Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942886#Comment_121942886

This general topic has only been going one why since it started. It's only a shame it's happening so slowly.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943370#Comment_121943370

It had to go slow to be honest - so that all those things that activists said would never happen, happened.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942732#Comment_121942732

The point is that if women feel like they risk being suspended through some social media policy, by speaking out, that will have a chilling effect, and is obviously an explanation for why some of the majority of women surveyed by the BBC, did not respond to the questionnaire.

concerned_tenant

Anyone who defends, supports, or argues that biological women should suddenly allow biological men into their sporting competitions -- by definition -- consider women to be inferior to men; that women should "just step aside" and allow this interjection.

That's "their place in society", after all -- dictated by men, conveniently. Doesn't that stink of misogyny?

And that's by definition.

Their cloudy attempts to justify the unjustifiable is the same deluded nonsense we see with Putin's justification of his invasion of Ukraine. It's just stupid nonsense to do whatever they want to do. And at the most fundamental level, even the proponents of this rubbish know it too. Deep down, they know -- they know perfectly well -- what they are arguing is nonsense.

Abject, embarrassing nonsense.

Very dangerous nonsense, too, but they don't give a damn about that. They're too self-obsessed, narcissistic, only wanting to get their own way. What a surprise. They're the type of people who argue for the sake of arguing. It's pretty sad, really. We all know people like that.

In other words, nasty people will always find a cynical way to justify their own form of discrimination, however nebulous their arguments may be; however long and deranged their arguments attempt to become.

Yet these same people argue they are the most pious and just in society. Laughable.

Most people can see through it. Thank god for that, and I say that as an atheist.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943602#Comment_121943602

Riley Gaines and her team mates in their lawsuit note that they were offered. Counseling and education to accept a naked biological male (Lia Thomas) in their changing rooms 18!times a week.

Why is it always women who are expected to accept? The loss of sponsorship and college opportunities; place money in events; records and worst of all physical safety it in the contact sports.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943729#Comment_121943729

Because it's misogyny accepted as norm.

This is the fundamental evil of all ideologies -- the belief that everyone else must conform.

No matter what, everyone else must conform.

Here's my response: to hell with that.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943355#Comment_121943355

That's interesting. You are saying that a lot of what you read/support on the issue is manipulated.

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943749#Comment_121943749

I've edited my post to be more precise in what regard I specifically meant.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943355#Comment_121943355

Well that’s the obvious stuff out of the way. I mean, I don’t expect anyone would discount their own feelings on anything, nor would I expect them to, nor should they, any more than they should expect anyone else should discount their feelings. It must surely be just as obvious that other people’s feelings are as important to them as yours are to you?

I feel like I’m stating the obvious here? 😳

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943585#Comment_121943585

And yet in the 2020 survey on a similar question, the vast majority (think it was around 46%), answered “Don’t know” to the question of whether or not the rules around transgender athletes were fair, with 15% yay, 15% nay and the rest not applicable. The response rate for that survey was higher too.

EDIT: Just to correct myself, had to confirm:

22. Do you feel rules around transgender athletes are fair in your sport?

Yes: 82 (15.3%)

No: 82 (15.3%)

Don't know: 311 (57.9%)

Not applicable: 62 (11.5%)

And the response rate:

The BBC Elite British Sportswomen's Survey was sent to 1,068 women in 39 different sports and received 537 responses.

Broader range of sports, and less no responses:

The electronic survey was sent to representatives of archery, athletics, badminton, basketball, bobsleigh and skeleton, boccia, boxing, canoeing, climbing, cricket, curling, cycling, darts, equestrian, fencing, football, goalball, golf, gymnastics, hockey, horse racing, judo, motorsport, netball, rugby league, rugby union, sailing, shooting, skateboarding, short-track and figure skating, skiing and snowboarding, squash, surfing, swimming - including diving, table tennis, taekwondo, tennis, triathlon, weightlifting. The survey was anonymous.

We did not receive responses from equestrian, gymnastics, motorsport, shooting and taekwondo.

Could it be that in 2024 they smelled a great big dirty rat disguised as a benign survey and thought “Oh hell no! 😂”

Plausible as any other explanation.

