Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

chopperbyrne

Please point out any post on this thread that has a poster advocating for adults harassing children at an event.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121859420#Comment_121859420

No, it is not.

You are trying to make it like that though, everyone can see that.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121861985#Comment_121861985

Feel free to delude yourself and speak for “everyone” that it’s not a trans panic but that’s exactly what it is.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121862238#Comment_121862238

There is only one of us that is deluded 😃

Keep telling yourself that this is about "trans panic" (whatever the hell that is). You are trying to shift the topic to have something to say, poor tactic.

CatFromHue

Whats a trans panic?

chopperbyrne

Something that Overheal feels he can speak for "everyone" about.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121862276#Comment_121862276

Show me the post where I said I speak for everyone thanks

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121862271#Comment_121862271

This thread for one.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121862295#Comment_121862295

Still going strong, this one. Bless.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121858748#Comment_121858748

I really feel like that picture alone doesn’t tell the full story, and it’s one is worth reading! 😁

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121861425#Comment_121861425

Nah man, can’t blame Americans for this one, happened in Canada, and all parties involved are Canadian, with grandfather and son having failed to compete in the Olympics for their respective countries (Josef Tesar - the father, couldn’t get permission to compete for Canada; his son, also Josef Tesar, failed to qualify for a place on the Czech team). I mean, there’s living vicariously through your children, but that family takes it to a whole new dimension 😂

https://pashof.ca/inductee/josef-tesar-athlete/

But the circumstances surrounding the event itself, it belongs on Ripley’s Believe It Or Not - it’s both comical and perplexing in equal measure, with a healthy dose of scepticism. Ultimately though, it’s exactly as described in that it meets the criteria as an example of the moral panic being triggered by some people’s assumptions about people who are transgender. Some choice quotes from the article include:

The man accused the 9-year-old of being a boy or transgender and demanded Starr, 47, provide a birth certificate proving her daughter was a girl, she told The Washington Post, adding that the man’s wife called her and her ex-wife — the girl’s other mother — “genital mutilators.”

…

Tesar addressed the volunteer overseeing the event but loudly enough so Starr could hear from 15 to 20 feet away. He asked if the event was girls-only, Starr said. When she replied that it was for fourth-grade girls, Tesar allegedly asked why boys were throwing, pointing at Starr’s daughter and another girl.

That’s when Starr intervened, saying something like, “Excuse me, you’re pointing at my daughter, who is a girl.”

No, the man said, according to Starr, adding: “She’s a boy.” He allegedly added that the other girl was too, causing her to run away. Starr insisted that her 9-year-old was a cisgender girl, leading the man to hold his hands up to make air quotes while saying, “all right, a ‘girl,’” according to Starr. Tesar allegedly said that, if their daughter wasn’t a boy, she was “obviously trans.”

“This event is for real girls,” he said, according to Starr.

…

Tesar’s son said his father asked for the birth certificate offhandedly as a way to defuse the situation. Plus, the son added, carrying around a birth certificate was commonplace when his father competed as an Olympic-caliber wrestler in the 1980s.

And this is the really important bit, and the reason it belongs in this discussion:

The incident didn’t happen in a vacuum, but is rather “a direct result of the propaganda and dehumanizing anti-queer, anti-trans and anti-anything [that’s] non-heterosexual, non-cisgendered,” Starr said. But her daughter and other children should not be targets of that rhetoric, she said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/06/16/9-year-old-track-transgender/

mjsc1970

https://irishgolfer.ie/latest-golf-news/2024/03/09/transgender-golfer-hailey-davidson-banned-from-womens-nxxt-tour/?mc_cid=e0d3763261&mc_eid=6150307cb1

Transgender golfer Hailey Davidson has been banned from the women’s professional golf tour, NXXT Golf after it changed its eligibility criteria to only allow biological female players to compete.

Davidson sparked backlash when she won on the circuit in January which allowed her to take a step closer to the LPGA Tour.

The NXXT Tour awards its top five players exemptions to the Epson Tour which is the second tier below the LPGA Tour.

The 30-year-old was born in Scotland but resides in Florida and she was sitting pretty in second on the Road to Epson Tour standings with 1,801 points following a win and two second place finishes after nine events.

The Tour announced on International Women’s Day that it had reversed its gender policy with immediate effect stating that players must be biological females from birth to be eligible to compete.

‘As we navigate through the evolving landscape of sports, it is crucial to uphold the competitive integrity that is the cornerstone of women’s sports,’ NXXT CEO Stuart McKinnon said.

