Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121988051#Comment_121988051

I’m not a lesbian either (do we really have to start saying that now? 🤨), and I’m not a woman either, and I’ve done sports at various levels throughout my life, and never experienced it from either men or women in in sports at least. I’m not so wrapped up in my own world though that I’m not aware of other people who have been victims of sexual abuse in sports at the hands of both male and female perpetrators.

It’s most certainly not ‘a masculine behaviour’, and certainly not enough of them to be a fact of life for anyone, regardless of their sex. That’s why it’s generally regarded as repulsive when it does happen, to anyone regardless of their sex or sexual orientation or any other characteristics. That’s why it’s not the case that anyone should be dishonest and agree with you when they know what you’re declaring as fact simply isn’t true, and nobody is required to rely on anecdotal evidence based solely upon their own individual experiences or lack thereof, to make that point either:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121988144#Comment_121988144

And that has been widely noted as being due to the ridiculous notion of recording male sex crimes by those “identified” as female as female crimes.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121988144#Comment_121988144

Thanks for that. A man telling me that young women aren't regularly harrassed or targetted by men when out in public.

Lucky you're there to put us women right.

FFS

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121988202#Comment_121988202

No problem, I’d tell you the same if you were a man coming out with that kind of fearmongering BS. A small minority of Feminists tried it a couple of years ago with the whole ‘rape culture’ nonsense, got nowhere, because it simply couldn’t be taken seriously. I wouldn’t just expect you to take my word for it though, try the largest organisation in the US, part of whose mission is to inform the public about sexual violence and rape and dispel the politically, socially and culturally motivated myths:

https://time.com/30545/its-time-to-end-rape-culture-hysteria/

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121988281#Comment_121988281

Jesus that’s a new low, the misogyny dripping from this post.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121988199#Comment_121988199

Widely noted by whom? It hasn’t been widely noted at all, because it’s largely ignored. There was an attempt by a group in the UK to make the claim you’re making alright when recent figures were released of a rise in the number of female perpetuators (that is, reported by the victim as female, not just recorded as female), but the group were obviously trying to mislead people at the time:

Between 2015 and 2019, the numbers of reported cases of female-perpetrated child sexual abuse to police in England and Wales rose from 1,249 to 2,297 - an increase of 84%.

…

Up to 16% of those abused in residential care and 6% of those abused in other institutional contexts such as schools, sports and religious settings said female perpetrators were involved, according to data from victim reports to the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse (IICSA)

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-55338745.amp

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121988288#Comment_121988288

I don't know whether OEJ is aware of the origins of his belief that women are as likely to be sex offenders as men but are just getting away with it more often, but it does actually have, if not a grounding then at least an attempt to create a sociological/philosophical basis for the claim: a sociologist called Otto Pollak who in the 1950s proposed an explanation for why there are so few female offenders compared to male offenders.

His thesis was that female offending is just 'more hidden' because women, as a whole, are more secretive and deceptive than men as a whole. Why? Because women are used to lying about and hiding when they menstruate and because women can fake sexual arousal and orgasm and men cannot.

He argued on the basis of these observations that women's crimes are thereby more hidden.

There's no attempt at explaining where all the dead bodies of the two men a week* murdered by their female partners without anyone noticing are of course, nor why the police are still failing to find all these thousands of female offenders committing assaults, bank robberies and burglaries.

So that's where Jack is coming from. Whether he's conscious of that or not.

That's why there's no point in trying to reason with him. It's not a view based on logic, but on the age-old tradition of men hating and fearing women.

It's a small step from those claims about the "deceptive" nature of women to suspecting that their real fears of deception by women concern their children.

• (UK feminicide figures - 3 a day in the US)

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121988369#Comment_121988369

I don't know whether OEJ is aware of the origins of his belief that women are as likely to be sex offenders as men but are just getting away with it more often…

That’s not a belief I subscribe to at all, and I don’t agree with Pollacks assertions either. They’re clearly a load of rubbish, which is I guess the point you’re making about them, and one thing at least we can agree on.

No, what I’m countering is your opinion that the behaviour is attributable to biology. It clearly is not. In order to support the idea that it is as you put it, ‘a masculine behaviour’, it would mean that it is a characteristic of masculinity, or a trait of the male sex. It’s not, and we know this because the vast, vast majority of men do not engage in the behaviour, never mind the corollary of that which is that women, by virtue of their sex, are incapable of engaging in the behaviour. Neither of those propositions are true, and we know that from the data which is available.