Besides, the women who are speaking out, don’t strike me as the wilting wallflower type, fact I can’t think of a single woman who does, now I think of it, but maybe that says more about the women I know than making assumptions about women I don’t know 🤔

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944048#Comment_121944048

What do you mean by "a great big dirty rat"? Women would prefer not to be asked their opinions on this stuff?

Apart from being afraid to speak out, which was literally one of the questions in the survey this year, I think it's more likely that many are also conflicted about it, which could explain the "don't knows" and much of the non engagement. A lot of women are saying they are progressive and inclusive etc, but the safety and unfairness issue is staring them in the face now, even if they aren't directly affected themselves.

Even those, like the amateur women footballers in the North of England, who are directly affected and are pleading with the FA to do something about it, aren't stridently saying what actually should be done, and are at pains to point out they are inclusive and not transphobic. So, in my opinion, being afraid of the consequences of speaking out, or being genuinely conflicted about it could the two biggest reasons for women not engaging with the topic.

Patrick2010

Biological women are obviously going to lose to a team like this, they should have a trans league.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-13244359/Transgender-row-erupts-womens-football-tournament.html

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121945529#Comment_121945529

There was a women’s league I saw online earlier - Australia, Sydney I think - half the team were biologically males. Why do we bother ??

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121945529#Comment_121945529

Jesus, it's all in there, isn't it? Safety, fairness and shut-up about it.

She also alleged that some teams were told not to complain or refuse to play else they would be fined and referred to Anti-DiscriminationNSW.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121945578#Comment_121945578

No, we were told that won't happen so it must not be true.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121945626#Comment_121945626

I checked - the league was very proud of itself. Perhaps an isolated incident ?

randd1

The whole "trans women in women's sport" argument is an argument defeated by transgenderism itself.

We see so few trans-men in men's sport, and none whatsoever at what you would call at elite level, that surely it must be obvious that when it comes to sport, biology is what actually matters? And biology says quite clearly men have a distinct advantage over women in sport.

And the only reason that trans people can compete in their preferred gender (though overwhelmingly biological males in women's sports) is due to hormones and drugs. Remember when they were a bad thing in sport?

The obvious thing would be to have a trans category, where trans-men and trans-women compete alongside/against each other, and support it financially.

Destroying women's sports by throwing biological males? Total madness, and insulting to intelligence and basic common sense.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121945469#Comment_121945469

What do you mean by "a great big dirty rat"? Women would prefer not to be asked their opinions on this stuff?

Not quite. It’s because I’m speculating that they smell a rat, given the context in which they are receiving the survey, and all the context that surrounds their participation in sports, and the potential consequences of speaking out about any of it, that they’re choosing not to engage. Sort of like the way you’d have some randomer ask you “what is a woman?”, I dunno what your immediate thinking would be, but mine amounts to “Ask your mother 😒”.

I’ve no doubt it’s not the only communication elite sportswomen receive from journalists, so they’d know the form, and they’d know that receiving a survey from the BBC doesn’t in any way improve their circumstances, it’s just journalists looking for something to make an article out of it, and they did, in spite of the dismal response rate. What generates far less interest however is their other articles which have come from the same survey:

Given some research has shown puberty and the changes it brings can put young girls off continuing with sport beyond primary school, finding the right kit is crucial to helping keep girls active.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/68542035

One athlete, who is aiming to qualify for the 2028 Olympics and has won junior world titles, told BBC Sport she had "thought about" quitting sport because of cost but is "not ready to".

…

She added that the current economic climate made it "hard" to get sponsorship and that her male counterparts seemed to get more sponsorship than women "even though their achievements are the same".

…

Triathlete Laura Siddall spoke of an expectation of women's sport to "be grateful for where you are now".

"I think we can be grateful, but that doesn't mean we're satisfied," she continued.

"We are super thankful that we've made huge progress and super thankful and grateful that we are here now, but does that mean we should be settling? Because there's still a disparity."

…

Sexism offline is still a concern for sportswomen too, with almost three quarters of respondents saying they had experienced sexism in their sport.

"I'm just so shocked, I'm just on the edge of tears," one athlete told BBC Sport when recounting the time in the past few years that she had gone up on stage to receive a top award for performance and the presenter had announced it was for having the "best bum" in her sport. 

