Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

beeker1

Fuckin madness , physiology alone gives a man an advantage !

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121938799#Comment_121938799

No they asked a different question, and that only in 2020. Nothing in 2015 or 2013. Hence "better late than never".

But since you mention the 2020 question, "Do you feel rules around transgender athletes are fair in your sport?" it's noticeable how as little as only 4 years ago, how many "don't knows" there still were: Yes: 82 (15.3%), No: 82 (15.3%), while well over half were "Don't knows": 311 (57.9%)

By 2024, to the question "How comfortable do you feel about transgender athletes competing in female categories in your sport?" that had shifted to a very noticeable 70% who were "uncomfortable".

I think that's because as more female athletes have personal experience (or their friends have) they are developing an opinion on the issue. And that is almost always a negative one. That's going to increase as more women come into contact with TW in their sports. The exact opposite of the posters on here who tell women that they have no doubt "never met" a trans woman.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121938799#Comment_121938799

It can’t be concluded from their non-response that anyone was actually afraid to respond, given the survey was anonymous.

67% of those who responded said they would be uncomfortable or very uncomfortable, speaking out in public on the topic.

I can't think of any current female athletes who have spoken out against competing against trans women. The only people who are speaking out are older and retired and therefore not vulnerable to losing sponsorship etc.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121938942#Comment_121938942

Well that’s one plausible explanation, but even in the article itself they admit:

There were 143 responses to the study overall. This means that while those uncomfortable on transgender participation in elite women's categories outnumbered those comfortable by 10 to one from the respondents, the results cannot be taken as representative of how elite British sportswomen feel across the board.

And given that some sports in UK have banned TW from women’s sports, they’re unlikely to experience TW in the sport (unless they’re a coach in the closet, or a member of the management team, journalist, etc), but far more likely given they’re elite athletes, they’re competing internationally and will at some point have met a TW or two, at least, probably.

I’d never suggest anyone hadn’t any personal experience, I couldn’t possibly know. I’d take them at their word though, and far more likely in the future they’re likely to meet more outside of their sport, as the numbers increase among the population, meaning that this statistic in the footnote of the article, is only likely to increase:

According to 2021 census data, 0.1% of the population of England and Wales identified as transgender women, with the same number identifying as transgender men.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121939051#Comment_121939051

I don't know how many elite female athletes there are, but I don't suppose this was intended to cover all of them anyway. Since when does one have to poll every single member of a category to have a representative result?

If the responses about their salaries and trolling etc are valid then so are their responses on how female athletes feel about TW in their sport. Those who had no opinion on the matter had "neutral", "not applicable" or "don't wish to answer" available as options.

You can't dismiss it just because you don't like the answer. There is a very clear trend of women being more and more against having TW in female categories. That this corresponds to a period when more and more sports authorities have allowed TW into the female categories could be just a coincidence, but, you know. Probably not.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121939110#Comment_121939110

I didn’t suggest one has to poll every member of a category to have a representative result? I don’t think they could get a representative sample size for the number of women participating in sports in England even, given that according to statista.com, the figure is around 17 million women:

The number of women participating in any kind of sport or physical activity in England slightly increased in 2021/22, rising to around 17.7 million.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1024168/female-sport-physical-activity-participation-england/

The number of women in elite sports in the UK is invariably far less than that, and still they would be unlikely to be able to get a representative sample size worth any serious consideration. I’m not dismissing it just because I don’t like the answer. I’m just not interested in entertaining it as the sample size, even by their own admission, is too small to offer anything of any significance.

That’s why I agreed your explanation was plausible:

I think that's because as more female athletes have personal experience (or their friends have) they are developing an opinion on the issue. And that is almost always a negative one. That's going to increase as more women copme into contact with TW in their sports.

Either way it won’t make any difference however, as the athletes won’t be making decisions in regards to any sport. It’s the governing body of any sport which does that, and the responses to the rest of the questions when taken as a whole, give a far clearer picture of the status of women’s sports in the UK for elite women athletes, even if it is, as you point out - better late than never. The results aren’t all that different from similar results from 10 years earlier, just the comments then were more… interesting 🤨

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121939030#Comment_121939030

Yep, that’s 70% who haven’t given an opinion either way, understandable in all fairness, they’re not interested in wading into what is in all respects nothing more than a culture war being waged on social media. They’d rather not be involved, which would also explain the lack of responses to the survey regardless of the questions asked.