That’s why I made the point counter to yours that while I fully accept that you’d never experienced it in sports, I’ve never experienced it in sports either, but I’ve known women who have experienced sexual abuse at the hands of other women in sports. I don’t need to be a woman to know that. But like I said - I don’t expect you should just take my word for it:

For both varsity athletes and non-athletes, most participants reported that the perpetrator’s gender was male, at 92 and 91% respectively. This is in line with previous research in sport (Bjørnseth and Szabo, 2018) and outside of sport (Dartnall and Jewkes, 2013; Tharp et al., 2013; Smith et al., 2017). A more surprising finding is that 30% of varsity athletes and 28% of non-athletes reported that the perpetrator gender was female. Research on sexual violence in sport involving female perpetrators is very limited. The study of Vertommen et al. (2017)pointed out that although male perpetrators were predominant, there was a notable proportion of female perpetrators in sport. Their results showed that 9% of athletes identified female perpetrators and 15% identified perpetrators of both sexes. This is supported by qualitative studies showing that female coaches or peer athletes could also be perpetrators (Johansson, 2018; Sanderson and Weathers, 2020).

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.861676/full

I’m talking about in an Irish context obviously, and many of the women and girls I’ve talked to are Irish, and they’ve spoken of their experiences at the hands of their peers in school sports and amateur sports, and for a few of them it was the reason they quit, whereas others did not, in spite of their experiences. They don’t want to talk about it, I don’t want to talk about it, but we just know it has happened, if that makes sense?

So that's where Jack is coming from. Whether he's conscious of that or not.

I’m conscious of where I’m coming from, it’s clearly not from the same place that you’re trying to attribute to me based upon wherever you’re coming from. I have no idea where you’re coming from as by your logic, the same argument you’re using applies to the men in your life, whether they like it or not.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121988288#Comment_121988288

There was no indication of any hatred of women in my post? I’ve no idea where you got that from by me saying that if it were a man making the same point, I’d say the same thing.

I’d say the same thing because it’s simply not true that young women are regularly harassed or targeted by men when out in public. That point in itself had nothing to do with the point that women and girls participating in sports have been victims of sexual abuse where the perpetrator is female.

The fact that volchista had never heard of the phenomenon would certainly go some way towards explaining why she is of the belief that it is peculiar to males by virtue of their sex, as though it is biologically predetermined. I wouldn’t say her views are misandrist, just misguided (I’m being kind), similar to Lena Dunham’s doozy in failing to account for the fact that her beliefs about men also applied to the men in her life. Came a cropper when confronted with the fact that her beliefs did not correspond to reality:

"While our first instinct is to listen to every woman's story, our insider knowledge of Murray's situation makes us confident that sadly this accusation is one of the 3 per cent of assault cases that are misreported each year," they said.

"It is a true shame to add to that number, as outside of Hollywood women still struggle to be believed. We stand by Murray and this is all we'll be saying about this issue."

Dunham retracted the statement shortly after it was published, after it caused mass uproar from critics calling out her feminism and accusing her of only defending white women who came forward with #MeToo stories.

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/lena-dunham-aurora-perrineau-apology-rape-murray-miller-hollywood-reporter-a8669846.html

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121988667#Comment_121988667

So you're talking about an Irish context, and as supporting evidence you provide links to US "varsity" students?

May as well just admit that you're making it up as you go along.

Ask any woman whether she has ever been the object of any sort of unpleasant male behaviour towards her, and unless she's been kept away from society, the response from the VAST majority is Yes.

https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics

https://www.nsvrc.org/resource/facts-behind-metoo-movement-national-study-sexual-harassment-and-assault

81% of women and 43% of men reported experiencing some form of sexual harassment and/or
assault in their lifetime

When persons who had experienced some form of sexual harassment and assault were asked
about the perceived gender of the perpetrator/s in their most recent incident, 85% of women and
44% of men reported either one male or two or more males. In contrast, 30% of men and 3% of
women reported one female or two or more females

So sexual harassment of women by men is commonplace. In fact IME many women, especially older women, are so used to putting up with unwanted male attention, and dismissing it as unimportant (because any complaint from them would be dismissed or even turned against them) that most of the 19% who say they never experienced such harassment probably did but are in denial.

In comparison, 3% of women were harassed by women.

Which is my point.

Here's some information from Ireland BTW:

Half (50%) of young adults (those aged 18-24) experienced sexual
harassment in the last 12 months, compared with 7% of those aged 65 and
older.

Women were almost four times more likely to have experienced inappropriate physical contact (15%) than men (4%).

Almost nine in ten adults (87%) who experienced sexual harassment reported that the perpetrator was male.

• https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-svssh/sexualviolencesurvey2022sexualharassment/keyfindings/

(That may appear to be lower rates than the US link, but it's only within the last 12 months, not over a lifetime.)