‘Our revised policy is a reflection of our unwavering commitment to celebrating and protecting the achievements and opportunities of female athletes. Protected categories are a fundamental aspect of sports at all levels, and it is essential for our Tour to uphold these categories for biological females, ensuring a level playing field.’

‘NXXT Golf is honored to lead in promoting and advancing women’s golf, providing a platform that not only highlights the exceptional talent of women golfers worldwide but also ensures the competition remains equitable for all of our players,’ he added.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121875451#Comment_121875451

Intersex players need not apply I guess.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121875505#Comment_121875505

There's no such thing as intersex. The usual term is people with disorders of sexual development. "Intersex" is considered quite offensive these days.

That's because they are not intersex, they are male or female, with different forms of congenital disorders.

So women with a DSD are perfectly welcome in the female category, whereas males like Caster Semenya should be in the male category for their sport (which is not golf, obviously).

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121876202#Comment_121876202

There's no such thing as intersex

Except that there is. What an appalling thing to try and deny, that’s what’s offensive

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/16324-intersex

Said without evidence and dismissed with evidence.

forrestgeorge

Always liked Daly.

https://twitter.com/pgatuor/status/1748874638891888692

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121876595#Comment_121876595

LOL More US culture wars, as your link makes clear, people with DSDs are being weaponised by trans rights groups into "intersex" - in the UK (and Ireland) they fought quite a battle to stop people calling thel "intersex".

Here you go:

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/

Wikipedia can't even give a citation for the term intersex (but does say that some people find it offensive)

A common adjective for people with disorders of sex development (DSD) is "intersex".[citation needed]

A "dsd-LIFE" study in 2020 found that around 43% of 179 participants thought the term "intersex" was bad, 20% felt neutral about the term, while the rest thought the term was good.

And also this: Mauro Cabral has written that transgender people and organizations "need to stop approaching intersex issues as if they were trans issues", including use of intersex conditions and people as a means of explaining being transgender; "we can collaborate a lot with the intersex movement by making it clear how wrong that approach is."[164]

So basically, in the UK and Ireland, the term intersex is still considered reductive and even offensive. Less so apparently in the US, where it has been subsumed into trans issues - often against the wishes of people with DSD themselves. I didn't realise that, but then I don't live in the US, and this is an Irish site, so I'm not interested in US-specificities.

In Ireland, calling people intersex is generally considered offensive.

Can't find much from the HSE, but there are these two mentions:

• a disorder of sexual development, such as androgen insensitivity syndrome

Early or delayed puberty

https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/early-or-delayed-puberty/

Find out about the signs of early or delayed puberty, what can cause it and how it can be treated.

https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/early-or-delayed-puberty/ (No mention of intersex at all)

And this which uses both, but mainly DSD all the same:

The term intersex is used differently by different people. In clinical practice, it was a term previously used to describe what are now termed disorders or differences of sexual development (DSD). DSD covers a wide range of clinical conditions with a wide range of needs, all of which are very different to each other. 

https://www.hse.ie/eng/about/personalpq/pq/2022-pq-responses/april-2022/pq-20035-22-david-cullinane.pdf

Is that enough evidence for you? (It's something that's so obvious to me that I didn't think it needed links to prove it. And to be clear, I don't make stuff up. As I think I've proven a couple of times now when you've chanced your arm googling medical info.)

volchitsa

Can't find much from the HSE, but there are these two mentions:

• a disorder of sexual development, such as androgen insensitivity syndrome

https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/early-or-delayed-puberty/

https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/early-or-delayed-puberty/ (No mention of intersex at all)

And this which uses both, but mainly DSD all the same:

The term intersex is used differently by different people. In clinical practice, it was a term previously used to describe what are now termed disorders or differences of sexual development (DSD). DSD covers a wide range of clinical conditions with a wide range of needs, all of which are very different to each other. 

https://www.hse.ie/eng/about/personalpq/pq/2022-pq-responses/april-2022/pq-20035-22-david-cullinane.pdf

Is that enough evidence for you?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121876202#Comment_121876202

There's no such thing as intersex. The usual term is people with disorders of sexual development. "Intersex" is considered quite offensive these days.

The UN don’t appear to have received the memo:

https://www.ohchr.org/en/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/intersex-people

But as you made the point that this is an Irish site (seems unnecessary as we’re discussing examples from Overheal’s side of the Atlantic, but whatever), spunout.ie, should suffice I think -

https://spunout.ie/lgbti/gender-identity/frequently-questions-intersex/

https://spunout.ie/about/

The terminology used is controversial either way, with some people preferring the term ‘intersex’ over the medical terminology that describes them as people with ‘disorders of sex development’ - a catch-all term in itself which describes a range of conditions, but it’s the idea that it conveys that it suggests there is something wrong with them is the reason why people who prefer the term intersex to describe themselves prefer to do so. Depends on who you ask really:

https://www.minus18.org.au/articles/i'm-intersex:-here's-what-that-means

That's because they are not intersex, they are male or female, with different forms of congenital disorders.