I’m not surprised you don’t remember Kim O’ Brien, who is neither old, nor retired, and doesn’t appear too concerned about losing sponsorship or prize money for that matter, for forfeiting the final of the European Pool Championship:

https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/other-sport/irish-pool-champion-refuses-play-32251721?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target

Riley will have to sell more of those Conservative Dad calendars if she hopes to be able to fund the prize money for all the women who forfeit games. Katie Sheldon obviously missed a trick:

https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/transgender-darts-player-who-beat-32431923?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121939686#Comment_121939686

Whoa there - if you can ascribe a reason for an absence of response, so can anyone.

Indeed, going by the responses that have been given, and the high level of fear expressed in them, there's far more evidence that women didn't reply through fear of their responses being tracked back to them somehow (eg by a mass hacking event, which is hardly unknown) than that they didn't care either way.

There's zero evidence for that.

Alternatively, they may have chosen not to respond for entirely different reasons, or may not have read as far as question 22 or 23, so that they weren't even aware that that particular question was asked at all.

chopperbyrne

The latest BBC survey also didn't discriminate by sex, so men who identify as women were possibly surveyed too.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940304#Comment_121940304

All plausible explanations volchista, though interesting to read the sports they received no response from, could indeed have been they were afraid the BBC would be hacked, again:

The electronic questionnaire was sent to representatives of archery, athletics, badminton, basketball, bobsleigh and skeleton, boccia, boxing, canoeing, climbing, cricket, curling, cycling, darts, equestrian, fencing, football, goalball, golf, gymnastics, hockey, horse racing, judo, MMA, motorsport, netball, rugby league, rugby union, sailing, shooting, skateboarding, short-track and figure skating, skiing and snowboarding, squash, surfing, swimming including diving, table tennis, taekwondo, tennis, triathlon, weightlifting. The questionnaire was anonymous. We did not receive responses from basketball, bobsleigh and skeleton, climbing, darts, horse racing, motorsport, shooting, short-track and figure skating, swimming including diving, table tennis, weightlifting.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940345#Comment_121940345

For the study, a questionnaire was sent to 615 athletes, including any applicable transgender athletes, in 28 sports.

That was probably the 11 out of the 143 respondents among 615 athletes from the 28 sports, who said they were comfortable with the idea. All the rest were either afraid to respond, or responded that they were afraid, very very afraid.

ProfessorPlum

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121939030#Comment_121939030

Well there's April Hutchinson, Canadian powerlifter who complained to her federation about transwomen competing in the women's divisions.

She got banned for two years.

https://x.com/Lea_Christina4/status/1770543896415637837?s=20

Vote4Squirrels

Delighted to see Lia Thomas will not be permitted to swim in the women’s events at the Paris Olympics. Hopefully the tide (no pun intended) may be turning.

El Gato De Negocios

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941742#Comment_121941742

Haven't they brought their case to the Court of Arbitration for sport? Thought i read that somewhere.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941767#Comment_121941767

I think there’s an appeal yes, I’m hoping CAS uphold it but we’ll see.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941334#Comment_121941334

April wasn’t banned for two years because she complained to her federation about anything. She was suspended for two years due to multiple violations of the Code of Conduct and Social Media Policy:

April Hutchinson was suspended from competing for two years by the CPU on November 7, due to multiple violations of the Code of Conduct and the Social Media Policy.

…

According to an article April Hutchinson wrote for the Daily Mail, she and Anne Andres originally met online where they became friends over their shared interest in powerlifting.

Hutchinson claims that Andres described herself as a she-boy at the time but the former wasn't aware of the implications of the word. In her words, Hutchinson only found out that Anne was a trans woman after the duo argued about trans athlete Laurel Hubbard participating in the women's category at the Tokyo Olympics.