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121989421#Comment_121989421

So you're talking about an Irish context, and as supporting evidence you provide links to US "varsity" students?

May as well just admit that you're making it up as you go along.

Hold on a second. I explained why I didn’t expect you would just take my word for a phenomenon happening which by your own admission, you weren’t even aware of. That’s why I had to provide objective evidence, as opposed to like you were doing simply relying on my own experiences and the experiences of women I know who, I can guarantee you I didn’t ask them anything about it.

Ask any woman whether she has ever been the object of any sort of unpleasant male behaviour towards her, and unless she's been kept away from society, the response from the VAST majority is Yes.

That’s not what you claimed originally, which is the claim I said is not true. This was your original claim:

young women are regularly harrassed or targetted by men when out in public.

Your claim isn’t supported by the evidence you provided, and what’s more, your “unless she’s been kept away from society” is even more absurd given that by far and away the vast majority of sexual abuse occurs within the family.

Why in the name of Jesus you’d think I should ask any woman about that is baffling. I don’t want to know.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121989573#Comment_121989573

Well of course you wouldn't ask. That's my point - you don't know. Why not believe it from women though? Especially when backed up by actual data.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121989650#Comment_121989650

I said I don’t ask them, from that you could have deduced that they tell me, even though I don’t want to know. It’s not that I don’t know, or that I don’t believe them. Genuinely scratching my head here at what way you’re reading my posts but even your assumption that the 19% who said they have never experienced it must be in denial suggests that you want to believe it’s 100%, as that would validate your claim making it irrefutable as far as you’re concerned.

You tried the same thing with me earlier suggesting that even if I’m not conscious of it, your ideas are where beliefs you attempted to attribute to me are coming from. There’s a word for that kind of behaviour volchista and I’d rarely use it as overuse tends to lead to complacency, but it fits the bill. I’m not going to say it but it’s evident from what you’re attempting to do.

ceadaoin.

I’d say the same thing because it’s simply not true that young women are regularly harassed or targeted by men when out in public. 

My pre teen daughter is already getting looks from men. Its something you notice as a woman and as a mother. She's already hearing boys at school make comments about girls bodies and it makes her very uncomfortable. I don't expect a man to understand but to deny that this is a common experience for females is ridiculous. I guess us women just really are lying liars 🙄

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121989797#Comment_121989797

Contrary to your belief, I’m not required to be a woman, or a mother to observe that a minority of girls and women, when out in public, regularly experience unwanted attention from a minority of men. To extrapolate from that, or even to attempt to extrapolate from the statistics that volchista provided, that young women as a whole, regularly experience being harassed or targeted by men when out in public, takes some doing.

I didn’t call you or anyone else a liar btw, that’s just playing the victim. I don’t doubt your experience, or that of your daughter, it’s the extrapolation is just not credible when there’s little evidence to suggest it, let alone support the idea.

All that’s an attempt to do is to convince young girls and women that they must be in constant fear for their lives as they are in constant danger. That kind of hypervigilance is mentally, physically and emotionally exhausting, and taken to extremes can be debilitating to the point where an individual feels they have no choice but to withdraw from society in order to protect themselves. Ultimately it has the opposite effect of its intended effect.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121989965#Comment_121989965

I think you’re misunderstanding my argument though I’m at a loss as to why, given that I explicitly pointed out that data which covered only a 12 month period would obviously be much lower than a woman’s experience over her whole lifetime.
IOW I’ve never said that women are harassed every single time they set foot outside the door.

So you’ve been trying to disprove a straw man.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990058#Comment_121990058

I cannot understand how anyone could possibly defend the inclusion of biological males in women's sport, as if it were some deep and legitimate college philosophy debate.

The desperate, deliberately convoluted, irrational, persistent, flawed, discriminatory attempts and obfuscation to justify the very obviously unjustifiable is beyond my comprehension.

It demonstrates that it's possible for any idea to gain traction if there's enough belief in the idea, even if the idea itself is wrong. It's faith-based, and it shows.

It's utterly baffling. It's ethically wrong on so many fundamental levels.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990058#Comment_121990058

I understood your point perfectly, it’s one I’ve only ever heard from women who call themselves Feminists, though that’s not to suggest all Feminists think that way, they’re very much a minority of Feminists. It’s an extraordinary claim even to try and suggest that young women are regularly harassed and targeted by men when out in public, and there’s no good that can come out of it, unless you wish to transform society into something akin to societies in the Middle East where women are not permitted to be out in public without a male relative, because I guarantee you men wouldn’t suffer for the idea of women needing protection from men!