"[It was] in front of a room of all the people that I looked up to and aspired to as a young female," she said. "[I wanted to] just get it over with, just let me get off the stage. Now I know what to say. But then I definitely didn't."

https://www.bbc.com/sport/68604264.amp

There’s no doubt women are conflicted about it, they’re conflicted about a great many things when it comes to their participation in sports and competitions, and of course they’re conflicted about whether or not they should say something, precisely because they’re aware of the potential negative consequences of doing so:

But many have expressed fears over sharing their opinion publicly because of concerns they would be seen as discriminatory.

One told the BBC "your career is over" if you speak on the subject, while another said: "You can receive abuse if you support it or don't support it. Damned if you do, damned if you don't."

https://www.bbc.com/sport/68564019.amp

When has it ever been a thing that anyone, regardless of their sex or gender or sexuality or whatever else, has had the absolute freedom to voice their opinions, with the expectation that there should only be positive consequences and outcomes, and no criticism, condemnation or negative consequences? When the county players in the LGFA were protesting about the conditions in women’s sports, and comparing them to men’s sports, there was hardly a mention of it in the Irish press. There were an abundance of freelancers who could have written articles highlighting women’s experiences in sports, there still are, but the same freelancers instead are choosing to invite their audience to comment on Daniel Radcliffe’s girlfriends appearance, because Radcliffe works with a charity which gave transgender children an opportunity to speak for themselves and have their voices heard.

Can’t be having that, though I’m not going to legitimise her nonsense by telling her to ask her mother 😒

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121946182#Comment_121946182

I usually ignore your wall of text posts but decided to read all this but haven't the faintest idea what point you're making, can you give it in a one liner?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121946206#Comment_121946206

You have no idea how tempted I am to reply with “Ask your mother 😒”, because while that is essentially the point, which is what you asked for… I’d be concerned that having ignored the rest of the post, you might take it out of context and think I was being rude.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121946182#Comment_121946182

When has it ever been a thing that anyone, regardless of their sex or gender or sexuality or whatever else, has had the absolute freedom to voice their opinions, with the expectation that there should only be positive consequences and outcomes, and no criticism, condemnation or negative consequences? When the county players in the LGFA were protesting about the conditions in women’s sports, and comparing them to men’s sports, there was hardly a mention of it in the Irish press.

There's a big difference between being ignored, which is what happened for years with the LGFA and "negative consequences" to the extent of being suspended from your sport due to infringing an Orwellian "social media policy", or losing sponsorship because a campaign being waged against you through the sponsor.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948011#Comment_121948011

There’s a massive difference between a whole sport being ignored, poorly governed, poorly organised, poorly funded and the negative consequences of that for players who wish to participate in the sport under the auspices of the governing body, and the players expected to put up with those poor conditions and be grateful for the opportunity… and the negative consequences for the individual participant who sought to have the organisations policy changed in order to prevent another participant from competing in competitions organised by the governing body who are obligated to adhere to Canadian Federal Human Rights Law, and when the individual doesn’t get their own way they seek to bring the organisation and the sport into disrepute.

It’s kinda the difference between being taken advantage of, and trying to take advantage of a situation only to have it backfire, then trying to play the victim.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948120#Comment_121948120

Yet someone who is entering en event that they know they should not be in (akin to a boxer fixing the scales so s/he’s 30lbs heavier than the opponent); or taking PEDs (Lance Armstrong et al) - IS bringing the sport into disrepute!!!

They are knowingly and without shame entering a competition knowing they have more physical strength, greater lung capacity, a different shaped pelvis (better for cycling) - the list goes on.

How this cheating can be defended is baffling.

El Gato De Negocios

Because some people allow an ideology to trump everything else, biology, scientific fact and plain old common sense. It's the same as trying to argue with a religious extremist but even those individuals have the excuse of usually being indoctrinated since they were infants.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948612#Comment_121948612

I consider it self-imposed indoctrination.

It seems to be a case of, "...if the conservative right are so vehemently opposed to it, then I will wholeheartedly believe it, support it, back it -- no matter what evidence or arguments are presented against my position".