Since then, there has been a significant hostility between the two, as Anne Andres continues to compete while April Hutchinson looks to have trans women banned from women's powerlifting.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/sports/news-canadian-powerlifter-april-hutchinson-banned-calling-transgender-competitor-biological-male-piers-morgan-show

That must have been a fairly awkward conversation 😬

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941827#Comment_121941827

April wasn’t banned for two years because she complained to her federation about anything. She was suspended for two years due to multiple violations of the Code of Conduct and Social Media Policy:

April Hutchinson was suspended from competing for two years by the CPU on November 7, due to multiple violations of the Code of Conduct and the Social Media Policy.

For speaking out?

Look what good it did for her, and why then other women are so reluctant.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941892#Comment_121941892

Nope, she wasn’t banned for speaking out about anything. She was suspended for two years due to multiple violations of the Code of Conduct and Social Media Policy. Clearly it didn’t do her any good, even being reduced to an audience with Piers Morgan. It’s probably fair to assume April isn’t aware of his history either:

https://www.reddit.com/r/clevercomebacks/comments/1akih0w/for_the_americans_who_arent_aware_piers_morgan_is/

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121939353#Comment_121939353

The number of women in elite sports in the UK is invariably far less than that, and still they would be unlikely to be able to get a representative sample size worth any serious consideration. I’m not dismissing it just because I don’t like the answer. I’m just not interested in entertaining it as the sample size, even by their own admission, is too small to offer anything of any significance.

You posted this earlier.

https://amp.smh.com.au/sport/majority-of-female-athletes-support-the-inclusion-of-transgender-women-20220419-p5aehx.html

https://bridges.monash.edu/articles/report/Evaluating_LGBTI_Inclusion_within_Sport_and_the_Pride_Cup_Initiative/12731810

The sample size was just over 500. Is that enought for us to take the survey seriously?

I noticed the Sunday Moring Herald focued on Womens Rugby. Is it possble you could get skewed results by focucing on one particulary sport? I know the person who opened this thread plays rugby and is disproportionatly popular with a certain demograpic.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941977#Comment_121941977

She wasn’t banned for speaking out about anything. She was suspended for two years due to multiple violations of the Code of Conduct and Social Media Policy.

Bit of an authoritarian whiff off that. I wonder is it possible that the violations were as a result of her speaking out against trans women in her sport?

ProfessorPlum

She wrote to the Canadian Powerlifting Union, who ignored her concerns and didn't reply to reply to her, and then banned her when she made remarks in the media. Such controversial opinions (otherwise known as facts) that biological males have a clear advantage in Powerlifting.

Her trans aquaintence (from social media) went on to break multiple Canadian women's powerlifting records.

Oh Canada!

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942100#Comment_121942100

In terms of determining whether or not women in sports are perfectly capable and rational… etc?

Takes less than two minutes to provide evidence that women are perfectly capable and rational and aren’t under any coercion whatsoever when they give their opinions which don’t correspond to yours, on this particular issue anyway

Hell even one woman giving her opinion is enough to demonstrate that much. But in a survey of 516 participants with a response rate of 95% across a range of different sports in Victoria, and another Melbourne based survey with 735 participants across a range of sports, it’s difficult to see how you read the SMH article as focused on Women’s Rugby, but it’s certainly better quality than the BBCs effort with its 25% response rate. Dog ate their emails is another plausible explanation 😒

It’s absolutely guaranteed you’d get skewed results if you focus on one particular sport, and you’re even more likely to be able to write a skewed article from bad data. That’s why while the article you linked to as evidence that rugby was popular with a certain demographic, lists a number of sports which are stereotypically associated with lesbians (I said it, you don’t have to 😂), but I’m not sure if you missed the point that the article was completely tongue-in-cheek (must… resist 😬).

