Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990795#Comment_121990795

Deliberately keeping on topic, yes. The topic only arose from the claim that women don’t engage in the sort of behaviour you attempted to claim was solely ‘a masculine behaviour’, to which I provided evidence that it wasn’t solely ‘a masculine behaviour’, then you moved on to make claims about young women being harassed and targeted by men in public, couldn’t support that either, and to counter it I made the point where women and young girls are actually more likely to be in danger of being the victim of sexual violence, within the family. Then Allforit claimed if strangers had access to people’s homes, more strangers would commit sexual abuse, I pointed out the non-sequitur and explained why it wasn’t the case.

So I guess you want to get back to pointing and leering at pictures of strangers then? Cool, entirely up to you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990829#Comment_121990829

making any kind of 'safe spaces' for women in public unnecessary.

I didn’t say anything about safe spaces, I don’t care for them one way or the other. If people are comforted by the illusion of safety, I’m certainly not going to argue with them. Having worked in a women’s domestic abuse shelter the only reason I didn’t like it was because the women didn’t want to talk to the staff who were women because they felt they were being judged. I would’ve happily preferred to have stayed eating my donut and coffee than sitting in front of a woman who I felt was reading me like a book. Hate anyone poking around in my head like that tbh 😒

AllForIt

I know you didn't say anything about safe spaces that's why I put it in commas. I was being succinct thinking you'd know I what I was getting at. You could say woman toilets are safe spaces if you don't know what I am getting at. I'm hardly going to repeat back what you said exactly as that would take forever.

In the meantime I was reminded of this story

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2023/12/07/sexual-predator-is-found-guilty-of-raping-woman-after-breaking-into-her-cork-home-at-night/

So I still stand by my claim that if homes weren't private you'd have more sexual abuse coming from outsiders.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990891#Comment_121990891

I’m sorry mate, you’ve lost me on the safe spaces thing 😂 I read it again, still not sure what way I’m supposed to be reading it. I dunno, maybe it’s because I don’t care for them one way or the other. I’m aware of the argument for their necessity, but there’s a few of them in Ireland now are taking in males over 12 to keep families together and that sort of thing, coupled with the agreement with AirBnb to give families accommodation of their own, which I think is a better idea even though I despise corporate partnerships like that and think it would be far better for the State to live up to it’s commitments under the Istanbul convention, but then I’m neither a woman nor a feminist so it’s really not my thing.

Does that story not indicate to you that for sexual predators like that, it doesn’t matter whether a space is public or private? Even a ton of stories like that, and there are a ton, would say everything about how easy it is for sexual predators to have access to women and children, and they don’t have to don a dress for it either or claim to be a woman, than anything it says about strangers, who generally don’t make a habit of breaking into other people’s homes, or entering without permission in any case. Be a strange sort of a society for anyone to come downstairs in the morning and find a stranger making themselves at home! 😳

Ten of Swords

Mod - Let's get the thread back on topic, thanks

Cupoftea3000

I'm all for inclusion and that people from all genders have the right to be able to enjoy sports. When it comes to people who have gone through male puberty and then transition to female, I'm not sure if there would be a level playing field for biologically female competitors.

I grew up in Australia and during the 80's was reasonably successful running the 100 metre sprint. At the age of 15, I ran the 100 in 11.3 seconds. I didn't win on the day and I didn't have formal training like my other competitors (I played Aussie Rules in the winter and cricket and tennis in the summer). My point is that at the time, I was running times that would probably get me into the quarter finals of the ladies world championships for the 100 metres. And without formal training.

My brother-in-law, several years earlier, when he was 14 years old, ran the 100 in 10.8 seconds. The world record for the female 100 metres sprint is 10.49 seconds by Florence Griffith Joyner. As you can imagine if either of myself or my brother-in-law transitioned in our later teens or early 20's we would potentially have an unfair advantage over biologically female competitors.

I would hate to be the people deciding what is fair and what is not. You are either excluding people from competing or potentially making it unfair for others.

ceadaoin.

They are only being excluded from the female category though, on the basis that they aren't actually female, not from competing at all.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990990#Comment_121990990

Nobody is excluded.

We have two biological sexes. Sport is divided by sex. Everyone has access to sport.

A tiny minority of people argue that discrimination against women's sport should exist, but I'm not with them — for very, very obvious reasons.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991312#Comment_121991312

I don’t get it - how is it not understood that when a punch is thrown; when a javelin is thrown or when a burst of speed or power is required to win a race on land or in water - it is the physical body that is doing this, not whatever is in a person mind.

Puberty’s effect on a male body is known and no amount of female hormones will reduce lung capacity, bone strength, greater muscle mass, more red blood cells etc etc.

Female sports are for females, not men who wish to legally (not not morally) cheat.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990990#Comment_121990990

I would hate to be the people deciding what is fair and what is not. You are either excluding people from competing or potentially making it unfair for others.

Categories are about excluding those who don't fit into them though - by their very definition. I would love to participate in the female under-12 swimming category - I still see myself as a child really - so isn' it unfair to exclude me from it?

(Plus I'd smash it. Be great.)

