubhouses could be found offensive by some etc.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039060#Comment_122039060

Again, idiots follow every sport. Tarring a whole organization due to its idiots is not fair, and I would doubt is done in other sports...

If you are using the dictionary definition of sectarianism, fine, but most people when talking on the context of the north view sectarianism as religious discrimination.

Even if you want to take the dictionary definition, the only thing the OO and the GAA have in common is that in their rules they want NI affiliated with GB/ROI.

However, only one group is inherently exclusionary on religious grounds, and is actively involved in politics.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039141#Comment_122039141

Yes, there are idiots in every sport, but other sports do not name grounds after terrorists ( para-militaries / people who most people from these islands would see as terrorists ). Nor do other sports have rules like the GAA had and has, as already gone in to.

If you want to see what the OO and GAA have in common, it is deep community roots, especially in rural areas. As noted earlier, Jarleth Burns was asked what he would say to those from a nationalist background who consider the Orange Order to be a sectarian organisation, and he said: “I would say the same to them, that I would say to those who would say the GAA is a sectarian organisation - we have to respect all of the culture that exists in Northern Ireland."

“For an awful lot of families, the Orange Order is something that goes right through their families, wearing the sash, walking in your area, it’s important."

Burns said the GAA has “some distance to go” before it appeals to unionists.

Jarlath Burns, who began his role as the head of the GAA in February, said it was “fully understandable” why GAA does not appeal to those from a unionist background when asked if the sporting group was a “cold house” for Protestants.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037221#Comment_122037221

that doesn’t prove anything. As you remind us often it is in the rules of the orange order that their members should not be in Roman Catholic masses. we all know that practically every one of them flouts that rule. That does not make it okay to have the rule.

downcow

I see frances McM has articulated it excellently

downcow

You are now making my point for me. Even you are now comparing the GAA to the Orange order. And an excellent comparison it is 👏

downcow

I can’t improve on what frances McM wrote . If you don’t understand that, or you are simply not admitting that you do understand it, then I cannot help you.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039417#Comment_122039417

So how many Roman Catholics are in the OO?
Are the OO deeply embedded in Unionist/Loyalist politics?

Name me the last 'party political' or even partly political statement the GAA has made, if they are 'like the OO'?

And while you are at it, show us the clause/rule/sentence which says you must work for a United Ireland in the GAA rule book/constitution.

It's typical you and others are all over what it suits you in what Burns said but totally ignore what he said about naming of individual clubs. The GAA have one rule about that, there has to be 2/3rds majority.

downcow

…. And nobody is suggesting that there are not thousands of members in the GAA who are not the slightest bit interested in United ireland, as there are thousands of members of the Orange order have no interest in the reformed faith and the crown.
of course, both exist in large numbers

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039471#Comment_122039471

How many Roman Catholics are in the OO?
Are the OO deeply embedded in Unionist/Loyalist politics?

Name me the last 'party political' or even partly political statement the GAA has made, if they are 'like the OO'?

The GAA are like the OO as both are secular organisations, there the resemblance ends

And that is not the claim you made.
You claimed that  its constitution states they must work for a united ireland,

You have not backed that up.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122038792#Comment_122038792

I heard her criticise a political party it was a unionist political party she criticised.

Yes she (it's Ervine, not Irvine btw) criticised the rather extraordinary huff the TUV took over her census research where she found that 74 First World War soldiers from East Belfast spoke fluent Irish as well as English.

Belligerent Unionists like the TUV don't like it revealed that hate of being Irish and hate of the Irish language is a modern thing within Unionism.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039584#Comment_122039584

Over 200,000 men from the island of Ireland served in the British military during the First World War. If Linda Ervine claims 74 men from east Belfast spoke fluent Irish as well as fluent English, there could be numerous reasons for that, eg some of the 74 could be admin errors etc. Ervine has criticised the unionist parties over more than that. Has she found any fault with any of the "good Republicans" in SF, or that party? So I would keep an open mind on her politics; I certainly would not think of her as a typical unionist.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039714#Comment_122039714

Nothing extraordinary about the research, what was extraordinary was the reaction of one Unionist party that she dared publish her research.

Why would she need to criticise anyone? She doesn't seem to do much of that in general. I don't think she sees herself as 'political'. Of course she will be labelled political because she likes the Ga and the cupla focail.
Sad really.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039779#Comment_122039779

She can do or say whatever she wants, but the fact is Unionists are as scarce as hens teeth in the GAA. As well as being a cold house and sometimes getting "slagged", and putting up with maybe some Wolfe Tone chants of "Uh Ah Up the Ra" the odd time, a Unionist would not feel at home if he / she was to read paragraph 2.1 of the GAA rule book, where members of the GAA "must subscribe to and undertake to further the aims and objects of the GAA".

Would Unionists be comfortable to be in an organization which has grounds named after Republican terrorists ( most people in these islands saw the the pIRA as terrorists ), and which has banned people from membership because they worked for a certain government (security forces)?

What would a Unionist think after reading the GAA Official Guide, Part 1, containing the Constitution and Rules, Chapter 1.2 says, “The Association has as its basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32-County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes.”

What about the preamble to the rules, where the GAA writes “Those who play its games, those who organise its activities and those who control its destinies see in the GAA a means of consolidating our Irish identity... Since she has not control over all the national territory, Ireland’s claim to nationhood is impaired.”