So women with a DSD are perfectly welcome in the female category, whereas males like Caster Semenya should be in the male category for their sport (which is not golf, obviously).

Well that’s a bit rude 😂 But considering you’ve just pointed out they are either male or female, with different forms of congenital disorders, Caster Semenya is not a great example to demonstrate the point you’re making. She is female with a disorder of sex development, in your terms.

The issue with Caster isn’t that she isn’t permitted to compete in the female category for her sport, the issue is that in order to compete in the events she wishes to compete in, in the female category, the WA want her to take medication to lower her testosterone levels, which Caster is unwilling to do, not so unwilling to show her vagina to prove she is a woman, but thankfully that’s not necessary; the organisers have moved on from the days of forcing women to parade naked in front of officials:

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2022/may/24/caster-semenya-800m-world-athletics-hbo-interview

https://theconversation.com/ten-ethical-flaws-in-the-caster-semenya-decision-on-intersex-in-sport-116448

But should Caster decide for whatever reason to take up the sport of golf (which is not beyond the bounds of possibility - elite athletes are known for their multi-sporting achievements and interests), she would be eligible to compete and play in the top tours in the US, organised by the LPGA. They do not have an exclusionary policy regarding either intersex or transgender individuals:

https://www.lpga.com/gender-policy

She would not even need to compete in the mini-tour events organised in Florida by Stuart McKinnon, CEO and Founder of NXXT Golf, but then she also doesn’t have to pay the membership costs, one of the benefits of which is access to Dr. Bobs workshop… not nearly as ominous as it sounds 🤨

https://theconfidencedoctor.com/

https://www.nxxtwomensprotour.com/membership

Now, if I were a cynical sort, which frankly I am, I might suggest that this latest announcement from an organisation which practically nobody on Overheal’s side of the pond has ever heard of, let alone this side of the pond, might be seizing an opportunity to promote his organisation, which isn’t unheard of, but I’d be prepared to reserve judgement and give them the benefit of the doubt, if it weren’t for the fact that Stuart makes it quite clear that investment in the organisation makes good business sense. I mean, he’s not wrong, but the way he’s chosen to go about promoting the organisation is shady as shìt:

Stuart McKinnon, CEO of NXXT Golf, captures the sentiment succinctly: “The evidence is clear. Partnering with women athletes isn’t just a matter of fairness—it’s a savvy business move. At NXXT Golf, we understand the unique value and immense potential of women’s sports. It’s high time the industry recognizes the unmatched ROI that comes with supporting and sponsoring these incredible athletes.”

https://www.nxxtwomensprotour.com/post/unlocking-value-with-women-s-sports-why-sponsoring-nxxt-golf-delivers-unmatched-roi

One hardly needed a study to know that much, but here it is anyway, seeing as you can’t make a point around here without being asked for evidence to support it:

https://www.rbcwealthmanagement.com/assets/wp-content/uploads/documents/general/the-new-economy-of-sports-part-1.pdf

On these particular points, the study isn’t wrong -

The RBC Wasserman study found that women athletes:

• Engage with a younger, more affluent, and better-educated audience.
• Drive social media interaction at twice the rate of male athletes.
• Propel brand content to outperform brand-owned channels by at least 4 times.

Furthermore, brands that align themselves with women athletes bask in enhanced perception, being seen as 14% more inspiring and a whopping 43% more inclusive.

One only need observe the phenomenon that is an amateur golfer who hopes to turn pro in the future, Grace Charis, who’s been whipping up something of a storm on social media for… ehh, various reasons, including her golfing ability, of course 🤨

https://youtu.be/U0W6PAWiP7s?si=dH60PzkOs_9F65yL

Grace however, unlike Stuart, isn’t motivated by money:

Beyond growing her game and her business empire, Grace ultimately hopes to inspire more girls and women to get into the sport.

"While I am grateful for the opportunities and income that come with being a golfer and influencer, I believe that success is about more than just financial gain," she adds. 

"For me, it's about setting and achieving personal goals, inspiring others, and leaving a positive impact on the sport and the world.

"I love being able to share my love for the game with others and inspire more girls and women to get into golf."

https://www.the-sun.com/sport/8141113/grace-charis-golf-influencer-paige-spiranac/amp/

volchitsa

Spunout?

