The Irish protocol.

rock22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119115458#Comment_119115458

Just some of the points you made in your past few posts

"You're attempting to absolve Nationalists of responsibility for supporting terrorists."

"Hang on, when some people vote DUP, it's somehow invalid but when it's the party associated with Republican terrorism it's fine."

"My Unionist relatives can vote how they want. "

It was you who introduced the idea that those people voting for SF were "supporting terrorists." while defending your relatives for voting DUP. From my perspective, the DUP were founded on terrorism.

Hence my question, do you ,,,,"absolve .. (your relatives ) of responsibility for supporting terrorists."

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119115550#Comment_119115550

No, I was extrapolating based on Francie's hateful generalisations of Unionists.

I'll be happy to answer your question once you justify its premise.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119115889#Comment_119115889

Nothing hateful said by me A.

You don't want to face up to what was endorsed by those who voted for anti Protocol parties. That's your issue, nobody else's.

rock22

A recent opinion poll seems to suggest a mixed view of the Protocol ( see the Journal)

• The proportion who think the Northern Ireland Protocol is “on balance a good thing” has more than doubled to 33% (15% in 2020), while 33% think it a “mixed bag” and 21% think it “on balance a bad thing”.

It appears to me that the benefits of the Protocol, i.e. a single island market and access to the EU, are not appreciated in NI by a majority. Surelty that is a failure of those political leaders who are supporting and arguing for the Protocol?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119115889#Comment_119115889

Sorry, Capall , don't wont to get into a back and forth about this.

Just that if every current nationalist voter has to justify his or her current support for SF based on previous actions of the IRA then arguably every DUP supporter could be asked to justify their current support for DUP based on the past actions and words of Ian Paisley. In my memory, he was certainly terrorising the Catholic population of Northern Ireland.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119115458#Comment_119115458

You advocated not voting for Sinn Fein because they were a party long associated with terrorists ergo you want people to vote for the DUP.

QED as per belligerent exclusionary nationalist logic.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119116353#Comment_119116353

Unfortunately, this seems to be the case. I'm starting to understand why people vote DUP if nothing else based on the last few pages of this thread.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119116349#Comment_119116349

Since you can't justify the premise of that loaded question, I'm going to stop with this.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119116362#Comment_119116362

SF no longer advocate for a paramilitary response. Do you get this at all and the import of it?

Party's evolve. And SF have upheld what they agreed to do when they signed up to the GFA. They do not block rights and have zero sectarian policies.

The DUP/TUV patently haven't lived up to the GFA and never signed up to that Agreement in the first place. They are the only ones blocking rights by nefarious means and they attempt to rule by imposing their religious fundamental views on others.

If you have been voting for the DUP since the GFA, when there were other options then I'm sorry A, you stand indicted of endorsing what they have been doing since then.

rock22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119116368#Comment_119116368

Against my better judgement, I will respond by saying that I have justified that premise at least twice.

But I think it is a good idea for you to stop digging.

We all have to move on. Justifying opposition to the Protocol on the bases of past purely sectarian politics , is just ridiculous.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119116789#Comment_119116789

You haven't remotely, instead twisting what was said in a sectarian manner.

But yes, let's move on.

rock22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119116811#Comment_119116811

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119116811#Comment_119116811

Sorry Capall,

I never intended to say anything sectarian. Perhaps i was a bit careless in my choice of words?

You have no obligation to answer anything I said. As you say, , lets move on

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119115532#Comment_119115532

What goalposts?

It's not beyond the wit of anyone to assume that those voting for the TUV or DUP, who actively campaigned against the protocol and indeed in the case of the TUV campaigning against a Nationalist FM, to make the jump that they support those policies.

Of course one doesn't have to agree with everything a party stands for, but when the election is fought on those terms and seeing as there were other options available to the voters, then it stands to reason that a voter agrees with the platform that was campaigned upon.

If Sinn Féin campaigned on a continued violent campaign against the British State, then you'd have a point regarding nationalist voters supporting them, but they don't. So you can pack away the strawman.

It's not up to nationalism or indeed Francie to skirt around the blindingly obvious even if it makes you uncomfortable.

joeguevara

People who vote Sinn Fein in Northern Ireland are for the most part doing so because of their agreement in the Good Friday Agreement which is the overarching framework for deepening peace, political stability and reconciliation in Northern Ireland.

To suggest that the majority of people who do so because of paramilitary or indeed terrorist motives appears without merit because it would be the antithesis of it.

On the other hand, when leaders of unionist parties have an agenda of ‘if we can’t dominate, we won’t participate’, dismiss democratically elected votes, make NI ungovernable and dismiss an international peace agreement then it’s withdrawing from peace.

martinedwards

to the many folk who have started posts with "People in Northern Ireland vote......" may I ask how you know?

Unless you live here, or have done for long enough to get to discussing peoples voting.... you know nothing.

