Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950074#Comment_121950074

Having read the document, it’s not clear how you came away with the impression that there are no gender categories in sports, when the whole point of the document was offering guidance to organisations involved in sports, in terms of their policies and so on. The document even gives examples of organisations in some countries in which sports organisations whose domestic policies contradict those of the sports international federations.

What people cannot demand is a special exception to that rule. Why? Because that would be discriminatory…

It’s a curious interpretation which regards special exceptions to rules as discrimination, without recognition that fundamentally the rules are discriminating against particular groups is the reason special exemptions are required, such as Therapeutic Use Exemptions for athletes with specific medical needs requiring medications or drugs which are otherwise prohibited by WADA or whatever governing body or policy applies.

A much more curious oversight is the absence of recommendation of legal affairs officer among the recommendations of roles which constitute a a task force in relation to policy matters, though that role may potentially be fulfilled by the Sports Development Officer or the Equality Diversity and Inclusion lead, or entirely outsourced perhaps. It would certainly put to bed any uncertainty about what does or doesn’t constitute the conditions under which discrimination is permissible in Irish and International Human Rights Law.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950323#Comment_121950323

I can’t find the story now but there’s a cyclist today who is moaning about the fact that when competing against females, their time has to be slower - they actually slow down so the female cyclists aren’t left so far back.

Cycling is a sport where a male body is more suited (a narrower pelvis and larger lung capacity).

ProfessorPlum

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950330#Comment_121950330

There's a whole sub-section on the law, and big bold letters with double asterixis, imploring NGBs to get legal advice when making policy.

THE LAW
**As referenced at the start of this document, this document does not constitute legal advice. Any
organisation seeking to develop policy in this area is encouraged to seek its own legal advice.**

There's also a whole section entitled "Inclusion". Sadly none entitled "safety" or "fairness", while at the same time accepting that " most sports consider the requirements of fairness and safety necessitate separate sex categories above the age of 11"

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950049#Comment_121950049

It would have been nice if they could have done it without using religious language. "Assigned at birth" my hole.

ProfessorPlum

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950575#Comment_121950575

True. Unintended consequences by inadvertently allowing inclusion of male DSD athletes in female competition (such as the entire podium of the women's 800m at the Rio Olympics)

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950615#Comment_121950615

That’s an interesting issue - I wasn’t aware of that!

eeepaulo

In all, several thousand people interacted with this process, both directly and indirectly, and we have a
good understanding of the issues we face in helping sports navigate this complex environment.
The results showed us that there are very differing opinions about how best to include everyone in
sport. While many from the LGBTI+ community, transgender and non-binary people and their families,
are supportive of inclusion through self-identification, this view is not shared by the vast majority of
people working and taking part in sport who favoured protection of a female category (as assigned
at birth). Across all groups there was modest support for entry into the female category through
requirement such as testosterone suppression. When the general public was surveyed through the
Irish Sports Monitor, results were more spread, with some support for inclusion, but more so for
categorisation based on sex assigned at birth.

I assume they will release %s, be interesting to see what vast means in relation to sportspeople.

The obvious advantage males have over females is recognised, as well as the retained advantage.

It just confirms what everyone who has any involvement in sport knows.

I've no doubt there will be a wall of text and links about what women need and really mean shortly.

ProfessorPlum

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950345#Comment_121950345

https://x.com/i_heart__bikes/status/1772805467506421969?s=20

This one?

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950575#Comment_121950575

"Assigned at birth" implies that before birth, it is not possible to know the biological sex of the developing foetus.

Of course, that's another falsehood echoed by those who care only about furthering their own ideological obsession. We understand perfectly well what sex the foetus develops into. It's a non-negotiable reality. It cannot be argued away, however much they try to crowbar nonsense into this manufactured debate.

I actually disagree with others who say it's akin to a religion. It's not religious because there is no higher authority.

But that said, it's a cult.

And like all cults, it weaves together a stream of irrational beliefs in the furtherance of what they believe to be a good and righteous cause. Not everyone, of course, but the activists and those who side with activists.

The idea that biological males should be allowed to compete in women's sport, that women should effectively be told by biological males to "stay in their place", wreaks not only of cult-like delusion but also a quite disgusting level of misogyny, gaslighting, and outright contempt for women's rights.

All I can say is thank goodness society is waking up to this flagrant assault on women's rights (albeit slower than I would have liked).

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950940#Comment_121950940

that’s the one, thank you!!!

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950675#Comment_121950675

That particular condition only affects people with xy chromosomes, aka males.