An activist group weaponising people with DSD to pretend that women can have penises.

Youve just illustrated my point above.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121877868#Comment_121877868

Yeah can’t say I’m a fan of their output either, but that’s beside the point, which was that contrary to your opinion that intersex is not a commonly used term in Ireland, or that it has anything to do with where Overheal is situated, it’s far more commonly used than the medical terminology is used which refers to the same concept in a medical context.

I wasn’t even going to mention that the source you used, the HSE website, also uses the term ‘people with a cervix’, and that’s not a term used too often either, if your argument is based on the idea that you’re correct and the concept of intersex doesn’t exist because it’s not in common usage and some people who are intersex are offended by the use of the term. You cited the Wikipedia article so I have no doubt you also read in the same article that far more people who are intersex are offended by the terminology which refers to them as having disorders of sex development.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121877879#Comment_121877879

I've already said that the HSE is far too captured as well, but you're still making my point: DSD is NOT the same as transgender, and is not related to gender identity or gender dysphoria, and it is merely weaponising people with DSD to try to conflate them.

Gamergurll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121875505#Comment_121875505

This sort of comment really takes away from the seriousness of your argument, you know well this decision is nothing to do with intersex people

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121878749#Comment_121878749

Except their decision is clear that only players who were born women can apply. That would exclude intersex persons who were born intersex. Don’t know how that “takes away the seriousness” that seems like a very unserious thing to smear me with.

chopperbyrne

DSD (Intersex) conditions are still either male or female specific.

They'll still be XX (or a variation of), or XY (or a variation of), and is completely unrelated to someone who has a trans identity.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121878519#Comment_121878519

I’m not making your point at all, you invalidated that argument all on your own when you referred to a woman with a vagina as being male. It shouldn’t be a stretch of the imagination for you to conceptualise women with penises, seeing as you’ve already made the argument that a person with a vagina is male.

On the other hand, I’ve never made the argument that DSD is the same as transgender, I know it’s not, they’re completely separate conditions, and the conflation arose long before the recent culture wars. It arose when Harry Benjamin, a German sexologist, literally wrote the book called “The phenomenon of transsexualism”, “The Transsexual Phenomenon”, based upon his research of both intersex and transsexual conditions and the intersection between them where they overlap.

It’s going to be helpful in your rebuttal in the other ongoing discussion to point out that WPATH changed its name from ‘The Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association’ in 2006 to distance itself from the medical pathologisation of transgender healthcare, although in making that point, it will conflict with your attempt to suggest that people with DSD is the more common nomenclature to refer to people who are intersex, when organisations representing people who are intersex have already pointed out in the development of the WPATH Standards of Care 8th Edition, that WPATH has no standing to represent people who are intersex, let alone refer to them using medical terminology which they have sought to distance themselves from in the same manner as WPATH have attempted to do some 20 years ago by renaming the organisation:

The nomenclature used in this chapter is idiosyncratic, evident in some works by Meyer-Bahlburg (e.g. 2019), but not otherwise used in English-speaking contexts. “Physical intersexuality” presumes the existence or validity of other forms of intersex, which should not be taken as granted, particularly when the use of the term intersex as a gender identity label is at odds with all available evidence suggesting that most people with intersex variations have female or male identities (including both cisgender and transgender women and men with intersex variations), and at odds with respect for that diversity. 

Standard definitions of the word intersex (promulgated by the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (2019) and other institutions) use the term to refer only to physical characteristics. An intent of the use of the term “physical intersexuality” while also referring to “DSDs” appears to be an attempt to narrow the meaning of the term intersex, and maintain the relevance of widely opposed and non-neutral language of “disorders of sex development”. Indeed, in a context where current medical practices (such as early genital surgeries) are highly contested and the subject of attention by human rights institutions, disputes around nomenclature appear to have the intent of maintaining current medical practices as far as possible. The nomenclature has the effect of narrowing the scope of the chapter. 

Lacking a foundational relationship with the intersex human rights and peer and family support movements, and lacking broad expertise on intersex health (as indicated in statement 2), WPATH does not have the standing to propose novel terminology, nor make recommendations beyond those affecting the health of gender diverse people.

https://ihra.org.au/39498/submission-wpath-soc8-2021/

That’s 2021 btw, 3 years before the recent attempt by some people who are opposed to certain aspects of transgender healthcare to suggest there’s something stinks about WPATH on the basis that it’s an advocacy organisation of medical professionals with a vested interest in promoting transgender healthcare on their terms. It’s not any different to WA (formerly IAAF) demanding that intersex athletes must take medication to lower their testosterone levels in order to meet an idealised standard which isn’t normally found in nature. It’s unethical on so many levels, not the least of which is that it allows some people to dehumanise others by referring to them as males even though they themselves refer to themselves as women.