When in fact the situation is altogether different, in that the vast majority of people on either side and none, think - at the very least - that it is in equal measure unfair and irrational. Just because the conservative right think it's wrong, doesn't make it right by default. That awful phrase, "even a broken clock is right twice a day", applies here.

It will fizzle away, eventually. More sporting organizations have woken up, refusing to be bullied into submission by these intolerant, often vicious ideologues.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948510#Comment_121948510

How this cheating can be defended is baffling.

Nobody is defending cheating though?

Every organising or governing body in any sport will have their rules, and once athletes are competing within the rules, they’re not cheating. They would be cheating if they were to attempt to circumvent the rules of competition of a particular organisation, but that’s not what’s happening here. For example the International Powerlifting Federation has issued the Canadian Powerlifting Union with an ultimatum to comply with their standards, or else:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12429867/amp/canada-powerlifting-transgender-ultimatum-global-federation.html

Which led to the President of the CPU stepping down from the position, because:

IPF rules state that competitors must prove their gender identity with government-issued ID and disclose their testosterone levels, mirroring similar policies by international sports governing bodies.

Martin said in his resignation adjusting to these rules is not what he signed up for and somebody else would be better suited for the job.

'I wanted to focus on increasing budgets for refereeing and coaching, but the last year has shifted into something I can no longer do,' Martin said.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12759245/amp/President-Canadian-Powerlifting-Union-resigns-transgender-controversy.html

Entirely his prerogative, and I would say don’t let the door hit his arse on the way out. At the same time I’d be thinking the IPF can go shyte with their ultimatums, but that means athletes who are transgender who are eligible to compete in Canada may not be eligible to compete in international competitions organised by the IPF. That’s someone else’s problem, same as it’s someone else’s problem outside of Irish competition, which is what I am primarily concerned with, and not, y’know, say the Saudi Women’s Weightlifting Championships:

https://www.abouther.com/node/40286/people/leading-ladies/look%25C2%25A0%25C2%25A0%25C2%25A0first-ever-saudi-women%E2%80%99s-weightlifting-championships

They all look pleased with themselves 😂

eeepaulo

Sports Ireland have released guidance on inclusion in sport.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/other-sport/2024/0328/1440505-sport-ireland-issues-transgender-non-binary-guidance/

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950049#Comment_121950049

It says in that report:

"Our ambition is always to make sport as inclusive as possible so that everyone, regardless of their background, can reap the many benefits that participation in sport brings. We would encourage all NGBs to put a policy in place if they don't already have one."

Transgender people are already eligible to enter sport through their biological sex category, precisely because sport is divided into biological sex categories. There are no "gendered" categories of sport - no category of non-binary competition, no category of agender competition, no category of neutrois competition. Only sex-based categories.

So there is no exclusion. None to speak of. Everyone has access to sport.

What people cannot demand is a special exception to that rule. Why? Because that would be discriminatory which, ironically, is what those who believe in women's rights in sport are often accused of.

People cannot argue that sex and gender are "different" whilst at the same time using gender as a means to enter sex-based categories / spaces.

It's a very transparent and cynical sleight of hand.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950074#Comment_121950074

If my memory serves me correct Lia Thomas (when known as William) was ranked 542nd in male swimming.

As Lia and in competition with females, that rank was 1.

A recent survey showed something like 600 awards, prizes, records etc that were for females had been given/awarded to biological males. Very disturbing. No wonder girls are backing away from sports.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950203#Comment_121950203

Furthermore, if there were almost no biological advantages post-transition, Thomas would never have jumped rank that much. You would expect Thomas to be rated similar in the women's division as they were in the men's division. No massive jumps.

Second, why do we never see the same increases on the other side?

Why do we never hear about women ranking 542nd in their division, who then transition, and who then suddenly rank in the top 5 in the men's division?

It never, ever happens.

It only happens when biological males transition to enter women's sport. I think we can draw some pretty conspicuous conclusions from that.

But this discussion over advantage is a red herring, a kind of deliberate distraction.

Ultimately as I said above, sport is divided into sex-based categories. And as long as that remains true, biological males should never have a right to enter women's sport by that fact, and that fact alone.