But the SMH article was written from the point of view of a behavioural science researcher (he’s a social scientist, so not a scientist), and a Prof within the Education faculty at the same Uni, and you know how much time I have for Academics - they’re lovely as people, but they’d wreck your brain 😒

FWIW, the study you referenced, and the study in the article, are here for anyone else with nothing better to do:

https://au-east.erc.monash.edu.au/fpfiles/24100760/EvaluatingLGBTIInclusionwithinSportandthePrideCupInitiativefinalreport.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=e00145a6f706457aab45051570081e49&Expires=1711469241&Signature=%2FqqBkfz5BrCsYEfJCuhFEU5veUY%3D

https://9a8f3e48-7f75-4dc7-90f6-bba7116a7837.usrfiles.com/ugd/9a8f3e_d4d86ffa3f324cdc90b55bd0fc6028aa.pdf

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942192#Comment_121942192

I'm not going reading through all their policies, but it's interesting to note they were updated on 1st November last year, and she was banned on 7th November...

https://www.canadianpowerliftingunion.com/policies

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942324#Comment_121942324

it’s difficult to see how you read the SMH article as focused on Women’s Rugby, but it’s certainly better quality than the BBCs effort with its 25% response rate. Dog ate their emails is another plausible explanation 😒

Because the SMH focused on women's rugby probably.

"The findings of survey research are consistent with interviews and focus groups we conducted with women’s rugby union players in Australia, England and Canada. We found the majority of women expressed strong support for the inclusion of trans girls and women in rugby, while a minority supported exclusion."

I didn't want to mention the term lesbian because on RTE at the weekend Brendan Courtney was interviewing an actress who's on Ms Browns Boys. She's a lesbian and she spoke of her coming out experience. At the closing credits the continuity announcer said if you've been affected by anything in tonight show here's the helpline number. I didn't think in this day and age the mere mention of lesbian relationships would have people reaching for helplines, so i thought I'd leave it out.

Wibbs

That this plain as the nose on one's face nonsense is still being debated shows me just how far down the rabbit hole of avoiding the bloody obvious we are.

ceadaoin.

One of the arguments in favour of allowing trans women in women's sports, particularly at the start of this thread, has often been that there aren't enough trans women to make any measurable difference. Well...it sure seems like now, 2 years on, that they might be disproportionately represented at the top levels of many women's sports and also among high school and college athletes. Darts, golf, swimming, athletics, basketball, weightlifting, rugby, gaa, pool- you name it. I mean, what are the chances that so many trans women, who make up a tiny proportion of society, also happen be amazing athletes who can rise to the top of leagues even in what would be considered advanced age for many female athletes (for example, the 50 odd year old trans woman who was on a girl's college basketball team) ? If it's not their natural biological advantage then what is it? Maybe it's women just not trying hard enough again?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942650#Comment_121942650

Ahh you focused on one line in the article! 😳

Missed this bit, and the rest of the article:

Researchers at Monash University recently surveyed athletes from six sports (including Aussie rules football and cricket) at 12 randomly selected community sports clubs. The study found less than a quarter of women (24 per cent) believed “trans women have an unfair advantage when they play on a female sport team” whereas nearly half of men (46 per cent) believed this to be the case.

These findings are consistent with other researchconducted in 23 different sports, including team sports (e.g. soccer, netball and Aussie rules) as well as full-contact individual sports (e.g. kickboxing and taekwondo).

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942192#Comment_121942192

A bit? Surely it’s entirely authoritarian given it’s coming directly from the CPU organisation themselves, and April has posted up the letters she received from them and all.

It’s not authoritarian in the same sense as Josef Tesar claiming his 17 years of coaching experience gave him the ability to determine just by looking at them whether an athlete was a girl or a boy, or Suzanne Seddon asking her audience for their opinions on whether or not Daniel Radcliffe’s girlfriend is a woman.

It’s more along the lines of Maya Forstater’s former employer, Global Development Centre where she was employed as an on-contract tax consultant, telling her that she’s making the workplace unsafe (that particular case is a bit more complicated due to employment law in the UK), but the CPU are acting in accordance with Canadian Federal Human Rights Law.

That’s authoritarian too.

CatFromHue

This thread was started just over 2 years ago. I wonder if many people have changed their mind on things since then?

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942886#Comment_121942886

I can think of 3 that, no matter the evidence, will never change their view point.

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942683#Comment_121942683

Lets get the obvious out of the way.

You'll post links to edit (stuff ) research/surveys that supports your side of the argument and everyone else will do the same.

Both are probably manipulated to get the results they want, so I'm happy to discount all of them. I don't trust a one of them.

But I won't discount my own feeling's on what the overwhelming majority view is on the topic which to me is more obvious that the result of our most recent referendum.