Caster Semenya is 100% biological male and 0% female, and has testes which produce this "high level of testosterone" aka normal levels for a man

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950500#Comment_121950500

Yes I saw all that, but the part I was specifically referring to was guidance about the establishment of a task force (task group, I misquoted earlier), and legal counsel, or a legal affairs officer, being conspicuous by it’s absence:

I did mention at the time that the role may be otherwise fulfilled; depends really upon the size of the organisation, structure and governance (a discussion beyond the scope of this thread - https://www.rdj.ie/insights/time-to-tackle-legal-liabilities-of-unincorporated-sporting-associations), but while larger Irish sports organisations will already be lawyered up, smaller organisations may not, and they might be misled by members of the organisation who imagine declaring something like this means they’ve got it sewn up:

Only sex-based categories.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950714#Comment_121950714

It just confirms what everyone who has any involvement in sport knows.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950615#Comment_121950615

It was neither unintended nor inadvertent given the WA wrote an entirely separate policy document relating to athletes with DSDs. Caster Semenya’s exclusion from specific events is because she refuses to take the meds which are intended to lower her testosterone levels. Numerous reasons for refusing to take the medication, but primarily because she views the policy as discriminatory:

https://www.reuters.com/sports/athletics/semenya-says-discrimination-verdict-was-long-time-coming-2023-07-12/

https://worldathletics.org/download/download?filename=2ffb8b1a-59e3-4cea-bb0c-5af8b690d089.pdf&urlslug=C3.6A%2520%25E2%2580%2593%2520Eligibility%2520Regulations%2520for%2520the%2520Female%2520Classification%2520%25E2%2580%2593%2520effective%252031%2520March%25202023

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951434#Comment_121951434

She can view it as discriminatory all she likes - biological males taking hormones currently only have to reduce testosterone levels to ten times that of a biological woman.

So even with medication, they have ten times the effects - muscle mass and power being just two. To put females on that level would require drugs that would have them banned for doping.

Yet one more reason why biological males do NOT belong in women’s sports.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951457#Comment_121951457

Biology most definitely does not work like that. It’s one of the reasons why Semenya refuses to take the medication - because there’s simply no way of knowing how it will interact with her physiology, neither it’s short-term, or long-term effects.

“I had to sacrifice myself to be the best that I am. There were days when I lived in the dark. Days where I didn’t want to wake up,” she remembers. “Those are the things that people don’t understand when World Athletics says: ‘Take this medication.’ **** them. Thosemotherfuckers must go take the medication themselves, then tell us how they feel.” She names both IAAF/World Athletics president Sebastian Coe, whom she calls “this idiot”, and the organisation’s health and science department director Dr Stéphane Bermon. “They’ll say: ‘Oh, these medications were well supervised.’ **** it – they don’t know **** about that.”

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/28/athlete-caster-semenya-interview-im-a-woman-im-a-different-woman

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951480#Comment_121951480

I have a reply about not knowing the long term effect of hormones but it would be slightly off topic so I will refrain and echo the previous poster and no longer engage as it’s achieving nothing.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951506#Comment_121951506

I have a fair idea what you have in mind, and I’d agree with you, which is why Semenya has taken her case as far as it will go to the ECHR - any outcome will not benefit her career personally at this point, but it will be the athletes who come after her will benefit from a decision which could force WA and other sports organisations to revise their policies. Probably not her children though as she doesn’t intend to allow them to compete in athletics:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/athletics/caster-semenya-bbc-sebastian-coe-world-athletics-b2443806.html

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951367#Comment_121951367

Only sex-based categories.

Yes, there are three options there, and "sex based categories" is only one of them. But, it's good to see that sex based categories have official backing now.

And in that context, they point out:

However, there are also options for trans
people to participate in sex based categories. There have
already been examples of transgender women competing
successfully in male sport, and transgender men competing
in female sport, and non-binary people in the category of
their birth.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951586#Comment_121951586

The point being that simply declaring adherence to sex-based categories, official recognition by Sports Ireland being neither here nor there, exemptions in the Equal Status Acts have always permitted exemptions in Irish Law:

Gender, age, disability and/or race/nationality 

The Acts allow people to be treated differently on the grounds of age, disability, and/or race/nationality in relation to:

• Sporting events, where the Acts allow people to be treated differently on the basis of their gender, age, disability or nationality in relation to providing or organising sporting facilities or events but only if the differences are reasonably necessary and are relevant;

https://www.ihrec.ie/guides-and-tools/human-rights-and-equality-in-the-provision-of-good-and-services/what-does-the-law-say/exceptions/

Imagining solely on the basis of one members opinion that it’s all sewn up, would be what’s misleading, and an organisation would be well advised to be aware of the legal implications involved for themselves and their organisation, which is what Sports Ireland obviously intended to do with that guidance document on policy development.

plodder

At least it's not as bad yet here as it is in Australia. Here's one part of a leaked conversation from the Twitter thread below. It's about the lesbian(*) soccer club that won all their games in a tournament recently (with five biologically male players).