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990990#Comment_121990990

No one is excluded from playing sports. They play in their sex based category.

greyday

Have two daughters in their twenties and both have been harassed in public, I would say it is par for the course that at some stage of your life if you are a woman that you will at some stage suffer harassement, I dont even think it is controversial to say that, and I am a male.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990131#Comment_121990131

It's worse than that - barely any of them actually believe that a trans-identifying men are women.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121993345#Comment_121993345

It’s not a question of belief, it’s a question of acknowledgement of reality. I don’t care for the identity politics nonsense that some people are tripping over themselves to find new ways to classify and organise society in accordance with their own beliefs (or indeed lack thereof), for me personally anyway it’s no more complicated than men and women. I don’t care much for the whole ‘biological male’, ‘biological female’, ‘’natal’ whatever, ‘trans’ this that and the other, or the most unusual and newest one yet ‘original female’. It’s as though a tiny minority of people are adamant to make ordinary language as convoluted as possible to satisfy themselves, like ‘sex realists’ realising that term carries with it connotations of ‘race realists’, so they have to go back to the drawing board to come up with a new term to refer to themselves 😂

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121993317#Comment_121993317

The argument was at cross purposes really. It's true that many, if not most, women will experience some form of sexual harassment or assault (SA/H) in their lifetime. It's also true that in the vast majority of those cases, the perpetrator of said SA/H will be male. It's also true that the vast majority of men will never commit any form of SA/H in their lives, and that most SA/H is perpetrated by a small group of male recidivists.

But that's always been the case. Safeguarding exists to protect women from those male recidivists (MRs), and we know that some/many of those MRs will go to any lengths to access victims. We know this more in Ireland than in most places, because it was a pretty big scandal brought to public attention when a fairly significant number of MRs were found to be embedded in various parishes, using their theological bona-fides (and the community trust afforded by them) to gain access to victims. One MR can impact many, many lives. This is why a growing number of people are against creating a special category of men who can pay a fiver and gain access to any women's spaces they want, including the single-sex locker rooms and changing rooms at sports facilities.

It's tangential to arguments about fairness, but no less relevant to debate around where and how people who believe in gender ideology and identify as transgender should access sports.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121993414#Comment_121993414

It's tangential to arguments about fairness, but no less relevant to debate around where and how people who believe in gender ideology and identify as transgender should access sports.

And you’d have an absolutely incontrovertible argument were it not for the fact that there already exists in Irish law exemptions based upon gender for sports and many other activities and aspects of Irish society where gender is a relevant characteristic. Meaning that organisations can, and do, legitimately and lawfully discriminate based upon gender.

You’d also have a cracker of an argument regarding male recidivists and access to women in sports were it not for the fact that many male recidivists in women’s sports are coaches, trainers, managers etc with unquestionable access to women who they have abused. Larry Nasar is one of the most prolific and prominent examples, and in recent Irish related news, there was this prick:

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/swimming-coach-who-filmed-girls-changing-jailed-for-three-years-1554452.html

The whole attempt to limit women’s access to sports with the purported aim of protecting women is nothing more than a load of patently transparent bigotry and prejudice couched in nonsense about protecting women when in reality it does nothing of the sort.

MilkyToast

"Some men already abuse women so **** safeguarding" is a heck of an argument.

I really should have learned to stop clicking through the block when you comment on any trans-related thread by now. Will do better.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121993744#Comment_121993744

You really should when you manage to misconstrue so badly the point being made, that it doesn’t even remotely resemble the point being made at all. For the absence of any doubt though:

Safeguarding in sports: Good Idea, in fact, great fcuking idea and more of this please, rather than the current situation where voluntary organisations involved in sports, have to have in their safeguarding policies a nominated liaison officer who deals with any disclosures before the organisation makes a report to the authorities, which is nothing more than the provision of protection for the organisation, not for the victims.

Bad Idea: Policies that do nothing for safeguarding, fairness or anything else in sports other than upholding, maintaining and promoting bigotry and prejudice in Irish society.

Also interesting is how in your previous post you referred to male recidivists, and now it’s “some men”…

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991574#Comment_121991574

Apparently, you could in Canada …

According to the competition coordinator, Wiseheart has the right to
compete in girls’ competitions under Swimming Canada’s ‘trans inclusion’
rules. He has registered himself as female and is thus treated as
female. And although the competitions he swims in consist almost
exclusively of teenage girls, this is simply a matter of convention. It
seems that, since no adult had ever tried to enter a teenagers’ race
before, there had been no need to draw up explicit rules. In other
words, Wiseheart did not even need to ‘identify’ as a 13-year-old girl
to assert his ‘right’ to enter the girls’ competition.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/01/29/why-is-a-full-grown-man-competing-against-teenage-girls-in-swimming/

mjsc1970

Jebus fuppin wept

CatFromHue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121993374#Comment_121993374

I see we're back to the race stuff again and yes some people are tripping over themselves to find new ways to classify and organise society in accordance with their own beliefs.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994557#Comment_121994557

This part really stood out:

I don’t care much for the whole ‘biological male’, ‘biological female’, ‘’natal’ whatever, ‘trans’ this that and the other, or the most unusual and newest one yet ‘original female’.