It reminds me of the time when on a night out I met a girl who had been on my team in work, I’d been gone from the place about two years, but at the time it was all girls, and as we were catching up she says that they’d all assumed I was secretly gay because I’d never tried it on with any of them. I didn’t know what to say because all I was thinking was even if I weren’t married, I’ve never shat on my own doorstep, meaning I just don’t do that sort of thing in the workplace. It didn’t help to dispel her of her beliefs that we finished the night knocking back shots in a gay bar, but that was just because it’s the only place in town that serves generous shots and decent music!

Point being - you can make all the assumptions you want about people, it doesn’t mean they’re true, and it certainly doesn’t justify treating them, or anyone for that matter, as though they are presumed guilty by virtue of association.

chopperbyrne

It's not an extraordinary claim. It's an accurate claim.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990267#Comment_121990267

If it were any way credible, there would be compelling evidence to support it and it wouldn’t need to be suggested that anyone ask any woman they know have they regularly experienced harassment or targeting by men in public, and if they don’t give the answer volchista wants, then they’re in denial, she doesn’t believe them, while asking me why I don’t believe women.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990323#Comment_121990323

LOL that might be a good point if the numbers were nearer 50:50, but they’re over 80% of women who’ve been harassed AND only 3% of those were by women.
That’s the vast majority of women and by an even bigger majority, harassed by men, no matter how you twist and turn.

Your original claim was that women were just getting away with harassment more than men.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990323#Comment_121990323

Not really, it’s clear by the misogynistic nature of your recent posts. You can hear the sneer in the word “feminists”.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990323#Comment_121990323

Why didn't this campaign that biological males should participate in women's sport emerge in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, 2010s — it was only until about a few years ago that this was pushed.

For sure, a tiny number of biological issues existed within sport over those many decades. That's to be expected, but it's not a campaign of rights.

Where was the concerted campaign over decades; like the gay rights movement over many decades?

It doesn't exist.

This is a wholly manufactured debate whereby some argue that biological males have a right to beat females in sport.

The debate itself is deliberately obfuscated to create the idea of legitimacy; the same way that flat-earthers and young earth creationists are very adept at making their way.

This is a version of the same problem.

And like those before it, it will eventually lose — eventually.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970914#Comment_121970914

My view of that video hasn't changed. I'm no expert in basketball and the referee called a foul, so presumably it was a foul, but you couldn't tell that from the obscured video. It is legal to grab the ball out of your opponent's hands, if you don't make contact with their body. If they are still holding the ball while you pull it away and you are much stronger, it's not hard to imagine the other player ending up on the floor, without a foul being committed.

The casual way the player with the beard was able to make the score afterwards, completely unchallenged, showed the disparity in strength with the opposing team imo.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990357#Comment_121990357

But there’s no question over the fact that the vast majority of victims of sexual violence are female, and the vast majority of perpetrators are male, that’s incontrovertible. What’s also incontrovertible is that they are a small minority of either women or men, and that’s not even coming close to supporting you claim that young women out in public are regularly harassed and targeted by men. That’s still not addressing the fact that the vast majority of sexual violence is committed within families. It wasn’t a mere curiosity that during lockdowns the number of calls to women’s domestic abuse hotlines soared!

Your original claim was that women were just getting away with harassment more than men.

That was never my claim, that’s something you tried to attribute to me after I countered your point that you being a woman and having played in sports at many levels had never heard of women abusing women in sports. Then when I provided evidence of the phenomenon, you moved the goalposts to comparisons to men, but that was never in question at all because there’s mountains of compelling evidence and data for that phenomenon.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990395#Comment_121990395

Ok I see where you’re coming from now. You’re conflating women with Feminists. Yeah, I don’t. Feminism is a political, social and economic philosophy which I have no time for whatsoever. Feminists themselves though are generally alright, those of course that I’ve met. I wouldn’t care to comment on those Feminists that I haven’t met.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990550#Comment_121990550

I get it now thanks. Women you’re ok with.

Women with an opinion who stand up for our sex based rights, them you don’t like. Got it.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990575#Comment_121990575

I never said anything about women with an opinion who stand up for their sex based rights, whatever that means, but crack on if needing to believe that makes you happy 👌

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990598#Comment_121990598

All that was missing from that post was a patronizing “dear”.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990720#Comment_121990720

You’re completely off topic here. I presume that’s deliberate from you, but maybe the rest of us could get back on topic now. I think we’ve tolerated enough whataboutery.

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990795#Comment_121990795

Well not really off topic, he's saying one is more likely to abused by family members than non-members, making any kind of 'safe spaces' for women in public unnecessary.