You’re in a poor position to point fingers at the HSE when it makes a balls of what’s called ‘people first language’ in order to refer to men with a cervix, because as a public healthcare organisation it’s not that they’ve been ‘captured’ by anyone, it’s that they are providing a healthcare service to the public which mandates informing the public about healthcare! Had they actually used the same terminology as the NHS whom you also cited already in relation to intersex conditions, they might have avoided causing offence to people who took issue with the language used. This is the way the NHS frames information about screening for cervical cancer:

Trans men and non-binary people who have had a total hysterectomy to remove their cervix do not need cervical screening.

Trans men and non-binary people who still have a cervix should have cervical screening to help prevent cervical cancer.

If you're a trans man, or non-binary and assigned female at birth, and you're registered with your GP as female, you'll receive invitations for cervical screening:

• every 3 years at ages 25 to 49
• every 5 years at ages 50 to 64

If you're a trans man registered with a GP as male, you will not receive automatic invitations. You can still have cervical screening. You'll need to ask your GP practice for an appointment.

If you’re a trans woman or non-binary person assigned male at birth, you do not need cervical screening as you do not have a cervix.

https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-questions/sexual-health/should-trans-men-have-cervical-screening-tests

This way they also include people with uterus didelphys, which can cause them to have not just one, but two cervices - rare, but beneficial to be aware of the condition all the same, understanding that there’s nothing wrong with the person which requires medical intervention to ‘fix’ what is characterised in a medical context as a disorder of sex development:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uterus_didelphys

greyday

Has the NHS stopped puberty blockers being administered to Children?

Vote4Squirrels

It shouldn't require saying but no one is "assigned" a sex at birth - their sex is observed post conception usually around 18 weeks or occasionally earlier if a private scan is paid for (generally 12 weeks gestation the sex can be observed).

plodder

BBC survey of elite female sports women

Anonymous questionnaire sent to over 600 women. Only 143 responded with a ten to one ratio of women feeling "uncomfortable" or "very uncomfortable" competing against trans women, as compared with those who were comfortable.

A huge majority of those who replied said they felt uncomfortable or very uncomfortable even speaking about the subject. Clearly, a huge majority of the 615 surveyed didn't feel able to even respond to the survey.

"Putting them in women's sport is literally like going back in time and putting women at the bottom of the pile again and having to rebuild women back up again," an athlete said.

Other comments included:

"It makes it too much of an unfair playing field, regardless of what sport you are competing in."

"We are in a position of just trying to get that momentum and just trying to get female sport on a level playing field with the men, and almost now feel that there's decisions being made... and we're being marginalised again."

"I think allowing transgender athletes to compete in women's sport would be the end. It would be like going back in time."

https://www.bbc.com/sport/68564019

volchitsa

Interesting article. Better late than never from the BBC.

Something that strikes me is that out of 615 surveys sent out, there was a less than 25% response rate, but of the 143 responses, 100 were uncomfortable. So about 70% of those who responded said they were uncomfortable. That's pretty massive.

But there's another thing. They also said massively (96 for/20 against) that they didn't feel able to say so openly. Which suggests that of the 500 who didn't reply at all, many will have refused to reply from fear of getting involved, rather than because they didn't care either way.

That speaks volumes IMO, and reinforces the view that women really have a problem with trans women in their sports.

Obviously we can't say that ALL of those non-respondents were too afraid to respond, but extrapolating from the responses given, there will be certainly be some or even many of them who were.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121938746#Comment_121938746

Interesting article. Better late than never from the BBC.

They asked a similar question in 2020:

22. Do you feel rules around transgender athletes are fair in your sport?

Yes: 82 (15.3%)

No: 82 (15.3%)

Don't know: 311 (57.9%)

Not applicable: 62 (11.5%)

The BBC Elite British Sportswomen's Survey was sent to 1,068 women in 39 different sports and received 537 responses. It is the third time BBC Sport has carried out the survey. The first one was in 2013 and the second in 2015.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/53593459

The question wasn’t asked in 2015 or 2013:

2015: The anonymous questionnaire was sent to 568 women in almost 40 different sports, with 339 responding.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/32995799

2013: A total of 503 athletes were asked to take part, of which 252 responded in the time frame. The survey was anonymous.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/21705510

It can’t be concluded from their non-response that anyone was actually afraid to respond, given the survey was anonymous.