Basic denial of scientific fact. But then, nothing new from them.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994557#Comment_121994557

Ahh we’re not, Jesus, you probably don’t remember it but it was posted in the thread already, way back (the search function is shyte and frankly I can’t be arsed), but it was to do with Bev Jackson, head of LGB Alliance posted a poll on Twitter about what they should call themselves. Things went a bit awkward 😬

https://twitter.com/BevJacksonAuth/status/1749561371828670929

I’m not on Twitter and the search function is shyte there too (or maybe it’s just me if it’s happening here and on twitter, I dunno), but hopefully you get the idea. It was more to do with the coming up with convoluted terms and efforts to distinguish between themselves and others. It was like the way TERF was originally coined with positive connotations, and we all know how that’s worked out… and the same will happen with every term that people imagine is soo clever and different and distinguishes them from the people they wish to appear superior to. Except the N word… that’s still pretty much a no-no for it’s absolute out and out racist connotations 😂

Jack Daw

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/39901710/naia-essentially-bans-transgender-athletes-women-sports

"The National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics, the governing body for mostly small colleges, announced a policy Monday that all but bans transgender athletes from competing in women's sports.

The NAIA Council of Presidents approved the policy in a 20-0 vote. The NAIA, which oversees some 83,000 athletes at schools across the country, is believed to be the first college sports organization to take such a step."

This is the correct decision, transgender people and their advocates may not like it but it ensures fairness when it comes to womens sports.

Also puts pressure on the NCAA to do likewise in future.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121995225#Comment_121995225

Also puts pressure on the NCAA to do likewise in future.

It doesn’t do any such thing. They’re a tiny organisation by comparison, literally doing the same as any other organisation hoping to promote themselves by hopping on the bandwagon. Just put the figures in perspective like:

The NAIA, which oversees some 83,000 athletes at schools across the country

the NCAA, accusing the sports governing body for more than 500,000 athletes

There are some 15.3 million public high school students in the United States and a 2019 study by the CDC estimated 1.8% of them - about 275,000 - are transgender. The number of athletes within that group is much smaller; a 2017 survey by Human Rights Campaign suggested fewer than 15% of all transgender boys and transgender girls play sports.

The number of NAIA transgender athletes would be far smaller.

Bit of free advertising and publicity more than anything else tbh.




ceadaoin.

Well for such supposedly small numbers, male bodied transgender students sure seem to be disproportionately represented in girls/womens sports at the high school and college level. Strange. Its almost as if they have an advantage or something?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121995307#Comment_121995307

Just for **** ‘n’ giggles ceadaoin, the estimated percentage of transgender athletes in public high schools in the US, amounts to 0.27% of the 15.3 million public high school students.

The percentage in the private schools managed by that organisation is thought to be even less than that figure. I don’t know how you could claim they are over-represented in terms of competition in women’s sports when there’d be a few zeros behind that decimal point if I could have calculated a true figure of their representation.

Over-represented in the media in terms of their participation in women’s sports? Absolutely. Women’s sports only gets about 4% coverage of all sports (think it was about that anyway last time I checked), and with the proliferation of stories about transgender athletes in women’s sports in the last couple of years, it’s understandable you’d have formed the impression that they are wildly over-represented in women’s sports.

That’s not because they have any particular advantages over other athletes, it’s because of the media’s laser-focused attention on those athletes specifically. Women’s sports would receive fcukall coverage in the tabloid media in their absence, and things would go back to normal. Transgender athletes themselves can’t be blamed for the media’s hyper-focused attention with the phenomenon, but with increasing interest in women’s sports anyway, they’re bound to be showing up in greater numbers than expected:

https://news.osu.edu/womens-and-girls-sports-more-popular-than-you-may-think/#:~:text=Allison%20noted%20that%20there%20have,women's%20college%20basketball%20exhibition%20game.

The expected number is zero, in case there was any doubt about that. At least that’s the intent of numerous legislative efforts at State level.

El Gato De Negocios

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121995225#Comment_121995225

The fact that the vote went through unanimously says alot imo.

In other news, in their first professional fight, FTM boxer Pat Manuel was knocked out in 21 seconds of the first round.

https://www.worldboxingnews.net/2024/04/06/trans-boxer-pat-manuel-knocked-out-21-seconds/

Of course quick knockouts have happened in mens boxing matches previously but its pretty interesting that a woman competing against a professional man gets pasted in less than half a minute. Also interesting that the WBC is looking to have seperate categories for trans athletes. This is of course the most sensible option as it would provide additional safeguards for all fighters.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121995225#Comment_121995225

For want of a better phrase, the game is up with this nonsense.

Too many sporting organizations have decided against the inclusion of biological males in women's sport. It started as a trickle, now it's a wave.

This took way too long though, and too many female athletes have suffered in the meantime.

But better late than never.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121995647#Comment_121995647

The fact it took so long after a biological male - Fallon Fox - not only broke the skull of their opponent, but gloated about it on social media - is reprehensible.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121995839#Comment_121995839

When you see the quote in context, it's alarming that Fallon Fox was even allowed to compete at all.

It's utterly vile.