WHY people vote for SF or DUP? in the majority of cases its because their Da did.

very few folk actually read through the junk mail that comes through their door and vote based on the party claims.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119129007#Comment_119129007

Given the shift from Nationalists primarily voting SDLP and Unionists primarily voting UUP 20 years ago to both parties being practically wiped out today, and the massive upswing in APNI votes in the most recent Stormont election, I'd posit that your own assumption that people only vote X because their Da did couldn't possibly be the case for the MAJORITY of their voters, otherwise that majority would still be voting SDLP/UUP.

I do believe that a significant cohort vote SF as a vote against the DUP rather than a vote for them, and vice versa for the DUP.....as for how I know? Well because I did so myself for years when living in NI, and because I still know a lot of people from both communities who still do so today.

I'd also highlight that there are plenty of people along border counties who have never lived in NI, but have spent their entire lives working with and associating with people from NI, so I wouldn't be so quick to assume that just because someone hasn't lived in NI for what you consider an acceptably long time doesn't mean they haven't discussed voting trends with people from NI. Certainly there are a few armchair experts and folk who think they can preach to people from NI about what it is, 'really like', but be wary of the broad brush that covers everyone.

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119129007#Comment_119129007

The huge increase in support for Sinn Fein and indeed the Central Alliance Party is because they both accept the Good Friday Agreement, want to work to reconciliation, reform the government structures and in Sinn Féin’s case a United Ireland by peaceful means once the requirements of the GFA are met and exactly the same with CAP or a continued Union with the UK while following the framework. If they were voting for sectarian means they wouldn’t give that mandate.

On the other hand anyone who is voting for a party that don’t want to participate, disregard international peace agreements, renege on what was accepted notwithstanding the detriment to peace, reconciliation and political stability purely out of disdain for international law, Cannot justify it other than a vote against Peace and justice.

maccored

isn't the logic of this very simple? the unionists voted for Brexit, they got Brexit and now they are complaining about the effects of Brexit. Surely they should catch a grip and realise what they voted for? End of story really.

BonnieSituation

Why would Unionism change a habit of a lifetime and act like adults?

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119129007#Comment_119129007

With regard to your point regarding the majority of people voting SF in NI is because their Da did. Well if that’s the case the Da must have had a shed load of kids as first preference votes for SF has risen from 10% in the early 80s to 29% in the May 2022 elections.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119145167#Comment_119145167

Anything can be destroyed if there are those stupid enough to do it.

The strategic skills of Unionism might and probably will destroy the GFA but that will lead inexorably to a plebiscite of the people, most likely in the form of a border poll. My suspicions have been that is where Boris is pushing Unionism and they are looking like they will fall for it.

Why any Nationalist or republican would interrupt them, heavens knows.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119145167#Comment_119145167

Which is what? Tony Blair's opinion doesn't really count for much given he isn't in politics anymore. The DUP is the tail wagging the dog in this scenario, their bonafides are questionable pushing against a Protocol they supported as Best Case against a decision NI did not want.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119145167#Comment_119145167

Tony Blair also warned that a harder border in Ireland would lead to trouble again. Can you tell me why you say leo varadkar is threatening/encouraging trouble when he said that but not Tony Blair?

Jump_In_Jack

Anyone catch the Nolan show last night on BBC1?

He did a special on how bad the cost of living is affecting people in NI and how the DUP are still refusing to enable an assembly to release funds allocated to NI.

Don't normally watch the show but it was a pretty grim reality check, and looks like public opinion is against the DUP, and in another few months they will most likely lose a lot of seats in the next election.

Snugbugrug28

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119145167#Comment_119145167

I think Tony has capitulated now to Brexit.

The best outcome for him now is one that the UK don't deserve i.e. a better deal than the one they agreed but because the EU have zero trust in Boris Johnson's government, it's 'well nigh' impossible.

The UK need to realise that the utopian vision they have for Brexit is not going to happen. I don't understand why they can't countenance a Norway deal, Norway is doing great.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119129007#Comment_119129007

thats balls - and I say that as someone who grew up and voted there. I didnt even know who my dad voted for until years later

FrancieBrady

Does even lamer duck Johnson now pick a bigger fight with the EU or does he back off because he hasn't the power anymore and the EU can just wait him out?

Interesting times.

Kermit.de.frog

Tony Connelly saying legislation allowing the UK to unilaterally make sweeping changes to the protocol will be introduced Wednesday or Thursday.

I suspect the EU will continue their softly softly approach which has not and will not work to dissuade the Tories.

Snugbugrug28

Well the Tories have yet to actually 'do' anything. The EU has rightly waited for actual action and not just blether.

If Volodomyr Zelensky had 2 seconds to fart he might realise his greatest ally Johnson is actually the greatest threat to Western unity right now

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170878#Comment_119170878

Introducing the legislation is actually not doing anything either.

Ball being kicked to touch is the most appropriate metaphor for it.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170437#Comment_119170437

Haven't you been parroting this, "the Brits are winning, just you wait and see....it's just round the corner' diatribe since the Brexit vote passed, Kermit?

You'll excuse me if I don't hold my breath for the latest of your many predictions.