'A couple of years ago one of the Flying Bats players broke one of our players legs in two places. She’s no longer playing football. As a small club I’ve lost 24 players and that’s a direct result of not wanting to play against the Flying Bats.'

So, that all happened 'a couple of years ago' but went under the radar, women "quiet quitting" presumably because kicking up a fuss is only going to cause trouble for those left behind, as you can see in the thread itself. Clubs that forfeit games for safety reasons are being punished, and if there is evidence of concerted action, then that is to be treated as "discrimination", a very serious matter presumably.

https://twitter.com/JohnRuddick2/status/1773170025710657816

(*) Note the added twist there. A lesbian women's soccer team presumably implies the trans women are physically attracted to women, an added bonus that the women have to deal with. It explains why the strongest objections to this stuff comes from lesbian women.

greyday

Ciara Kelly has an article in todays Independent that makes interesting reading.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121952597#Comment_121952597

That’s deeply disturbing to read. For the longest time there have been vile bigots who will tell lesbians they just need the right “d***”; there is an abhorrent “custom” in some parts of the world where “corrective rape” is practiced, sickening. Lesbians are marginalised doubly, for both their sex and their sexuality.

Yet now a sports team made up of lesbian women has half the side be biologically male and lesbian only venues such as clubs, speed dating events etc see violent protests unless they admit biological men.

How much homophobia and bigotry are we expecting these gay women to endure!?

ceadaoin.

There was a video posted here a while back of a male high school basketball player injuring a female during a match. Allegedly this person has been working their way through various girls sports and was even kicked off a rowing team for perving on girls in the changing room. Scroll down the Twitter thread and you'll see an non pixellated picture of this "girl", complete with a goatee, looking quite please with themself. How can this be defended?

https://twitter.com/MailOnline/status/1775408569493373273

(I await the wordy post about how actually, some women have beards,and one time a woman somewhere perved on other women so therefore this whole charade is fine and normal 🙄 Never mind the dick, balls and male strength. Irrelevant! )

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970914#Comment_121970914

But that never happens…. 😉😉😉

greyday

Eoin o Malley has a good article in the independent today.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970914#Comment_121970914

How can this be defended?

There’s nothing to defend there only this bit:

The student competed for a private rowing club in Massachusetts in 2021-22, before an alleged 'direct case of harassment' in her team's changing rooms.

 The March 20 report to the Senate Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee by Republican Senator Bill Cassidy used male pronouns for the student.

'The male athlete was caught staring openly at one of the female athletes while she changed her clothes in the women’s locker room and remarked, "oooh t*tties!"' it read.

'When a female athlete nearby asked if it was the first time he had seen female breasts, the male responded, "uhh yeah" with a laugh. The male athlete was suspended for this incident.'

The report also claimed she 'caused many issues for the female athletes' on the team and they avoided using the locker room because of her.

And nobody is defending that kind of behaviour. Anyone engaging in that kind of behaviour should be kicked off the team, regardless of their sex or gender or whatever else. I’d presume the same rule applies to all players equally.

Moopsy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121987194#Comment_121987194

Women don't this, we simply don't behave like this and gay women are included here. I am a gay woman with lesbian friends and we just get along with things normally. We don't act like the male in this incident because we are female.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121987938#Comment_121987938

And if you were the only lesbian in the village, I’d take your word for it. You’re not though, and the reason I know that is because throughout my life I’ve known plenty of women, not a great proportion of them lesbian I’ll admit, but just like most men, I already know most women don’t engage in that sort of behaviour either. It’s only a tiny minority of individuals who do, and the behaviour has nothing to do with their sex or sexuality, it’s just creepy as fcuk.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121987978#Comment_121987978

I'm not lesbian, and have done sport at various levels throughout my life, and I can say I have NEVER come across that behaviour from a woman. EVER.

Men though? Regularly. That's why it's inevitable that if males are allowed into what are supposed to be female spaces, rates of sexual assault will rise. Because it's a masculine behaviour. Not all males, sure, but enough of them to be a fact of life for all women.

So anyone who supports that is actively enabling abuse of women. They should just be honest about that and stop pretending it's not the case.