Read the bit at Chapter 1.8(a) in the Official GAA Guide which says “The National Flag [ie the Irish Tricolour] should be flown at games in accordance with protocol.”

Would a Unionist be comfortable with GAA section 1.8(b): “Where the National Anthem [ie the Soldier’s Song] precedes a game, teams shall stand to attention, facing the Flag, in a respectful manner.”

As noted before, it is hard to disagree with J. Burns, the head of the GAA, who is of the opinion that those who believe the OO are sectarian must accept that the GAA are also sectarian and vice versa.

A difficult one for the good republicans to swallow, as someone else said.

In Masonic lodges, politics is never discussed, and there are some Catholic members. Jewish and Muslims are also allowed join the Freemasons. The OO is like Knights of St. Columbanus / Opus Dei etc in that they are like clubs for their own.

At least the OO has never named a property after a loyalist para-military from the troubles, or banned a group from joining because they were public servants working as police, for example. But overall I would broadly agree with the head of the GAA who drew comparisons between the GAA and OO.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039794#Comment_122039794

She can do or say whatever she wants, but the fact is Unionists are as scarce as hens teeth in the GAA

And Linda Ervine and the PSNI and previous RUC teams show, that doesn't need to be the case.

A lot of the problem is prejudice based on false perspectives and information in the Unionist community.

Look at the nonsense downcow believes about the GAA -  its constitution states they must work for a united ireland,

Utter rubbish, which Ervine and blanch's involvement shows.

And he never said any such thing as this, you are 'projecting' as I said earlier, otherwise known as making stuff up

it is hard to disagree with J. Burns, the head of the GAA, who is of the opinion that those who believe the OO are sectarian must accept that the GAA are also sectarian and vice versa.

Here is what he actually said:

Asked what he would say to those from a nationalist background who consider the Orange Order to be a sectarian organisation, he said: “I would say the same to them, that I would say to those who would say the GAA is a sectarian organisation - we have to respect all of the culture that exists in Northern Ireland.

Re; The anthem

downcow makes great hay from the work the IFA have done to attract nationalists and Catholics, and they have…..what anthem is played before NI games?
If nationalists and Catholics can accommodate, why can't Unionists?

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039714#Comment_122039714

She's 100% a Unionist through and through.

This very week she was on the panel at the RIA discussion on "Explaining Unionism"

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039963#Comment_122039963

She will be villified and attacked and undermined.
An insecure Unionism cannot tolerate that kind of openness and conciliation.

droidman123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039779#Comment_122039779

Could of been an admin error 😂😂😂

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122040176#Comment_122040176

The actual census forms they filled out themselves is the basis of the research.

Fionn1952

In fairness, I very much doubt Francis has a clue who Linda Ervine is....or indeed who her brother-in-law or husband were.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039963#Comment_122039963

She was on the panel as an advocate for the Irish language and was invited on because of that. You do not have to be a unionist to take part in that discussion, chaired by Tommy Gorman. All good debates and discussions have people from different point of view; it would be boring if everyone was the same.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122040262#Comment_122040262

Of course I knew who she is. She has been on RTE numerous times since she started promoting the Irish language so much, including 20 minutes on Tommy Tiernan's show on a Saturday evening at about 10 pm a few weeks ago. Of course we all knew of her well and her husband / family background before that. Please stop going for the player instead of the ball, you continue to let yourself down.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041911#Comment_122041911

Sure Francis, you know her so well you've repeatedly misspelled her name.

She has been involved with the Irish language since the 80s, she started teaching an Irish class when her husband was the leader of the PUP. Her entire fecking MO is that the language should not be the exclusive domain of Republicanism and reminding people of the strong history Presbyterians have with protecting the language. Hopefully you've Googled it since then and can drop your nonsense claim that she is not a Unionist.

Unfortunately I suspect you'll go for, 'copy and paste the same few paragraphs over and over for around twenty posts' instead.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122040229#Comment_122040229

Thank you for agreeing with my point. We know that over 200,000 people from the island of Ireland volunteered and served with British forces in WW1. Linda Ervine claims that 74 First World War soldiers from East Belfast spoke fluent Irish as well as English. Maybe they did, but as I said there could be a number of reasons for that. 74 out of 200,000 is a very insignificant amount. Were some of those 74 people from elsewhere eg Donegal on the way to join up? In the rush to go to war, were all the boxes on every form ticked correctly?

Think of it this way. Even today, if you google "illiteracy levels ireland", you will find that even today, well more than a century since WW1, The OECD Adult Skills Survey shows that 17.9% or about 1 in 6, Irish adults are at or below level 1 on a five level literacy scale. At this level a person may be unable to understand basic written information. 25% or 1 in 4 Irish adults score at or below level 1 for numeracy.

So more than a century ago do you really have confidence in census reports that found that 74 soldiers from East Belfast going to war were "fluent" in Irish? Maybe they just knew a "cupla focail", and ticked the box when asked to make themselves feel better or whatever ( same as some people tick the box for Irish language on the census now even though they may never have used any since school and would not be fluent). Lies, damn lies and statistics.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041961#Comment_122041961

I'd have absolutely more confidence in backed up research than a bit of handwaving from somebody who is scared of and seems ashamed of their Irishness.

Why attack and vilify this woman? What are you scared of?